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Is Google signing your chat messages?

90 pointsby xnyhpsover 11 years ago

8 comments

cascaover 11 years ago
Why does Google use the term &quot;Off the record&quot; when there is a product called Off the record[1] that has been used for end-to-end encryption of IM that pre-dates Google Talk?<p>Google does many good things, but it would be unreasonable for anyone to expect that they wouldn&#x27;t store all your chat messages. &quot;Chats that have been taken off the record aren&#x27;t stored in your Gmail chat history, or in the Gmail chat history of the person you&#x27;re chatting with. &quot;[2]<p>[1] <a href="https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;otr.cypherpunks.ca&#x2F;</a> [2] <a href="https://support.google.com/talk/answer/29291?hl=en" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;support.google.com&#x2F;talk&#x2F;answer&#x2F;29291?hl=en</a>
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infinity0over 11 years ago
I don&#x27;t think this is a problem. In the email vs OTR debate, signed emails are not forgeable because you are not supposed to give away your private signing key - to claim that someone forged a signed email, you must convince that your private signing key was compromised at that time.<p>However, in this case you don&#x27;t hold the private signing key, so Google can make whatever signatures it wants, even of things you didn&#x27;t say, and there is no <i>cryptography</i> that links it back to you - because as a Google chat user, you don&#x27;t have a private signing key.
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j_sover 11 years ago
Thanks for the heads up regarding the undocumented XMPP extension!<p>I&#x27;m sure Google chat already maintains plenty of additional signatures, checksums, etc. that stay entirely server-side; any of which would be more than sufficient to &#x27;<i>prove[...] cryptographically that your account sent that message</i>&#x27; should law enforcement need to &#x27;<i>verify the signature is correct</i>&#x27;.
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qwertaover 11 years ago
Perhaps they want prevent competitors to implement their protocol? XMPP is too much open to fit into walled garden.
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spindritfover 11 years ago
How does signing a message make it any less (or more) ephemeral? You either store the copy or you don&#x27;t (and Google does). I don&#x27;t see how a signature could influence that.
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taway2012over 11 years ago
I suspect this is a HMAC-SHA1 similar to what the blog author surmised. It&#x27;s possibly a response to the recent fiasco where they misrouted IMs.<p>I think they use this signature in their backend as a last defense when routing a message to a recipient. Being meant for the backend explains why messages with corrupt signatures are accepted (the backend notices that incoming signature is bad, so it doesn&#x27;t use the signature to check the message when routing).<p>2) I&#x27;m curious about what people who say &quot;crytpo in the browser&#x2F;JS is bad&quot; think about this. This seems to be a pretty good application of crypto to achieve a very narrow goal.
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shortstuffsushiover 11 years ago
Maybe I&#x27;m missing the point here, but why is giving each message a signature worse than just hanging onto the message itself? Unless I&#x27;m missing something, each of these messages is sent to Google&#x27;s servers, and presumably stored (forever).<p>In that sense, even without the signature, the record itself still exists. I&#x27;m thinking maybe they&#x27;re trying to say that in the case of an end-user having a signature, <i>they</i> could look the message up? In that case, if they have a copy of that message in their inbox anyway, again, what is the difference?<p>Not trying to discredit the article, I think I must be overlooking something.
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Spooky23over 11 years ago
The article is really interesting, but I start rolling my eyes when the author jumps to the implication that this is some sort of plot to make government intrusion easier. I doubt that -- the police and litigants already have a myriad of ways to obtain and get chat transcripts admitted in court.<p>Perhaps this is a way to ensure message integrity when people are traversing networks that inspect TLS sessions?<p>Many enterprise environments, for example, use proxy servers that terminate SSL sessions at the network boundary, inspect the content, and then re-encrypt using a self-signed key. Perhaps Google has observed some malicious or obnoxious use of that technology in public or institutional wifi environments. (ie. inserting ads, filtering &quot;naughty&quot; words, etc)<p>The article implies that this is some sort of plot to make government intrusion easier. I doubt that -- the police and litigants already have a myriad of ways to obtain and get chat transcripts admitted in court.
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