TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Penny Arcade’s Insultingly Horrible Job

423 pointsby ambirexover 11 years ago

55 comments

fragsworthover 11 years ago
There are so many fucking developers out there who are totally unaware of their own value, and will take a salary significantly less than they&#x27;re worth. This usually comes as a result of nervousness in interviews, lack of confidence, fear of going broke, and&#x2F;or some other feeling of desperation.<p>As an employer, you want to find these folks. There&#x27;s usually no downside to having these absurd job postings. Penny Arcade apparently went too far and is getting some bad publicity, but usually there are no repercussions. Can you really blame them for trying to do this - when it works?<p>As developers, you need to educate your fellow developers about how much they&#x27;re worth, strategize ways to extract maximum value from companies you work for, and instill a sense of confidence in one another. If you&#x27;ve ever gone to engineering school, I <i>know</i> you knew tons of folks who couldn&#x27;t believe what companies were willing to pay for them. Their misconceptions need to be abolished.<p>If you don&#x27;t help your fellow developers understand their positions, then they&#x27;ll end up taking jobs like this one at Penny Arcade for shit pay and it brings down the overall price of employees in general.<p>Company owners don&#x27;t want you to know this. They benefit from these awesome hires.
评论 #6805703 未加载
评论 #6805406 未加载
评论 #6805333 未加载
评论 #6805833 未加载
评论 #6805418 未加载
评论 #6805420 未加载
VexXtremeover 11 years ago
A lot of companies out there are run by total morons or psychopaths, this doesn&#x27;t surprise me at all. This sounds like a combination of both.<p>I was recently introduced to a job by a recruiter and they wanted me to do a &quot;programming assignment&quot; which would take at least 20 hours, before I could even talk to them and see who they were. I was like, &quot;Cool story bro&quot;.<p>The reason why I bring that up is because I noticed the same pattern here; this job ad is screening for desperate people lacking a spine. I can&#x27;t imagine any decent developer with a good job applying for this. Only someone desperately looking for work and having relatively low skills would willingly take this job, assuming he&#x27;s not an idiot.
评论 #6805276 未加载
评论 #6806154 未加载
评论 #6805263 未加载
评论 #6805317 未加载
评论 #6805309 未加载
DigitalSeaover 11 years ago
I&#x27;m glad someone spoke up about it. I was rather insulted as a developer myself who feels undervalued that a business is doing nothing to help improve conditions for developers, this is why the industry is plagued with mental health issues; we aren&#x27;t sleeping, we are drinking a lot of coffee, we have no time to socialise or even spend time outside in the air&#x2F;sun. Workplace conditions as highlighted in the job ad for Penny Arcade are what is wrong with the industry as a whole.<p>Don&#x27;t get me started on the ridiculousness of expecting someone with a computer science degree for such a job. After spending tens of thousands of dollars on a CS degree, I&#x27;m sure said developer would love nothing more than to get a job that underpays, has no perks or offers real value. Surprised they didn&#x27;t list they wanted someone with knowledge of plumbing and performing complicated electrical work with experience working in a commercial kitchen and being able to cook 500 meals in the space of a couple of hours...<p>There aren&#x27;t many developers out there who would meet even half the requirements Penny Arcade listed in their job ad as a self-taught web developer with no qualifications, I would be on that list as well.
评论 #6805241 未加载
snogglethorpeover 11 years ago
The actual ad seems a <i>lot</i> less disturbing than Marco&#x27;s write-up of it... the main thing I notice is it seems to avoid the typical grinning-HR-guy-speak and sounds more like they&#x27;re being honest about things.<p>This clearly isn&#x27;t the job for everybody (obviously not Marco), but there are plenty of people out there who are (as the ad puts it) &quot;not terribly money-motivated&quot; and would be willing to work hard to be in a cool environment with cool people. [Some of the best jobs I&#x27;ve had have been for absurdly low salaries, but I don&#x27;t regret them for a nanosecond...]<p>Given who wrote the ad, I also wouldn&#x27;t be surprised if they&#x27;re exaggerating a wee bit and making it sound rather scarier than it really is. Having a small outfit with reasonable people in charge (and whatever faults they have, I don&#x27;t think PA are really psychopathic-startup-CEOs in disguise) is one of the best insurances there is against a truly unreasonable work environment. Sugar-coated job ads are an insurance against nothing....<p>If anything, I&#x27;m more disturbed by Marco&#x27;s rush to judgement...
评论 #6806119 未加载
评论 #6805318 未加载
评论 #6805881 未加载
评论 #6807177 未加载
评论 #6807539 未加载
ssclafaniover 11 years ago
Robert Khoo, the business manger of Penny Arcade and the one who wrote this job ad subscribes to the &quot;work is family&quot; level of cultural fit. He looks at hiring as adding a new member to the family rather than just filling a position. This is why his job ads and hiring methods are so harsh. The three seasons of Penny Arcade&#x27;s video show paint a good picture of what it&#x27;s like to get hired and work at Penny Arcade: <a href="http://penny-arcade.com/patv/show/pa-the-series" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;penny-arcade.com&#x2F;patv&#x2F;show&#x2F;pa-the-series</a>.
评论 #6805295 未加载
评论 #6805324 未加载
评论 #6805520 未加载
评论 #6805362 未加载
评论 #6805292 未加载
评论 #6805768 未加载
评论 #6805786 未加载
pesentiover 11 years ago
&gt; <i>Full Medical, Vision and Dental, 401k (SEP) retirement contributions (2% of annual income per year), Holiday pay, Periodic bonuses, Flexible vacation time, We&#x27;re willing to relocate you if need be</i><p>An <i>insultingly horrible job</i> and <i>this is everything wrong with tech-startup culture</i>, really Marco? Maybe your post is what&#x27;s insulting to 99% of the world work population (who have much worst jobs) and what&#x27;s wrong in the tech culture today (disclaimer: I was Marco&#x27;s first employer).
评论 #6805842 未加载
评论 #6805610 未加载
评论 #6805453 未加载
评论 #6805711 未加载
评论 #6805639 未加载
评论 #6806195 未加载
minimaxirover 11 years ago
In a bit of life-imitating-art, Penny Arcade also co-writes a side webcomic about poor conditions in the gaming QA industry: <a href="http://trenchescomic.com/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;trenchescomic.com&#x2F;</a><p>The Tales from the Trenches section is less hilarious in hindsight.
评论 #6806216 未加载
santoshalperover 11 years ago
Man, the people complaining about this shit are hilarious. I bet half of you people are &quot;libertarians&quot;. Nobody has to take this job, and if it means they don&#x27;t get a good employee, then so be it, that&#x27;s their business decision. I get worrying about McDonald&#x27;s employees, many of those folks are living in poverty and have few other options. Anybody who can do this job has a lot of options and even if underpaid will be far from poverty.<p>When I was 22, I was a small businesses best programmer, IT guy, server admin, CAD draftsman, document writer, butcher, baker, candlestick maker, etc. These kinds of jobs are <i>extremely</i> common in small businesses and honestly it was an amazing and formative experience. You people are being babies.
lingbenover 11 years ago
&quot;Annual Salary: Negotiable, but you should know up front we’re not a terribly money-motivated group.&quot;<p>This is ridiculous to anyone who knows Robert Khoo. He is nothing but money oriented and motivated. In fact he was brought in to PA for exactly this reason and he is the reason why they grew to what they are now.
评论 #6806558 未加载
fotoblurover 11 years ago
At dinner one night I overheard a senior guy tell a junior guy that what he couldn&#x27;t pay him in salary, he&#x27;d pay him in experience. The junior guy was full of excitement. The senior guy was also full of excitement but did his best to conceal it because he had just won a favorable victory in convincing another to do his deeds without an equitable compensation.
评论 #6805604 未加载
vinceguidryover 11 years ago
This is absolutely the norm for the creative industry. They pour themselves into their work, and they expect you to too.<p>The reason is that creative work is incredibly hard in a way that&#x27;s not possible to make up for with experience or training. It&#x27;s hard on day one, year one, and hard on day one year twenty.<p>The thing that gets you through it all is the very nature of the work. It&#x27;s like you&#x27;re giving birth to a baby and seeing it grow and thrive, only this baby can make you shitloads of money. It&#x27;s incredibly rewarding.<p>Penny Arcade wants the type of employee that can not only handle this, but who can thrive off of it the same way they do. That&#x27;s why they&#x27;re so in-your-face about how shitty the job is.<p>The entertainment industry is driven by big names. It&#x27;s relentlessly competitive, the successful enjoy a never-ending crush of people who want to be a part of something they&#x27;ve been seeing on TV or the Internet and at cons for years. The unsuccessful have to fight for every minor victory. It&#x27;s winner takes all, there&#x27;s only so much public mindshare to go around.<p>If you want to know what the poor hapless sap who does get hired on to be their resident nerd is getting out of the arrangement, it&#x27;s being part of this crush of attention. It&#x27;s seriously life-changing. The social perks defy enumeration. After a few years of shoveling Penny Arcade&#x27;s shit, they will be able to write their own salary at any number of massive media franchises who need every vetted hand they can get and are willing to pay top dollar. That&#x27;s what&#x27;s unsaid in that job ad, but if you&#x27;ve spent any time around that industry, you&#x27;d be salivating at the mouth at the opportunity.
评论 #6807052 未加载
jpatokalover 11 years ago
Props to PA for the honesty though. There&#x27;s <i>plenty</i> of jobs like this out in small businesses that only need&#x2F;can afford one &quot;IT guy&quot; to run everything, and most will have pretty much this exact set of requirements (can&#x27;t pay crazy dot-com salaries, has to be able to do a bit of everything, be on-call 24&#x2F;7 if the shit really hits the fan), but how many of them would actually spell it out?
评论 #6806111 未加载
评论 #6805370 未加载
评论 #6805550 未加载
评论 #6806006 未加载
MartinCronover 11 years ago
It doesn&#x27;t seem that out-of-the-ordinary in how horrible it is, but there is something really unsettling in the &quot;yeah, this is going to be terrible&quot; attitude of the job poster. There&#x27;s an arrogance there that I don&#x27;t think is earned by being part of an only sometimes funny publication.
评论 #6805538 未加载
Segmentationover 11 years ago
I&#x27;m reminded of the movie MoneyBall. Jonah Hill and Brad Pitt are employed with what outsiders would consider horrible jobs, but each stick with it because they enjoy it.<p>As an outsider you may think Penny Arcade&#x27;s offer is bad, but someone, somewhere would love nothing more to work with the people behind that legendary comic and expo, no matter how rough it is.<p>Edit - I would also like to make an analogy with MMO guilds, particularly World of Warcraft. There are players who spend 4+ hours a night with their guild hardcore raiding (especially after the release of a content patch). These hardcore guilds have very strict enlistments. Unless you&#x27;re as hardcore as them you&#x27;re not in. An outsider would think they&#x27;re insane, but there is no shortage of people applying to these guilds because they enjoy the experience of hardcore raiding. Some of these guilds have a very family-like bond toward each other, so you have to consider community&#x2F;culture fit.
评论 #6805525 未加载
评论 #6806132 未加载
评论 #6805343 未加载
评论 #6805915 未加载
评论 #6806005 未加载
DanI-Sover 11 years ago
&gt; This is everything wrong with tech-startup culture<p>In my experience, this isn&#x27;t really tech-startup culture, it&#x27;s entertainment industry culture. If you know anyone who has ever worked in film, music or videogames, it&#x27;s a fairly typical thing.
评论 #6805953 未加载
gordacoover 11 years ago
The job posting looks an awful lot like the usual videogame programmer job: it&#x27;s bound to attract some people just because of the nature of the job, so they don&#x27;t bother adding good money or perks. In this case it&#x27;s a little more blatant and there seems to be some boasting from the employer, but in the end it&#x27;s the same.<p>And the saddest of all this is that the job will get covered. In fact, I&#x27;m sure that there will be a lot of applicants. Just like for videogame programming.<p>Yes, we need to fight this. It&#x27;s good that there are people complaining publicly. By the way, I believe that a few details from the job posting would be illegal in my country, although probably not in the US.
wilgover 11 years ago
&quot;a person that can do four jobs&quot;<p>&quot;terrible at work-life balance&quot;<p>&quot;on call 24&#x2F;7&quot;<p>&quot;potentially offensive environment&quot;<p>&quot;being pushed to your limit is part of the job&quot;<p>&quot;sometimes tedious work&quot;<p>That, and Penny Arcade&#x27;s history of avoidable and frustrating controversies (<a href="http://business.financialpost.com/2013/06/21/download-code-penny-arcade-needs-to-fix-its-krahulik-problem/?__lsa=03bc-7082" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;business.financialpost.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;06&#x2F;21&#x2F;download-code-p...</a>), and their terrible responses to them?<p>Where do I sign up?
评论 #6805360 未加载
mbestoover 11 years ago
&gt; <i>Their unreasonable, immature expectations are a damaging message to send to their huge audience of young software developers.</i><p>Two things:<p>1. The intent of their hiring specification isn&#x27;t to send a message to their audience, it&#x27;s to hire someone to service their audience. I&#x27;m not sure why the two are assumed to be mutually exclusive? Don&#x27;t want to apply? Then don&#x27;t apply - let market forces weed them out.<p>2. In all of my years of applying for jobs and hiring people, not once has a candidate ever met exactly the profile nor eventually fulfilled every responsibility in a hiring specification. This sounds a bit overdramatic and too pedantic. Let it go.
评论 #6805334 未加载
shunterover 11 years ago
This passive aggressive tone permeates a lot of PA&#x27;s comics, postings, and general presence. So I&#x27;m not surprised to see it. They&#x27;ve built a community around the over all nerd thug mentality that exists within their forums.<p>I stopped reading PA after the controversy about the rape wolf and their dismissive reaction to it.<p>I wouldn&#x27;t want to work there. Not because of the hard work aspect, but because I can imagine that the overall attitude that informs their public work would inform their internal political structure as well.<p>Lets face it, you&#x27;re not curing cancer here. You&#x27;re making events and media that appeal to a certain sub-culture. This shouldn&#x27;t require repressed nerd rage to get right.
Jemaclusover 11 years ago
I&#x27;m not defending PA&#x27;s job listing, because I do agree that it&#x27;s absurd, but it&#x27;s also important to remember that job listings tend to be for &quot;ideal&quot; candidates. Actual hired candidates are often far less qualified than the ideal candidate listed in the job requirement.<p>For instance, ideally, I&#x27;d love to hire a dev that has 5+ years of professional PHP experience building web apps and has experience with machine learning systems specifically relating to fraud. But in all likelihood I&#x27;ll be lucky to hire someone with 3+ years of professional PHP experience with zero experience doing machine learning. The hired candidate will likely be simply <i>interested</i> in machine learning. The hired candidate will likely have <i>no</i> experience with fraud-related topics.<p>I can train you. I can teach you those things. But ideally, I wouldn&#x27;t have to.<p>Likewise with PA&#x27;s job listing, ideally, they want someone who can do all of those things. Practically, they&#x27;ll hire someone who can do a very small subset of those things.<p>That said, it&#x27;s a bit unrealistic to expect one person to do the job of four people (which is what this listing wants), especially for low salary, so... yeah, it&#x27;s a bit ridiculous.
评论 #6805294 未加载
Untit1edover 11 years ago
Oh cmon. There are thousands of tech jobs that don&#x27;t pay that well and require all those skills. The difference is that when those companies go to find someone, they lie in the ad. How is being honest insulting?<p>I&#x27;ll bet there&#x27;s plenty of young developers out there who don&#x27;t mind working long hours and would love to spend their time flying around with the Penny-Arcade crew keeping everything running - admittedly they won&#x27;t be hiring the best applicants in the industry with the rates and conditions that they&#x27;re offering, but I doubt they&#x27;ll have much trouble finding someone who fits the bill.
deletesover 11 years ago
For anyone not familiar with Penny Arcade( PA ), the absurd condition are there to reduce the number of candidates applying. Pa gets thousands of applications every time they have a job opening. Everyone dismissing the possible job at PA for those conditions is automatically removed from the process and that is exactly what R.Khoo wants. In case you are wondering why would you still want to work there, then you are not the Candidate, and &gt;shock&lt;, they don&#x27;t want you there. Yes it is that simple.<p>Anyone who wants to work at PA, knows why very well.( hint: its not the money )
评论 #6806041 未加载
评论 #6805450 未加载
javajoshover 11 years ago
It&#x27;s a reasonable strategy, because it&#x27;s the same one other prestige companies use, particularly in gaming. Blizzard, for one, doesn&#x27;t pay market rates for developers. It&#x27;s a 15% difference or so, and you accept it because...well, it&#x27;s Blizzard, and you really want to work there. The same may hold for a few other prestigious companies, like Valve, Bioware, etc.<p>Does it hold for Penny Arcade? Unknown.<p>Does it have any implication at all for the general profession? No way. It&#x27;s funny to see how upset people are getting about a job ad. They are &quot;insulted&quot;. But really what they are experiencing is, at worst, Penny Arcade misattributing themselves so much &quot;juice&quot; that they&#x27;d be willing to let someone grind themselves up in a job.<p>(That is, perhaps, the only narrow way in which this job posting is immoral, is if it describes working conditions so horrific that no-one could escape without deep emotional scarring. And no, I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s quite that bad.)
评论 #6805766 未加载
评论 #6806382 未加载
mikeashover 11 years ago
This blog post basically boils down to: you will work far more than a regular full time job, and you will be paid poorly.<p>This is not, as far as I can tell, actually supported by the job posting itself.<p>I really can&#x27;t understand why this is getting upvoted so much. I&#x27;d love to see an intelligent discussion of unrealistic demands in tech jobs, but this isn&#x27;t it.
评论 #6805635 未加载
dansoover 11 years ago
Wow, I&#x27;m really divorced from the real world. The Penny Arcade ad, other than the edgy snark, reads like virtually every developer position I&#x27;ve ever read in the media&#x2F;news business.<p>(yes, this is an indictment of the already troubled news industry)
doktrinover 11 years ago
While I don&#x27;t usually find myself in staunch agreement with some of what Marco has to say (particularly with regards to Apple), I fully endorse this post.<p>I found myself seething while reading the original Penny Arcade job listing. The cognitive dissonance required to <i>write</i> it is beyond my comprehension. In particular, the nonsense about somehow justifying a below-market salary in order to &quot;<i>make the office nicer</i>&quot;.<p>Needless to say, my appreciation for Penny Arcade as a whole plummeted drastically today.
jsumrallover 11 years ago
One of the few things to make me audibly laugh today. They expect you to know everything(to be THE MOST CRUCIAL person in the company), but I let it go thinking there was some perk I was going to read next which justified it.<p>Perks include: on call 24&#x2F;7 low pay work is your life<p>But I guess we&#x27;re not the people they&#x27;re looking for, and when they do find someone they give them a high-five, a latte, and scratch their hipster beards and laugh at how materialistic we are needing money and free time.
FreeKillover 11 years ago
Personally, that job is not for me, but I don&#x27;t see the harm in &quot;shooting for the moon&quot; in a job description if they think they can get a candidate that matches the criteria. Why wouldn&#x27;t you try to get someone overqualified and then underpay them if you think you can? It&#x27;s not PA&#x27;s fault people will apply for the position or that they can sell themselves as a desirable destination for more reasons than balance and compensation.
评论 #6805270 未加载
RandallBrownover 11 years ago
Why would this salary be <i>very</i> low?<p>Sure, they say that money isn&#x27;t important to them, but there&#x27;s no reason to assume it wouldn&#x27;t be slightly competitive.<p>Penny Arcade is in Seattle. If they want a chance of hiring anyone they would at least need to be in the ballpark of other job offers out there. Microsoft and Amazon pay pretty well, so I don&#x27;t think this number will be as insulting as people are assuming it will be.
评论 #6805268 未加载
nwhover 11 years ago
Archive of the advertisement for prosperity&#x2F;history — <a href="http://archive.is/pqsJT" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;pqsJT</a>
评论 #6805204 未加载
评论 #6805186 未加载
评论 #6805236 未加载
cryginover 11 years ago
This is the ... third (maybe fourth?) article on this topic today to get up into the top few posts on HN before disappearing into oblivion. Some people really don&#x27;t want to have a conversation about how young tech folks are being exploited.
bigdover 11 years ago
I&#x27;m doing almost the same job, in Northwestern University for 37k year.<p>few highlights: 1) - Saturday night deadlines for Sunday evening. 2) - Management decides Monday 1:30am that the new release has to be Monday 9:00 am. 3) - &gt;70h week, and always on call 4) - shitty overstressed environment 5) - might loose my job if the boss get fired, which implies loosing the status, therefore deportation. 6) - planned vacations canceled few days before, because &quot;there&#x27;s this really important last minute thing&quot;.<p>you people have no idea of what the life of non us citizens can be. I&#x27;ll probably improve my status working for PA, but they&#x27;ll never consider going trough the immigration madness.
mildtrepidationover 11 years ago
The ad does look like either an awful but honest job offer or a fairly clever collection of Bad IT Hiring Behavior jokes. No one here seems to think the latter, and like a lot of others I worked plenty of these before understanding how undervalued the position was... do we have it from the horse&#x27;s mouth that this is real?<p>Regardless, some of the comments here are suggesting that taking advantage of people who are hard up for work, don&#x27;t understand their own value, or don&#x27;t have the resume to get anything else is OK as long as you&#x27;re up front about it. Where did this ridiculous notion come from?<p>&quot;I sold you a car, and it&#x27;s a lemon, but I didn&#x27;t tell you it had problems despite knowing.&quot; &quot;I&#x27;m trying to sell this car; I know it&#x27;s a lemon.&quot;<p>Being honest about being a piece of shit makes you... wait for it... a piece of shit. It does, however, put some of the responsibility on the applicants in this case: If you know up front you&#x27;re applying for a position like this, and you do anyway, you&#x27;ve made your own bed. I&#x27;m not the kind of person to say that at that point you have no right to complain, but you certainly went in with an understanding of what would happen, so while it doesn&#x27;t absolve the employer of responsibility for poor treatment, it does absolve them of any hint of having misled applicants.
评论 #6808221 未加载
评论 #6808072 未加载
jakemcgrawover 11 years ago
For anyone that hasn&#x27;t experienced it first hand: &quot;programmer&quot; + &quot;IT&#x2F;computer guy&quot; is a recipe for professional failure. The demands are so different and balancing them is impossible. You can be an IT person or software developer but never both at the same time. It is also a sign that whomever job description doesn&#x27;t understand the difference.
goshxover 11 years ago
I wish the person that left the job would show up here and tell us how it is like to work there and take care of all those items.
InclinedPlaneover 11 years ago
I&#x27;ve debated about posting on this but I figure context is probably more helpful than not.<p>The person leaving this job is a close friend of mine. I agree that this is a very unusual job posting but I think it&#x27;s a mistake to view it through the lens of typical startup or silicon-valley hiring. There are plenty of jobs in the industry which, on paper, look similar to this one. Low pay, lots of responsibilities, on call duties, poor work&#x2F;life balance, etc. But PA isn&#x27;t a normal company so a lot of the assumptions going into some of the conclusions people are drawing are erroneous.<p>PA is a family, which is something that a lot of startups pretend to but which is actually true in this case. The people there don&#x27;t just eat lunch together they spend a lot of time in and out of the office with each other, and they tend to have pretty strong bonds of friendship with each other. The majority of people working at PA didn&#x27;t interview to work there. PA tends to hire by osmosis when it can, because &quot;cultural fit&quot; is by far the most important factor. It&#x27;s a very challenging prospect to try to hire someone into a very close nit group of friends, even more so when the job you&#x27;re trying to hire for has fairly high skill requirements.<p>Personally I think that this job requires a fairly unusual candidate, but I think there&#x27;s a good chance such a candidate exists. And I don&#x27;t mean &quot;unusual&quot; in terms of being a &quot;rockstar&quot; or someone filled with self-hatred or low self-esteem.<p>So, let me correct (or confirm) some perceptions. This isn&#x27;t a &quot;death march&quot; job like you&#x27;d expect in game dev or many startups. Yeah you may have to work late sometimes, and there may be weeks when you&#x27;re chugging red bull, but a lot of that is up to you and how you do development, set expectations, and so on. This isn&#x27;t healthcare.gov, it&#x27;s mostly a bunch of content-heavy sites. You can certainly get into a crunch if you don&#x27;t manage your time or your projects well but that&#x27;s within your control, and you can certainly push back as much as is necessary. Unlike most startups you&#x27;re not going to be expected to be in crunch mode all the time and you&#x27;re not going to be expected to put in a set number of hours per week. If you do good work and prioritize well you&#x27;ll be fine.<p>In terms of being on call, again it&#x27;s not as though this is reddit or healthcare.gov or amazon.com, it&#x27;s a handful of CMS deployments and a few other things. Things can, and will, go down, and the fact that you&#x27;re pretty much the only person available to fix a lot of this stuff is definitely going to suck. But the sorts of problems you&#x27;re going to run into aren&#x27;t the same sorts of things you&#x27;ll see at a typical startup. Maybe the load balancer for some site isn&#x27;t working right or something, so you&#x27;ll go file a support ticket w&#x2F; the VPS provider or fix it yourself as warranted. This isn&#x27;t a job where you&#x27;ll expect to have to get out of bed at 3am at least once a week to have to fix some bullshit code that someone else wrote. You have the opportunity to make the system work as smoothly as possible, and if you find yourself getting woken up by monitoring alerts too often that&#x27;s probably due more to the choices you&#x27;ve made than anything else.<p>The reason why the job listing asks for people with a &quot;crazy person level of attention to detail&quot; is because you will be the entirety of the dev team (but there are designers, so you&#x27;re not the whole universe). There&#x27;s no QA team and not really any project management other than what you do. And accountability primarily comes from intrinsic motivation, not from someone looking over your shoulder.<p>As far as IT support and DBA, I don&#x27;t think that&#x27;s a very difficult requirement for a lot of devs to satisfy. It&#x27;s not as though you have to do tech support for an office of mundanes, pretty much everyone at PA is tech savvy, the only thing you&#x27;re there to do is be a resource to maybe solve some of the problems they can&#x27;t, and to babysit the office infrastructure as necessary. If you feel comfortable setting up a managed switch (with the help of documentation) and building your own PC from parts you&#x27;ll probably be fine.<p>The really bad news is that you&#x27;re going to be taking a pay cut most likely. There just isn&#x27;t the same opportunity to make as much money as you could in other parts of the industry. If you think you can negotiate a more competitive salary, then you can certainly try, I wouldn&#x27;t rule it out. You&#x27;ll still make okay money, if money isn&#x27;t a big factor for you then it&#x27;ll probably be fine, it should be enough to live wherever you want and have plenty of disposable income. But compared to what you could make in a profitable startup or at one of the big companies it&#x27;s going to be a lot less.<p>The other bad news is that there&#x27;s not much opportunity for growth or change. A lot of that is in your own hands but there are only so many things the company needs. If you have an ambition to learn haskell this isn&#x27;t a good position for you. Similarly, there&#x27;s no other dev. position to move into, you can&#x27;t switch to another team working on different projects with different technology, you won&#x27;t have the opportunity to become a lead or a manager, etc. The job can be what you make of it, but there&#x27;s only so far it can realistically stretch, so you should consider that in terms of your long-term career goals. Of course, if you want to spend your free time working on some open source project, there&#x27;s nothing stopping you.<p>Overall I&#x27;d reiterate that cultural fit is by far the most important part of this job. If you&#x27;re excited about the possibility of working at PA then that&#x27;s square one, if not then you should just ignore this job posting entirely. Beyond that, if you&#x27;re competent and proficient at web dev and comfortable with getting your hands dirty with networking or hardware on rare occasions, and if you&#x27;re the sort of person who wants to settle into a role where most of the time you&#x27;ll be setting up content-heavy sites then this might be a good opportunity for you. It&#x27;s certainly not a job for everyone, or even the vast majority of devs.
评论 #6806843 未加载
评论 #6806805 未加载
JacobJansover 11 years ago
There are a lot of people here who are creating jobs.<p>I just have one request for you:<p>Create dream jobs.<p>Make it your mission to think of &#x27;dream jobs&#x27;, and then find a way to make them happen.<p>Don&#x27;t start by thinking about what tasks need to be done. Don&#x27;t start by thinking about how to get the most bang for your buck.<p>Start by thinking, &quot;what would be a reallly-damn-cool job to have?&quot; Then find a way to make it happen. Once you&#x27;ve thought up the dream job, go back and find a way to pay for it. Figure out the path you&#x27;ll need to take in order to make it happen.<p>Create dream jobs.<p>Please :)<p>If you succeed, I promise that it will be one of the most gratifying things you ever do.
ekarulfover 11 years ago
For eight years of my life, I was this &quot;Do-Everything Rockstar.&quot; I was also a student for the majority of that time. I certainly wasn&#x27;t a &quot;programming deity&quot; -- I was just a kid that was presented with the opportunity to learn some incredible lessons about scaling, appsec, capacity planning, etc. I also learned soft skills like how to negotiate, travel, and delegate.<p>The skill set absolutely exists and, for the right person, it&#x27;s a great job.
评论 #6805693 未加载
SheepSlapperover 11 years ago
Haven&#x27;t we beat this subject to death already?<p><a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6803059" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=6803059</a>
评论 #6809014 未加载
评论 #6805507 未加载
lnanek2over 11 years ago
Pretty common at startups where your actual job is often &quot;everyone does everything&quot;. It&#x27;s quite common to only have a business person and a set of one or more developers, for example. Then the developers start having to do IT and sys admin that can&#x27;t be outsourced or clouded out like in the linked job ad. I think the ad is honest and it gives the impression that the PA biz guy seems like a straight shooter, personally. :)
rrichover 11 years ago
Totally understand the work life balance issue, particularly coupled with basically what&#x27;s being pointed out as a sub par salary. But I really don&#x27;t understand how that skill set is a premium. If you are a web developer I would expect all those skills to be part of your repertoire. I&#x27;ve seen worse, desired skill sets encompassing the impossible. The 20 years experience programming Java want ads, circa 2000.
评论 #6805400 未加载
wismerover 11 years ago
There&#x27;s really only one person behind this job listing and that&#x27;s Robert Khoo. He&#x27;s got great business acumen, but not a great nose in determining the job expectations for a position like this. That being said, it seems like poor form to insult the business manager of a small company without offering advice first and it is unseemly to use such excoriating language. Does this blogger fellow know Khoo?
10098over 11 years ago
&gt; if you [...] don’t mind having a really bad sense of work-life balance, this is the job for you.<p>wtf, they&#x27;re not even trying
singingfishover 11 years ago
I found a somewhat interesting job on odesk the other day (via a contact, I don&#x27;t keep an eye on odesk). Once I informed the person offering the job what we could do for them and how much it cost, they pulled the advert and recast their plans.<p>tl;dr; It&#x27;s not always as grim as it looks. but in this case it might be.
jurassicover 11 years ago
Since we&#x27;re talking about insane job ads, I saw this one recently: <a href="http://www.splore.com/content/jobs" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.splore.com&#x2F;content&#x2F;jobs</a><p>&quot;You should be ready to make this startup the primary focus of your life&quot;
mverwijsover 11 years ago
If I were willing to make those hours for that pay, I&#x27;d start my own company.
drakaalover 11 years ago
If you are a manager (I am a CTO), Raise your hand. Put your hand down if you have never heard of Penny-Arcade.<p>Put your hand down if your company gets more traffic than PAX does at its peak.<p>Put your hand down if your work place is more fun than the Penny Arcade office.<p>Put your hand down if your after work parties rival Penny-Arcades.<p>Anyone with their hand still up is someone who would hire you after this gig. PHP devs are typically commodity programmers. As managers we will typically give you a basic programming test and fire you when you burn out. (not at my company I am saying what is typical in the space)<p>This is a gig that would make you no longer a commodity programmer. That is worth something. A dev who has been working in a Middle level position would do well to take this gig for 18 months, then start shopping for a better paying gig.
AliAdamsover 11 years ago
PA has been digging its own grave for a while now. Such a crime as I love a lot of the content. Who thinks that charging for access to the html5 player is a clever model?
Kiroover 11 years ago
It sounds fun and the kind of postings I&#x27;m looking for. If I&#x27;m going to waste half of my life in a company I want to be in one where everyone is dedicated.
thinkpad20over 11 years ago
I didn&#x27;t know whether to laugh or cry reading that.
评论 #6805313 未加载
droopyEyelidsover 11 years ago
I&#x27;m not sure how to understand this in the context of respecting human life. How does the team that created this posting think of people?
GhotiFishover 11 years ago
you know. When I read the story, I thought it was a little too harsh. Then I read Penny Arcades job post.<p>(the title blog post&#x27;s title is a link to the job posting)<p><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/9887522?trk=job_nov" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.linkedin.com&#x2F;jobs2&#x2F;view&#x2F;9887522?trk=job_nov</a><p>That&#x27;s pretty horrible.
drunkenmastaover 11 years ago
I guess the sad part is that they will still have plenty of people falling over themselves to get the job.
rfnslyrover 11 years ago
I feel like this isn&#x27;t terribly demanding position. How hard can it possibly be? They&#x27;re websites aren&#x27;t very complex and the system is already in place. Sounds like a full-stack-engineer-gone-maintenance position.<p>Honestly, sounds like a fun ride for about a year, I wouldn&#x27;t mind, even if the pay is a bit low. If it&#x27;s really that bad of a position, then quit. We&#x27;re pretty much immortal when it comes to finding jobs anyways so it&#x27;s not like you&#x27;re putting your life on the line, especially if you&#x27;re a single, young bachelor.
评论 #6805457 未加载
vernieover 11 years ago
Sucks that you&#x27;re being forced to apply, huh?
评论 #6805238 未加载