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Not the autoworkers of our generation

81 pointsby imskyover 11 years ago

12 comments

angersockover 11 years ago
As much as I&#x27;d like to agree with the author, the case stated is pretty holey.<p>To pick on the &quot;We&#x27;ll never be automated example&quot;:<p>It&#x27;s not that one day programs will write programs that write--oh wait, that&#x27;s already happened. It&#x27;s not that tools will come around that making throwing up a simple website with ecommerce functionality ea--shit, that happened too.<p>It&#x27;s that the core functions of software, from a business perspective, are pretty much nailed down now. It&#x27;s that the average dudebro with an MBA and half a brain can throw together an MVP and start getting market feedback. It&#x27;s that the homeless guy who lives down the street from me can publish an ebook from his acer.<p>The thing that we all love so much, the removal of gatekeepers and democratization of information capital? Yeah, so, that thing is what will put us out of jobs. And that&#x27;s fine.<p>The thing the author misses is not that there won&#x27;t be a few gigs around for people who need to optimize their database backends and red-black tree all the things and skiplist their twitters--it&#x27;s that the vast majority of things that used to require people to find a coder to help them are now a few buttons away.<p>Oh, and also that we&#x27;ve cultivated a user base so ignorant and attracted to simple glossy black boxes that they can&#x27;t appreciate what it is to have a real engineer along for the ride anyways, nor how to usefully communicate with them if they had one. That&#x27;s going to sting too.
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jimbokunover 11 years ago
I feel like neither the article, nor any of the comments here so far, mention a very obvious point.<p>The automation of tasks that formerly required writing software, are <i>automated by someone writing new software</i>.<p>This should be the normal, everyday experience of the software developer. Take the software you wrote yesterday, and write higher level software on top of it today to accomplish things you couldn&#x27;t before.<p>So automating the software jobs of yesterday out of existence will require the software jobs of tomorrow.<p>As for the computers writing their own software, that strikes me as indicating the Singularity has arrived, in which case all human jobs will be obsolete.
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clarky07over 11 years ago
Interesting that one of his examples, Wordpress, has contributed to lots of software jobs as well. Writing themes, plugins, etc can be fairly lucrative and probably more interesting than making a blog from scratch over and over.<p>The whole point of writing software is to make it so you don&#x27;t have to keep doing the same thing over and over. That doesn&#x27;t mean there aren&#x27;t new things to do. Software really is eating the world. If we run out of software jobs, it&#x27;s probably because we&#x27;ve automated literally everything else already.
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kamaalover 11 years ago
It will be too arrogant on our part to think we can&#x27;t be automated.<p>If you have used eclipse over the years you will see the kind of gradual automation happening there. Its not the kind of automation that produces code automagically all alone by itself. But software like eclipse pulls the barrier to entry too low to a point even people who understand nothing much about Java or in general about software can comfortable contribute to make a living out of it. And eclipse is only getting better with time. These days you can pretty much code complex Java application without even reading a book. I guess very soon, software like eclipse will fill-in-code-blocks as we express a intention. And then our job will be to stitch those blocks.<p>This is what is dangerous. And this kind of thing has the potential to drive the supply up very quickly. Thereby the wages decline.<p>There is no 1-1 mapping, between a automaker and programmer. But the theme is very common.<p>I am even damn sure we will soon make software a commodity to a point when people can think in terms of abstract software blocks. Just like how a common man can today think of a car in terms of engine, clutch, gear etc.
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wildgiftover 11 years ago
Aren&#x27;t programmers more like the engineers who made the cars? Their work product is not just the design but the assembly line and the process, and those things help produce parts and cars. The autoworkers are more analogous to the people who work within software-controlled workplaces. That would be the people who pack boxes at Amazon.com, or do data entry, or customer support.
Spooky23over 11 years ago
Software people are so arrogant. Auto workers arent and weren&#x27;t unskilled manual labor.
mseebachover 11 years ago
Both articles misses the mark. There are still autoworkers out there, just not in Detroit (OK, there are less of them, but they&#x27;re still there). Autoworking didn&#x27;t fail, Detroit (ie &quot;big auto&quot;) failed. And they failed because they spend all their energy building moats (trade policy, emissions policy, unions etc) rather than improving and innovating (like the asian auto companies excelled at and the european ones partly kept up with), so when the house of cards came down, it came down hard.<p>As long as we (software engineers) don&#x27;t sequester ourselves wholesale in a homogenous monolith but continuously keep up with innovation, we should be well equipped to respond to changes in the market in time. The first article touches on this in the last paragraph, but I&#x27;m not convinced it&#x27;s for the &quot;right reasons&quot;.
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tedsandersover 11 years ago
I&#x27;d like to talk about the claim that high-skill work is less likely to be automated than low-skill work. The author says:<p>&gt;On almost all points, Baugues misses the mark. First, there is a qualitative difference between an auto worker (unskilled manual work) and a software developer (skilled knowledge work) that made automating the former inevitable.<p>As a rebuttal, I would point to some passages from Martin Ford&#x27;s book on automation, The Lights in the Tunnel:<p>&gt;A common misconception about automation is the idea that it will primarily impact low paying jobs that require few skills or training. To illustrate that this is not necessarily the case, consider two very different occupations: a radiologist and a housekeeper....<p>&gt;In fact, we can reasonably say that software jobs (or knowledge worker jobs) are typically high paying jobs. This creates a very strong incentive for businesses to offshore and, when possible, automate these jobs....<p>&gt;As a result, we can expect that, in the future, automation will fall heavily on knowledge workers and in particular on highly paid workers....<p>In general, I think knowledge jobs are at greater risk of automation than manual labor jobs. Robots are expensive. And they also don&#x27;t scale as well as software. It&#x27;s no coincidence that the largest software companies dwarf the largest robot companies. Ultimately, because software can scale, it becomes ridiculously cheap when you deploy it to millions or billions of people.<p>I agree with your overall point that creativity and design are hard to automate. However, software jobs are being and will be automated. What matters in the end is whether automation increases or decreases the overall demand for development. I.e., whether software automation is a complement to labor or a supplement to labor. So far, it&#x27;s been a complement and software productivity has skyrocketed over the last couple of decades. This trend seems likely to continue, but who knows what the future holds 100 years from now.<p>P.S. Another industry that evolved similarly is agriculture. At first, tools and animals made farmers more productive, and farmer employment rose. But eventually, productivity rose so high that farmers started to saturate demand. Today, only 2% of Americans are farmers, despite farmers being the most productive of all time. So what&#x27;s the moral here? What can software learn from farming? I think the moral is that quantity supplied is a function of both SUPPLY of labor and DEMAND for labor, and you can&#x27;t ignore one when you predict the future.<p>P.P.S. You probably realize that the weakness of the agriculture comparison is that the hunger for food is far more easily sated than the hunger for software. The first has a biological limit, whereas the second is ostensibly unlimited. Therefore, you might reason, higher productivity in software is less likely to saturate demand and reduce employment. However, I would caution that some software demands might be easily saturated. Consider a company that wants its own website and app. If websites and apps become 100x cheaper (as a result of automation&#x2F;higher productivity), would businesses demand 100x as many? Probably not.<p>P.P.P.S. Not all manual labor is created equal. Repetitive, indoor labor is much easier to automate than non-repetitive or outdoor labor.
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nrivadeneiraover 11 years ago
Regardless of which article is correct (this one or the one it is referencing) in predicting the future of software employment, I think we&#x27;d all do well to keep an eye out for the future and be agile and ready enough if a Detroit-like situation does arrive. It should never be taken as a given that we&#x27;ll always be highly sought after and well paid. With that in mind, I find Baugue&#x27;s article much more useful considering I&#x27;ve never thought of an article that can be reduced to &quot;Things are great, I don&#x27;t think anything will change.&quot; to be of much help.
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wildgiftover 11 years ago
Autowork in the 1930s and beyond may have been semi-skilled, but before widespread automation, it was a craft, and cars were expensive. This de-skilling has always been happening in software. Back in the 80s, word processors were written in assembly. Today, they can be written in JavaScript.
melbourne_matover 11 years ago
It&#x27;s a pretty complacent article. How long until software development has good quality automation - of a kind that drastically reduces the number of jobs? I suggest it&#x27;s not as far away as the author thinks.
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michaelochurchover 11 years ago
There is something that can slaughter the job security of software engineers, but it&#x27;s not technological advancement.<p>Before I get to that, my personal forecast is: income expectancy for intelligent and hardworking people will continue to increase but so will variance. Eventually, the variance will become intolerable enough (sans regularization) that basic income will appear to be the only solution; even the smartest people will see a personal need for something like it. There will be a lot of struggling and fighting over implementation (e.g. do college graduates get more? how about families? should society incentivize or penalize reproduction?) but everyone will agree that it&#x27;s necessary. That&#x27;s probably about 30-50 years from now.<p>Okay, so what&#x27;s the #1 threat to software developers&#x27; job security? Not robots. We have robots that write code (compilers) and our jobs are still challenging. Instead, it&#x27;s upper-level complacency in society. An elite that would rather hold position and keep relative rank than grow society and gain absolute prosperity (but at a lesser rate than others, losing rank). Historically, this is the norm for elites. Many people, especially in positions of power (because power selects such people) would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven. If they can conspire toward self-protection and social mediocrity, they will. The good news is that, in a large and heterogeneous society, it&#x27;s actually very hard to hold any conspiracy together for very long. This is why conspiracy theories overstate the power of such organizations; conspiracies (lower-case &#x27;c&#x27;) exist all over the place (e.g. Davos assholes) but none have the power to run the world unilaterally. It&#x27;s too chaotic and large. Societies and nations have set themselves back centuries when their elites conspired toward mediocrity, but I don&#x27;t think the world elite is capable of doing so-- especially not now.<p>If the global business elite figures out a way to conspire toward mediocrity, the people like us are fucked, because excellence will cease to matter and being good at what one does will just get one the reputation of a troublemaker. However, the likelihood that anyone could pull this together in a world with unprecedented distribution of technical literacy is incredibly low.<p>As long as there are people looking to do things in this world, and the world continues to advance technologically, there will be a high level of demand for people who are technically competent. We might be applying our skills differently and changing industries, but there will be work for us, and society would have to reach an advanced (that is, certainly plausible but unlikely) state of degradation for us not to do that work on at least half-decent (e.g. middle-class) terms.
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