TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Intern’s death puts banking culture under microscope

158 pointsby bitopsalmost 12 years ago

28 comments

SeanDavalmost 12 years ago
As someone that worked at that exact office for many years and then thankfully got out of that rat race I can sympathize with someone being exposed to the culture that exists there.<p>Generally people work ridiculous hours because they want to. They do it because the environment is highly competitive and the rewards can be huge. It is not the place for sensitive people, or indeed people with ethics and morals. It is all about the buck$ and screw the rest. People that can make money are Gods, even if their decisions only make money in the short term, no-one cares - all that matters is the next quarterly result and the annual bonus.<p>There is a reason that Merrill Lynch is now called Bank of America Merrill Lynch, their short term decisions came back and bit them in the ass and they got bought out. I doubt that any lessons were learned. Lots of lip service but I would be beyond stunned with surprise if any meaningful changes have taken place - the fact of this intern&#x27;s death probably means I am correct, although of course nothing has been determined as to any link or otherwise.<p>I am probably over dramatizing here but if you value your soul, stay the heck away from Big Investment Trading &amp; Commodities Houses.
评论 #6255901 未加载
评论 #6254619 未加载
jmdukealmost 12 years ago
If you think this stuff is interesting from both a &quot;what the hell is going on here&quot; standpoint and a &quot;no, really, what&#x27;s it like in an investment bank?&quot; standpoint, read <i>Liar&#x27;s Poker</i> by Michael Lewis. It&#x27;s a pretty interesting look at Wall Street in the late 80&#x27;s, and it does a good job of avoiding an outright demonization of the industry while offering an honest appraisal.<p>As an aside note, I&#x27;m always amused when I hear my tech friends lambast investment bankers&#x27; crazy work schedules and then go on to brag about pulling an all-nighter Thursday and then hit up a hackathon after work on Friday. (Just because you get free beer and t-shirts doesn&#x27;t mean its not unhealthy.)
评论 #6254390 未加载
评论 #6254565 未加载
评论 #6254382 未加载
评论 #6254987 未加载
评论 #6255020 未加载
spiredigitalalmost 12 years ago
Right out of college I took an investment banking job, and it didn&#x27;t take me too long to realize it definitely was NOT what I wanted to be doing for the next 10 to 20 years of my life.<p>I had it relatively easy - working for a small firm, our hours were more in 50 to 80 hour range - so not nearly as stressful as many. But it was still pretty brutal, especially when things got busy.<p>I worked with good people and it&#x27;s not true that all bankers are insanely greedy and immoral. I met some of the best people I&#x27;ve ever known in the banking world, and also some real scumbbags. But one stereoype is true: just about everyone I worked with was insanely driven and incrediblely competitive.<p>Already a skinny guy, I dropped at least another 10 to 15 pounds due to the long hours and no lunch hour. Most of the guys simply ate soup at their desk so they could get more work done. I remember my out-of-town girlfriend coming into town for a rare weekend visit and I spent 8 hours at the office on a Sunday. That might have been the day I vowed to quit.<p>So I started saving my money like a miser, and after a few years had enough in the bank to quit cold turkey. Had no idea what I was going to do, but just let them know I was done at the end of my two-year commitment.<p>At my going away party, the wives of my co-workers secretly told my girlfriend she was incredibley lucky I was getting out and were happy for her.<p>I ended up starting an eCommerce business and have been doing that - and loving it - for the last 5+ years. Apart from marrying that incredible woman who stuck with me when I was in banking, leaving to pursue a more balanced life was the best decision I&#x27;ve ever made.<p>If anyone is interested in the full story, I wrote a blog post about it here:<p><a href="http://www.ecommercefuel.com/my-corporate-escape-story/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ecommercefuel.com&#x2F;my-corporate-escape-story&#x2F;</a>
评论 #6255339 未加载
评论 #6255034 未加载
评论 #6255314 未加载
评论 #6255072 未加载
mynameisherealmost 12 years ago
What exactly are they doing during those 100+ hours a week? Fiddling with MSFT Excel? It&#x27;s easy to imagine a programmer working 100+ a week, since there&#x27;s never a real end-point to software. It can literally go on forever if you please.<p>But...finance? I can&#x27;t imagine even Black–Scholes required that kind of crazy dedication.
评论 #6255045 未加载
评论 #6254706 未加载
评论 #6254760 未加载
评论 #6257019 未加载
AznHisokaalmost 12 years ago
I worked a couple of years in a company called BlackRock. There&#x27;s a group there called PAG (Portfolio Analytics Group), made up of mostly fresh college graduates. In the beginning, the head of the program would feed us the Kool-Aid about how the long 16 hour days would be so worth it after a year or 2. Sure, we&#x27;d be half-awake when we came in at 6 AM, and half-dead when we got to leave at 10 PM.<p>The kicker was he told us while it&#x27;d be tempting to just go home and sleep after we left, we should instead head straight to the GYM and workout for 30 mins, then go to the bar for a few hours because it would keep our &quot;sanity&quot;. Hah.. sure, you know what else would keep you sane? QUITTING and working elsewhere.
评论 #6254607 未加载
评论 #6254980 未加载
aswansonalmost 12 years ago
The banking culture...how can such idiotic counterproductive mores dominate the allocation of capital...or more colloquially...how does bullshit still rule. we as makers, innovators, and inventors have to topple the inefficient stupidity of the system, as is. I honestly believe we are the only ones on the planet that can correct this stupidity of the suits.
评论 #6254122 未加载
评论 #6254252 未加载
评论 #6254257 未加载
评论 #6254995 未加载
评论 #6254467 未加载
评论 #6255721 未加载
评论 #6255264 未加载
评论 #6254154 未加载
olefooalmost 12 years ago
Well, clearly the answer is put a price on the lives of the sweet young things who are so eager to throw themselves into the jaws of Moloch. I mean that would be the Capitalist solution; and it would make banking into an heroic activity once again; and if telecast would surely outrank many other reality shows...<p>Think of a nine-week show called The Bankers Ordeal that would use go-pros to record every moment of the grueling work schedule that would not stop until one of the contestants fell. A riveting tribute to the allure of capitalism, how heart rending to see the contestants lined up at the start; one of them sure to die in the service of the only god our society worships unreservedly. Truly it would be a revival of the ancient tradition of the sacrificial lamb.
bigbossmanalmost 12 years ago
Another point no one has mentioned...banking summer interns almost never do anything critical. If he needed to work 70+ hours straight, he probably was really slow at whatever shit work he was doing. (Young bankers reading this, learn all the Excel shortcuts!)<p>Good bankers know how to manage expectations. Who knows what this kid was working on, but it&#x27;s easy to ask the graphics department for presentation help, the India team to pull some data, other bankers for help with numbers, etc. There&#x27;s literally nothing he could have been doing that someone else in his firm hadn&#x27;t done before.<p>Erratic hours are part of being an investment banker, but what this kid was doing <i>to himself</i> sounds completely unnecessary.
lhhalmost 12 years ago
I spent two years working as an analyst at a &quot;bulge bracket&quot; (ie top 10) investment bank in NYC (plus a summer as an intern). It seems that a lot of HNers are unfamiliar with the world of I-Banking, so here&#x27;s the my view of what it&#x27;s like, or at least what it was like in my group at my bank (though I believe my experience generalizes fairly well):<p>Analyst jobs are extremely competitive to land. It&#x27;s an intensive interview process, and the vast majority of analysts do an internship first and are then hired on full time for the following year. As you might imagine, the job pays very well. Market rate at a bulge bracket firm for a first year analyst is $10k signing bonus, $70k base salary, and anywhere from $0 to ~$85k in bonus, though typically bonus is in the $55k - $75k range, depending on individual, group, and bank performance. As a second year, base and expected bonus each receive a $10k bump. Plus dinner is paid for every night, and lunches as well on weekends, which adds up to about another $10k. Most banks have a two year analyst program. A small percentage of analysts stay for a third year if offered (maybe 10%), and maybe 50-75% of those continue on to become associates, which puts them on track to eventually become a senior banker. Most associates were never analysts, but were instead hired in after doing an MBA.<p>After putting in the time as an analyst, a host of other opportunities await. Those with bulge bracket investment banking experience get all sorts of attention from recruiters. Many go on to work in private equity or for a hedge fund, both of which tend to pay significantly more than banking but with much more sane hours and a far better quality of life. Others do things like biz dev or take other misc finance roles. A very select few decide to go the startup route (eg this guy).<p>The combination of perceived prestige, high pay, and quality exit opportunities draw legions of juniors and seniors to apply. Senior bankers know that the role is in extremely high demand, and therefore they tend to be very tough on their analysts. If one analyst burns out, there are hundreds more frantically trying to network their way in to take their place.<p>There&#x27;s a very clear divide between what a senior banker does and what a junior banker does. Senior bankers are glorified sales people. Their job is to maintain relationships (and develop new ones) with clients so that when the client decides to do a deal (any sort of M&amp;A, financing, or restructuring), they&#x27;ll hire the bank that employs said senior banker to execute&#x2F;advise on the transaction. A junior banker&#x27;s job is to do anything and everything that senior bankers tell them to do.<p>Junior bankers have very little control over their own lives. They&#x27;re staffed on many projects at once (at one point I had 12 different projects I was juggling), and usually have minimal say on what projects they&#x27;re assigned. These projects are generally all with different sets of people. Each senior banker tends to have a sub-industry and group of clients they cover, but junior bankers get shuffled around to work on any project that needs staffing. This staffing is determined by a &quot;staffer&quot; (usually a semi-senior banker), which is entirely discretion based. They try to make an effort to make the distribution of work equitable, but they have their job to do outside of being a staffer, and being a good staffer doesn&#x27;t advance their career in the slightest, so they&#x27;re not incentivized to really get this right. The work generally goes to the analyst that looks&#x2F;seems the least busy.<p>I can&#x27;t begin to describe how fucked up of a dynamic this creates. Insidious, underhanded politics. Analysts essentially forced to stay at the office until everyone above them has left the office regardless of whether or not they have anything to do. If you leave before the staffer leaves, you&#x27;re guaranteed to get hit with the next staffing. If you leave before everyone above your level has left, they&#x27;ll be bitching the next day about how they&#x27;re working so hard even the analysts are leaving before them. Analysts subtly dropping hints to senior bankers about how much harder they&#x27;re working than the other analysts, both in an effort to get staffing diverted away from themselves and because analysts all get ranked against each other at the end of the year, which determines their bonus. Analysts are ranked on a bell curve against each other, and bonus payouts among them are a zero-sum game. Recruiters and interviewers will ask you point-blank what your ranking and compensation was.<p>Analysts carry a blackberry with them at all times, and a staffing can blow up their next two weeks literally at any moment. You live in constant fear that that little red light blinking on your blackberry isn&#x27;t another staffing or fire drill (ie &quot;emergency&quot; work that needs to be done immediately). You can&#x27;t plan anything. Being too slow to respond to emails, including at midnight on weekends, is grounds for getting sat down for a stern conversation in a conference room. My blackberry was never more than 20 ft away from me for two solid years.<p>My average day was about 9:30am - 12:30am on weekdays, and about noon to 6pm on weekends. I didn&#x27;t have my first day off, including weekends, until 4 months into the job. Sometimes it was as light as 50 hours per week, and sometimes as bad as 110+. Some of the time you actually have so much work to do that you&#x27;re eating every meal at your desk and working solid the entire time, especially if you&#x27;re working on a live deal, but a lot of the time you&#x27;re just waiting around for other people to get back to you. They give you some work to do on a document or presentation, you spend a few hours doing it and get it back to them, and then you wait for them to get it back to you for another round of edits. You&#x27;ll usually be doing this with 4 or 5 projects at a time, all with varying levels of complexity and urgency. This is one good part about the job. During the &quot;day shift&quot;, life usually isn&#x27;t so bad. A lot of times you can get away with long lunches and frequent starbucks runs without anyone really noticing. But then after a fairly leisurely day, come around 5pm or so, the &quot;night shift&quot; starts. You&#x27;ll get edits to do for all of your projects at once and occasionally end up pulling an all nighter, even when the majority of the work you&#x27;re doing involves formatting charts, transcribing pages of handwritten notes, and various other trivial, mind-numbing tasks.<p>You&#x27;d be amazed at how much effort we&#x27;d be asked to expend on some task relative to the benefit that that task could possibly hope to provide. Like put together this 10 page weekly update for every company in X industry, including what research analysts said about them that week, what the media has said about them, individual product sales, graphs of their stock price movements and their valuation multiples, etc. All painfully slow, manual work. There were 40-50 companies in this industry. For an update that was sent to a single client. Unsolicited. When the CFO hated the senior banker who ordered the update and would never do a deal with him in his life. Doing mind-numbing work is one thing, but spending hours and hours doing it when you know it&#x27;s all for nothing is an indescribable feeling. I wanted to bash my head in with a stapler. It took me THREE MONTHS to finally convince the staffer to tell the senior banker it wasn&#x27;t going to happen anymore. All sorts of absurd shit like this was thrust upon us in the name of potentially winning business.<p>I could keep going and probably fill several volumes about how horrible of an experience it was, but I&#x27;ll stop there. The best day of my life to date was the day I turned in my blackberry and walked out of the building for the last time. I don&#x27;t think that the people I worked with were inherently evil or anything like that. All else equal, they&#x27;d be senstive to our well being. But at the end of the day, we were just another class of indentured servants, like the many classes they&#x27;d seen before us and the many they&#x27;d see after.<p>When I would describe my life to friends and people I&#x27;d meet that weren&#x27;t a part of the finance world, they would literally think I was making things up. The idea that someone would be willing to subject themselves to such insanity, or more accurately that an employer would demand it, wasn&#x27;t part of their world view. I assure you, it was really that bad. I&#x27;m a pretty stable person, but there were a couple times where I came very close to coming unglued. Somehow we managed to convince ourselves it was all worth it. The jury&#x27;s still out on that one.
评论 #6255989 未加载
评论 #6255346 未加载
评论 #6256936 未加载
评论 #6255658 未加载
评论 #6257326 未加载
评论 #6255375 未加载
评论 #6255927 未加载
评论 #6255851 未加载
评论 #6259312 未加载
评论 #6255929 未加载
robbykingalmost 12 years ago
I had a roommate who worked in the banking industry and kept similar hours. Her &quot;day off&quot; was an 8 hour work day on Sunday. One (late) night we had a drink together and figured out that while she made twice my salary annually, I made three times her&#x27;s hourly.
评论 #6254836 未加载
pilsetnieksalmost 12 years ago
&gt; In Japan, there’s a word for it. Karoshi refers to death by overwork, a legal term that allows surviving family to petition a judge for compensation for damages [..] we have no such legal designation of protracted corporate suicide.<p>Is <i>suicide</i> really the word that should be used here?
评论 #6254051 未加载
评论 #6254030 未加载
cpncrunchalmost 12 years ago
It&#x27;s ridiculous to think that working those kind of hours for 6 weeks is actually productive.
评论 #6254026 未加载
8ig8almost 12 years ago
This seems like hazing to me. _You don&#x27;t have to work all these crazy hours, but it might help if you want to join our club._<p>Also... Imagine if something even remotely similar happened at Walmart.
评论 #6254181 未加载
readmealmost 12 years ago
American culture does not yet recognize this as a problem. It should. &quot;Hard work&quot; is severely overvalued and even dangerous. The Japanese even have a word for it: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Kar%C5%8Dshi</a><p>Whenever someone like Moritz pulls 8 all nighters, there is some greedy, selfish, entitled, son of a bitch, benefiting from that.<p>When are we going to realize that capitalism is not the ideal and &quot;free&quot; system we idealize it as?
评论 #6255250 未加载
navsalmost 12 years ago
I&#x27;ve done much the same while both working and going to university. Still do. Is not the tech industry just as competitive? It might not force labor on you but however indirectly, long hours of coding with 0 sleep is considered a badge of honor. Freenode channels are full of users claiming they only slept x hours.
arbugealmost 12 years ago
I&#x27;m amazed the banking industry puts its interns to work right away - it looks like they have no difficulty coming up to speed very quickly if they&#x27;re working this hard. What exactly is it that banking interns are doing?<p>It always struck me from my personal interactions with them that lots of what tech industry interns do is have a good time...
评论 #6254126 未加载
评论 #6254409 未加载
评论 #6254316 未加载
评论 #6254626 未加载
morgantealmost 12 years ago
This is just insane, and sadly mirrors the experience of everyone I know interning in finance.<p>But do they also treat their tech&#x2F;engineering employees like this? I can&#x27;t imagine an engineer working 80 hours on Wall St. when they could make quite good money Facebook, etc. as well.
评论 #6255949 未加载
null_ptralmost 12 years ago
I think one sign of maturity is learning to watch out for your own well being, as a long-term investment in your own future.<p>These companies take advantage of young, immature people that are still finding their way and learning life&#x27;s many ropes. Unacceptable.
PedroBatistaalmost 12 years ago
No one will be charged with anything, maybe some pocket money will be offered to the family (maybe).<p>Either way, i found this topic kind of a &quot;uneasy&quot; to discuss in many industries, mostly because the glass houses.
jgammanalmost 12 years ago
there&#x27;s probably some &#x27;thinking fast, thinking slow&#x27; decision substitutions going on in the industry ie, i don&#x27;t want to acknowledge that i&#x27;m vastly overpaid for doing something that is likely to have net-zero value (or massively negative in the long term) so my brain switches to thinking that my salary is justified if i work absurd hours. that plus a chase the cheese mentality for all those alpha personalities.
kenster07almost 12 years ago
Perhaps the subprime crisis could have been avoided altogether if our banking sector wasn&#x27;t so sleep deprived. Seriously.
geeteealmost 12 years ago
As the person being overworked, at what point do you put your foot down and say this is ridiculous?
评论 #6259581 未加载
kyleblarsonalmost 12 years ago
Such a shame that people are willing to literally work themselves to death at a task that delivers no true value to society. Not really related, but it&#x27;s also extremely scary how much of this industry relies on convoluted, fragile excel spreadsheets.
评论 #6255024 未加载
评论 #6254478 未加载
评论 #6255257 未加载
tonethemanalmost 12 years ago
seriously... how long does it take to fuck people out of their money...
hardwaresoftonalmost 12 years ago
but for how long?
constapopalmost 12 years ago
If someone wants to know how one of those all-nighters in IB looks like, he should read this: <a href="http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-analyst-life-worst-day/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.mergersandinquisitions.com&#x2F;investment-banking-ana...</a><p>I have cousin who worked for Nomura in London and 100+ hours per week are normal thing in IB industry. I doubt that all-nighters were mandatory for interns, but it is very competitive environment and there are dozen of other interns&#x2F;students waiting for opportunity and ready to do it. Someone wrote its for the face-time but nobody pulls all-nighter for face time.
评论 #6254788 未加载
avtyalmost 12 years ago
Was it worth it?
AsymetricComalmost 12 years ago
Clearly, time has come to nationalize the banking system.
评论 #6254235 未加载