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Absurdly High Valuations

135 pointsby jaf12dukeover 11 years ago

21 comments

ChuckMcMover 11 years ago
It is tempting to read this article as &quot;wah, wah, wah! Nobody values us over a billion dollars!&quot; but it is actually much more insightful. This statement that Jason makes is the key I think ...<p><i>&quot; They can afford to get into these bidding wars because they have the confidence that they are likely to at least get their money back, and yet they still get upside exposure if things go extremely well.&quot;</i><p>There is a lot of &#x27;brand management&#x27; at a venture capital company. They want to be the &#x27;cool kids&#x27; to the people who &#x27;pick winners.&#x27; That keeps the money coming in and the partners paid. Because of that, being an investor in a company that makes a positive, splashy, exit (not necessarily really profitable) helps keep that brand alive.<p>Given that, when there are already acquisition offers being turned down, VCs no doubt see an opportunity to buff their brand by having a piece of the action. And a weird feedback loop is that founders are quite flattered to hear their company referred to with such high valuations, and it might make their personal fortunes seem large (since they generally still have a large chunk of stock) even though an exit that doesn&#x27;t clear the preference hurdle will typically pay them little.<p>So we get this little dance.<p>Such dreams don&#x27;t always work out of course. So it is much easier to stay focused on just building value for your customers and adding to their delight and satisfaction in using your products. That activity always pays dividends.
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gavanwooleryover 11 years ago
Actually, I&#x27;d take that one step further:<p>Share prices DO NOT denote actual value. Hence things like the P&#x2F;E (Price to Earnings) ratio. Share prices denote estimated worth, which is often never the case (some companies trade at 30x their actual earnings, and never live up to the promise of those expected earnings). The same concept applies to public&#x2F;private acquisitions.<p>What is actually going on with these valuations? Well, it is kind of a way of conning public markets into buying this stuff. Even in the case of &quot;private&quot; acquisitions, these acquisitions are largely or entirely funded with publicly-traded money used by the publicly-traded acquiring company.<p>This is not always devious but I suspect there are at least a few cases of corruption. Sometimes companies are innocently acquired with the true belief that they will add value. Often times, companies are acquired to simply be &quot;flipped&quot; - i.e. destroyed within 3 years after the shares vest. The valley floor is littered with the skeletons of acquired companies. :)<p>[Edit: on reading further down, the author hints at this a bit).
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alain94040over 11 years ago
The protection that preferences provide is so important and so often ignored by the media and general public.<p>Imagine if you could buy Twitter stock today at $50, with the guarantee that if the stock went below that, you&#x27;d get your $50 back. Would you buy? I would, for sure. I&#x27;d even be willing to buy at $100: it&#x27;s all upside and no downside. Does that mean that Twitter is worth twice its current valuation? Of course not.<p>How do you think DST got into all those hot deals?
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tvladeckover 11 years ago
This article does mention this, but I think the point gets hidden: you cannot compare series * funding rounds with stock market valuations because investors in series * get downside protection. This is the &quot;liquidity preference&quot;. If an investor puts in 100m at a 2b valuation, any exit above 100m will return the investment to the investors of that round [0]. So the payoff for these investments is actually quite nuanced with more than one &quot;critical point&quot;.<p>[0] I realize it&#x27;s more complicated than this, but the point remains.
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RyanZAGover 11 years ago
<i>&gt; When you look at the rumored Snapchat valuations of over 3 billion dollars, it’s difficult to understand how an investor can think that Snapchat is worth that much. Because the truth is, it’s not. </i><p>How much is your house worth? Might be it cost you $100K, but if someone is willing to give you $1M for it because they want to build a supermarket there, then your house is worth $1M.<p>So if Snapchat is being offered $3B from Facebook because they think it would give them at least that much value, then Snapchat is worth $3B.
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bri3dover 11 years ago
This highlights another point: as an employee holding common options, your interests are <i>not</i> aligned with the investors or founders.<p>Investors still win in the &quot;small win&quot; scenario outlined. Founders will generally still get <i>something</i> financially (depending on just how bad the deal was) and can almost universally turn the &quot;small win&quot; bad exit into &quot;advisory&quot; roles or more favorable terms next time they play the startup game. As an employee, you get nothing.
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mathattackover 11 years ago
I really like his point on market cap. When you have preferences if things go South, the valuation isn&#x27;t as simple as total shares multiplied by most recent equity valuation. Not all shares are equal.<p>The # of IPOs is also consistent with my intuition. It feels like 1998 excitement, as opposed to 1999 or 2000 mania.
bsirkiaover 11 years ago
Sorry can someone explain a bit more about the Small Win Scenario and how you still get all your money back? Say Snapchat IPO&#x27;s for $1B and you invested $100M at a $3B valuation, wouldn&#x27;t you only get $33M of your money back? Or is that the caveat in &quot;assuming I’m the most senior investor&quot;?. Everyone investing at these valuation can&#x27;t all be the most senior investor right?
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gojomoover 11 years ago
As a counterpoint: at the moment of financing, existing shareholders also think the latest round is a positive deal for themselves. That implies they value their remaining, post-dilution (and less-preferenced) shares even higher than the reported top-line &#x27;valuation&#x27;.<p>And indeed, a main reason for the liquidation preference is to provide the later investors a guarantee&#x2F;signal that the insiders&#x27; intent isn&#x27;t just to soon settle for less that the &#x27;valuation&#x27; – winning themselves a gain at the expense of the latest investor.<p>So, sure, when later money adds &quot;$100MM at a $3B valuation&quot;, those 3.3%-ownership investors might not truly value the entire company at exactly 30X their stake. But, the other 96.7% owners <i>do</i> value the company at <i>even more</i> than $3B, or they wouldn&#x27;t have granted the downside-protection and done the deal.<p>So reporting the top-line valuation, as a market-negotiated fair value, weighted by revealed preferences, still makes a lot of sense. Professionals and insiders found it a reasonable meeting-point... and the downside-protection (which implies the investors&#x27; number is really lower) is exactly offset by the upside-expectation (which implies the insiders&#x27; number is really higher).
adventuredover 11 years ago
&quot;When you look at the rumored Snapchat valuations of over 3 billion dollars, it’s difficult to understand how an investor can think that Snapchat is worth that much. Because the truth is, it’s not.&quot;<p>This is wrong. Facebook offered to buy Snapchat for $3 billion. If there is a better way to appraise market value than the fact that one of the most successful companies on earth is willing to buy you for that price, I don&#x27;t know what it would be.<p>The notion a transaction has to occur for there to be a &#x27;true&#x27; value set, is also false. Try telling the IRS your billion dollar company is worth a dollar, because it has never been involved in a merger &#x2F; acquisition &#x2F; publicly floated. That simply is not how companies are valued in accounting or finance (aka anywhere that matters when determining valuations).
tomasienover 11 years ago
This is going to make my life so much easier for the next few years as these situations come up more and more.
mariusz79over 11 years ago
This &quot;As long as we keep pumping out good IPOs, we’ll be fine.&quot; And this &quot;Fundamentally, bubbles need the mechanics of a ponzi scheme in order to exist. &quot;<p>Translation - keep building crap because there is still enough suckers for this Ponzi to work for a while.
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ontoillogicalover 11 years ago
&gt; All of the firms making investments into the Snapchats and Ubers of the world are sophisticated private equity funds with capital pools so large they can afford to take large risks. After our little discussion, you can now see that their bets are actually not quite as high risk as commonly thought.<p>&gt; No, the real danger still comes later when the public markets get involved. When those retail investors with their mixture of envy and disbelief try to cash in on something they don’t understand. That’s when we should be nervous.<p>Somehow reading lines like this makes me nervous <i>now</i>.
rz2kover 11 years ago
Since this article is meant to be accessible to a lot of different audiences, it is difficult for me to parse what statements are just liberties being taken for the sake of an easier explanation, or whether it is arguing what I think it is arguing.<p>In a fundamental sense, the value of a share of a company&#x27;s equity is the current value of that share of future earnings (including future unknown lines of business, proceeds of liquidating assets, etc) until the end of time.<p>In order to divine the <i>expected</i> current value of future earnings is the marginal cost of a share of the company&#x27;s equity. Just as the price of the last lot of GE shares sold determines the value of GE, the value of Snapchat <i>is</i> determined by the price of the most recently sold share.<p>That does not mean that any shareholders have an accurate assessment of the value, and knowing the recent price is ~$25 does not tell us how many people would be willing to buy it for $1 or how many people would sell it for $100. Knowing the answers to the latter questions would be a step toward answering how much current shareholders could get if they all wanted out, and how much it would cost to buy every last share.<p>Since eternity takes a long time, the market&#x27;s marginal price of a share is a good proxy for the value of a company. It is the expected value according to investors with the most recent skin in the game. Anyway, that&#x27;s a long way to get to what I find really puzzling:<p>&gt;When you look at the rumored Snapchat valuations of over 3 billion dollars, it’s difficult to understand how an investor can think that Snapchat is worth that much. Because the truth is, it’s not. Those rumors, even if true, don’t actually value Snapchat at 3 billion dollars. To be precise, they are bidding on a price per share of a specific series of stock. As matter of common discourse, we multiply that number by the total number of shares outstanding and call that a valuation. But the difference still exists and it’s important.<p>I&#x27;m parsing the middle sentence with &quot;value&quot; as a transitive verb, and the subject as actually an implied &quot;investor&quot; rather than &quot;rumor&quot;, in line with the sentences before and after. And, I find that the serious problem here is that that <i>is at least</i> the expected value according to that investor.<p>I read the rest of the explanation as a way to get at how the probability distribution around that expected value may play out, but that does not change the expected value.<p>However, to expand a little on the payouts: Suppose the disruption of Snapchat could be known to cost a competitor future revenue with a present value of exactly $3B, but the present value of all earnings of an independent Snapchat could be known to exactly equal $2B. If that competitor can buy and shutter Snapchat without any anti-trust hurdles, then in a fundamental sense the competitor would pay up to $3B for Snapchat (and the shareholders would fundamentally be willing to sell if paid more than $2B, with the market eventually awarding between $2B and $3B to the owners depending on what is negotiated).<p>In reality those numbers can not be predicted, but a valuation of $3B is a statement that the expected value is really worth $3B. An investor who pays $300M for 1%, but expects the future proceeds to be worth less than $3B is gambling that there is a sucker who has expectations that are too high, not respecting fundamentals. An investor could estimate that the earnings will be a certain amount in the hands of other management and still be in line with fundamentals, but claiming that the price will increase without producing some future cash flow or having a fundamental value to another buyer is a gamble that the market is stupid. (It&#x27;s a safe bet that the market is stupid, but the trick is knowing how stupid, in what direction, and for how long.)<p>Again, maybe I am missing something, or misunderstanding what is being said, but on the surface it is really frightening to read columns like this that appear to claim that an entire market can have a mean of valuations that are not in line with fundamentals.
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dsugarmanover 11 years ago
with raising money at a $3b valuation, even considering liquidation preferences, etc. you severely limit your exit opportunities. A $3b acquisition is technically a possibility but I would assume everyone is looking for at least a 2x exit, so now you need to be purchased for $6b. Taking money at such a high valuation can be a serious risk because if you can not get to that $6b IPO or acquisition (in snapchat&#x27;s case I do believe that would be very difficult to pull off) you will not be in good shape.<p>These late stage investments are looked at like they are really low risk when in reality, it is always a substantial risk until you have a working business model. We say cash flow is king, but invest in the exact opposite fashion and flock to vanity metrics. Look at how Fab (a company everyone assumed would become the next monster e-commerce company) is flailing and trying to raise money every month while losing all viewership. I fear companies like twitter can foil the public market because less informed investors just equate them to facebook and there is some substantial chance this looks like a pump and dump in a couple of years.
fileartsover 11 years ago
TLDR; Snapchat is probably worth more to Facebook than it would be to other players in the market or to acquirers simply interested in cash flows to equity.<p>So it would appear from the comments and from the article that there is a bit of misunderstanding in valuation theory and how it might apply to the valuations in the media. Hopefully this will help clarify some things.<p>1. FMV of equity is not 100% of the enterprise value of a given company. The enterprise value (EV) of a company is comprised of its equity value plus its net debt (total debt less cash).<p>2. The FMV of a given share will vary based on (as mentioned) the liquidation preference, any dividends and will also be affected by many other possible factors such as redemption&#x2F;retraction, cumulative vs non-cumulative, ability to control&#x2F;vote, etc...<p>Knowing this, it seems that what the author is trying to say is that it is misleading to suggest that the the value offered for a share of class A can be generalized across all classes of shares to provide a valuation. This is a valid and important point. Now, with respect to the valuation of Snapchat, I haven&#x27;t seen the details of the offer to be able to question the basis for the valuation. Typically, a potential acquirer will have a valuation in mind when an offer is made. This may or may not be in line with the valuation that the media publishes.<p>Another issue that I see with what people are saying in the comments here is the confusion of price and value.<p>In the world of business valuation, the only time when price == value is the time when an acquisition offer is made that eventually closes at substantially the same terms. At any other time, we rely on the concept of fair market value as imagined using a hypothetical buyer and seller (there is a very specific definition). We may rely on past transactions as they given an indication of price&#x2F;value at a moment in time to try to come up with a value at another date.<p>Now, none of this talks about the concept of special purchaser premiums, or the additional value that may accrue to a buyer for buyer-specific reasons. It may very well be that Snapchat is worth much less than $3b to most players in the market, however, part of the difinition of FMV is the hist and best price. This means that if Facebook is willing to pay a significant premium over others, then that premium should be considered as an indication of value.
ameister14over 11 years ago
Is the graph just the number of internet IPO&#x27;s in a particular year? Because in the 90&#x27;s it was much more common to have a smaller-value IPO than it is today.<p>[edit] The other thing is that a bubble doesn&#x27;t need to be built on people knowingly selling worthless products. The things people are selling can actually have value, just usually not intrinsic value.
james1071over 11 years ago
The game is pretty simple. Most of the cash will usually be invested in the later rounds. This would massively dilute the early investors unless the valuation was much higher. Hence, they will push for as high a valuation as possible.
gwu78over 11 years ago
Maybe &quot;valuation&quot; does not represent the value to future investors. Maybe it represents the magic number required for the early investors to achieve the return the venture capital (or other) firm promised them.
taybinover 11 years ago
Seems like if he splits winning into big wins and small wins he should also split losses into big losses and small losses too.
mergyover 11 years ago
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