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A simple no-brainer approach to patent trolls

90 pointsby jaf12dukeover 11 years ago

24 comments

pmichaudover 11 years ago
The idea is maybe clever, but it has at least 2 major downfalls.<p>1.<p>The system is gamable by the trolls. Hurricanes don&#x27;t care if you&#x27;re insured, but trolls have an interest in taking troll insurance down. The way insurance works means that if you have a statistically unlikely run of bad luck, you could topple the whole insurance enterprise and leave those who thought they were covered out in the cold.<p>If I were a troll, I&#x27;d get together with other trolls and coordinate enough legal pressure that it was impossible to go to court on all the pending cases at once.<p>2.<p>Having insurance like this legitimizes the whole trolling issue, instead of fixing the systemic issues that cause it in the first place. You might think that doesn&#x27;t matter since we can&#x27;t really fix the trolling issue, but we can (maybe) create insurance to route around the problem. But here&#x27;s why it actually does matter: if the troll insurance works and isn&#x27;t killed by my point #1, then we&#x27;ve actually created a lobbying group with a vested interest in keeping trolling alive. In other words, the organization we created to protect us, if it actually works, will have strong incentive to work against our long term best interests by allying themselves with the trolls they are supposed to be protecting us against.<p>We&#x27;d essentially be creating a protection racket to extort &#x2F;ourselves&#x2F;.<p>Can&#x27;t see this working.
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nyan_sandwichover 11 years ago
My understanding is that patent trolls persist with bogus patents because it&#x27;s not in any one firms interest to challenge them. When it&#x27;s a central insurance company taking the risk, they have much more incentive to do damage to the trolls. This is a good feature of this scheme.<p>The protection racket shape of this whole thing is a bit worrying though.
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_greim_over 11 years ago
What if the insurance only covered court costs. If you lose, you have to pay the patent troll. It sounds bad, but trolls would then face a furious fight every time.
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jaxomlotusover 11 years ago
This idea already exists. RPX Corp. Costs a fortune though! Can be 6 figures a month...
drealizeover 11 years ago
RPX Corporation (RPXC-NASDAQ).
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phononover 11 years ago
I&#x27;ve also seen this <a href="http://www.altageneral.com/patent-insurance.php" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.altageneral.com&#x2F;patent-insurance.php</a><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHDPpjca19s&amp;feature=player_detailpage#t=182" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=tHDPpjca19s&amp;feature=player_de...</a>
daughartover 11 years ago
Patent Litigation Insurance™, a new product from Intellectual Ventures®.
memracomover 11 years ago
You can&#x27;t take Lloyds of London down so easily. That&#x27;s where you should start shopping for a policy, because the dealers at Lloyds are ultimately the ones who set the prices for any insurance anywhere in the world.
YokoZarover 11 years ago
How about insurance that contractually requires me to never settle and pays for me to fight until the patent is declared invalid? That way I look like the worst possible troll target.
tluyben2over 11 years ago
I for one would say the no brainer solution would be to abolish patents. I know blah blah medical research, years investment blah blah, but after the investment is made back, it is abused again. And shit like Monsanto. Abolishment would be best imho. But as that&#x27;s not in the cards, the next simple thing would be; if you (the company the patent belongs to, bought or created; not a partial parent owner, not some entity you have shares in; no, the physical company) are not actively creating, selling and marketing a product(s) the patent(s) are about, you cannot attack companies who are. If the &#x27;enemy&#x27; openly started selling&#x2F;marketing&#x2F;producing with the product before you did, you are just out of luck; even if you create it after that you cannot sue. This is easy to check and follow up; there will be thousands&#x2F;millions traces of actual sold and delivered product to end clients on tax papers, logistics papers, manufacturing papers etc which proves who was first.<p>So if you had the patent, which was supposed to be <i>original</i> in the first place, then, because it was so &#x27;original&#x27; (saying &#x27;original&#x27; because at least in case of software it just never is and many(most) hardware cases aren&#x27;t either) you could&#x27;ve easily been the first to exploit it right? If not; sorry for you, your patent lands in &#x2F;dev&#x2F;null. Will never happen but seems to be a logical and solid way of doing this.<p>Oh yes, and make the patent related to the investment used to come to it; you have to provide paper trail what &#x27;enormous and painful investments in time and money&#x27; you did to get to that &#x27;one click payment idea&#x27;; you can only sue others until your company made that investment back times X (X=10 or whatever), not after that.
programminggeekover 11 years ago
Patents are a good idea for rewarding people with original ideas. If they were required to stay with the original owner and weren&#x27;t transferrable, this would be a different (and similarly problematic issue), but as patents have value and are transferrable, they will be bought and sold as investments by various people&#x2F;corporations&#x2F;whatever.<p>In theory patents are maybe a good idea because it provides exclusive rights to &quot;own&quot; an idea for enough time to extract value out of it by selling a product or service around it (if you so choose). You could argue that software patents lasting 20 years is &quot;too long&quot; for technology. You could also argue that patents aren&#x27;t worldwide enforceable so, you need to get one everywhere, or basically you can&#x27;t enforce it.<p>I don&#x27;t really know that you can &quot;fix&quot; patents without throwing them away and rethinking them, but on a system as large and impactful as patents, the repercussions might be a lot worse than the problems we have now.
alok-gover 11 years ago
I have been wondering about possibility of another approach, which is limited to B2Cs. Since I am not a lawyer, I do not know if this can actually work.<p>Instead of manufacturing or selling the product directly, you open-source the design while maintaining the copyrights (or even patents-coverage if needed) over it. You now do contract manufacturing of the design for the buyer and set up the legal agreements &#x2F; EULAs accordingly. While it is the buyer now who has the risk of being sued, the troll I assume is unlikely to go after every small individual customer.<p>You maintain the copyrights (or patents) on your design just to prevent your competitors from freely copying it, though you promise not to sue the buyer himself for this IP as usual in the agreements.<p>Does anyone around here think this is correct &#x2F; feasible? Any lawyers here?
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Nimiover 11 years ago
This is probably not a good idea, but what happens if the &quot;badge&quot; on the site is simply a link to a binding contract that forces the company to always fight patent lawsuits in court? No insurance or anything, a simple way of signalling that they will go to court no matter what.<p>(I believe there&#x27;s a legal construct where a company can sign a binding contract with itself, overseen by a notary or something like that)<p>Now we replaced the rational actor the trolls faced, with an irrational one - the company simply <i>can&#x27;t</i> settle, this is going to court no matter what. Trolls no longer have an incentive to sue such companies, though if they do, the company is in big trouble (though, possibly not forced to shut down).
danielharanover 11 years ago
How about a &quot;white-hat&quot; troll? Get a bunch of patents, and threaten small players: you either join us, paying for insurance and lobbying OR we try and sue you.
femtoover 11 years ago
An alternative would be for a bunch of like minded companies to band together and form an alliance. If one of them gets trolled, the others contribute to their defence. &quot;One for all, all for one.&quot; You&#x27;d want to trust your allies, or put some limits in place to keep flagrant patent breaches outside the agreement.<p>Don&#x27;t some insurance companies already do legal expenses insurance?
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microcolonelover 11 years ago
Something like malpractice insurance I guess. It&#x27;d create an interesting dynamic between trolls and troll insurance policy providers.<p>You&#x27;d have the insurance providers lobbying to reduce patent trolling, just as trolls will be lobbying to allow for more.<p>The thing about this, is that instead of just the latter, we&#x27;d have both sides. If anyone wants to make this happen I&#x27;m on board.
JoeAltmaierover 11 years ago
Yeah, the insurance business is so sensible and orderly, adding that to the mix would surely make everything ok.
crisnobleover 11 years ago
Is this not exactly what Intellectual Ventures offers?
marcus_holmesover 11 years ago
personally I think the only way of stopping the trolls is to insist that the only litigant who has standing to bring suit on a patent is someone who:<p>a. Has the relevant patent<p>b. Is producing a product based on that patent which would be harmed by the alleged infringement<p>This would continue to protect actual inventors who actually make something (and the drug companies for whom the patent system really does work) but stop the trolls.
TylerEover 11 years ago
As a rule, insurance doesn&#x27;t insure against Armageddon. This would be like trying to get Geico to cover a top fuel dragster.
aaronchriscohenover 11 years ago
This would be like selling car insurance to demolition derby drivers. It would never, ever be profitable.
osipovover 11 years ago
the guys at fightthetroll.com are also doing something along these lines
spiritplumberover 11 years ago
A simple no-brainer approach to patent trolls: bit.ly&#x2F;18Loez4
ExpiredLinkover 11 years ago
Great idea. Fight capitalist excess with capitalism.