TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Should RapGenius be able to "negotiate" with Matt Cutts and Google?

122 pointsby pccampbellover 11 years ago
I started my tech career working in Adwords Sales and Sales Operations at Google. One of the biggest complaints we received was our clients needed help getting ahold of someone regarding SEO problems. Of course, there was little we could do on the paid side - which was Google&#x27;s policy.<p>The whole point of Google&#x27;s ranking algorithm is to keep it as much of a black box as possible with even Jason Calacanis getting nowhere with his Mahalo battle with Matt Cutts and team.<p>I&#x27;m uncomfortable with what appears to be almost a direct line the RapGenius gents have with the Google team to come to what they&#x27;ve coined as a &quot;resolution&quot; between the two entities.<p>With thousands of other sites being unable to get ahold of a human being at Google to resolve SEO problems, do you think RapGenius should have the ability to negotiate with Google? Do they have enough traffic to justify the conversation? Should that matter?

24 comments

captainmuonover 11 years ago
I&#x27;ve said it a couple of times. Google (with others like Facebook, Apple) is so big, its essentially infrastructure, and needs to be regulated.<p>It&#x27;s not just that they can penalize other companies, and competitors (wheter they have a &quot;legitimate&quot; reason or not). They can make people&#x27;s ideas, political positions, etc. essentially disappear.<p>A stupid example: If they wanted to oppress trade unions, they could penalize every page with information about unions when someone searches for &quot;workers&#x27; rights&quot;. More likely, they could work with oppressive governments to remove certain unpleasant historical events from people&#x27;s sight.<p>I wonder why the European Union doesn&#x27;t do anything... they used to be very strict about antitrust laws, privacy, etc.. Probably someone has to step up and sue Google for them to get active. I could think of a few things they could do here.<p>- One is to force Google to make their rankings more transparent.<p>- Google could have offer a kind of appeals process if a manual penalty is applied.<p>- The EU could put a special tax on the market leader, which would fund a subsidy for promising competitors. (Google&#x27;s European office is currently registered in a low tax haven in Ireland.)<p>None of this is without precedent, but there would have to be the right political intent to get something like this started.<p>And before someone says Google is not in the EU&#x27;s jurisdiction: Europe is a huge market. They have already fought antitrust trials with Microsoft, and MS could have said &quot;screw you guys&quot; and stopped doing business here, but instead they paid their penalties, because anything else would have been crazy. And if the EU is not going to do it, there are very self-conscious governments in Brazil, China, and India that might put pressure on Google &amp; co..<p>(OTOH, we know that Governments like monopolists like Google when they help them censor and surpress information, but that&#x27;s a different topic.)
评论 #6964535 未加载
评论 #6965018 未加载
评论 #6964437 未加载
评论 #6964468 未加载
评论 #6966393 未加载
评论 #6964577 未加载
评论 #6964659 未加载
评论 #6964533 未加载
评论 #6964532 未加载
评论 #6967574 未加载
评论 #6964537 未加载
评论 #6965222 未加载
andrewljohnsonover 11 years ago
Matt Cutts should also probably recuse himself from this issue. He is an investor in a YC round and multiple YC companies. That&#x27;s an obvious conflict of interest, whether or not it affects the outcome.<p><a href="http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/disclosure/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.mattcutts.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;disclosure&#x2F;</a>
评论 #6964317 未加载
评论 #6964679 未加载
评论 #6964306 未加载
bushidoover 11 years ago
<i>&gt; do you think RapGenius should have the ability to negotiate with Google</i><p>No.<p><i>&gt; Do they have enough traffic to justify the conversation</i><p>Yes, maybe.<p><i>&gt; I&#x27;m uncomfortable with what appears to be almost a direct line the RapGenius gents have with the Google team to come to what they&#x27;ve coined as a &quot;resolution&quot; between the two entities.</i><p>So am I.<p>In the past I have seen Google responding and resolving penalization with some sites, where in the problem lay in the internally, with intentional&#x2F;unintentional shady practices.<p>I have no problems with this.<p>But RG took some of their activities to a whole different level, one that I have seen before by blackhat marketers only. Just like I would not expect blackhat marketers to get away with it, I would not like Google or any other search engine to open doors to the possibility of people who got caught to have an easy out.<p>Maintaining neutrality and upholding previously established best practices would also be fair to any new start-ups that may want to enter the lyrics space.
评论 #6964315 未加载
blueyes1977over 11 years ago
I found ridiculous so many things here:<p>1. Their black SEO practice around Justin Bibier as they call themselves RapGenius (LOL)<p>2. Those are the guys we&#x27;re talking about. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NAzQPll7Lo" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=4NAzQPll7Lo</a> (show me love ...yes)<p>3. They were 100% illegal, beside the big investment they got, they didn&#x27;t pay copyrighters for using their lyrics. <a href="http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/11/13/rap_genius_copyright_lawsuit_national_music_publishers_association_threatens.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.slate.com&#x2F;blogs&#x2F;browbeat&#x2F;2013&#x2F;11&#x2F;13&#x2F;rap_genius_co...</a><p>Now that said, why the hell someone like Google has to negotiate with them ?<p>b
austenallredover 11 years ago
The difficulty from the standpoint of Google is the absurd scale that they have to deal with. Indeed, a mission of indexing all information and making it immediately available is a daunting one.<p>I get the sense that HN feels like these penalties are a rare thing; this type of ranking penalty is happening to an absurd amount of websites every day. If you were to rank the number of websites that received a manual penalty from Google on the same day as RapGenius by amount of traffic, my guess would be RapGenius wouldn&#x27;t be in the top 10. They&#x27;re not in a position to &quot;negotiate&quot; with Google, and Google doesn&#x27;t &quot;negotiate.&quot; They slap your wrist when they find you doing something dirty, and you try to recover your reputation. The only reason Google would try to work with RapGenius would be because of the PR RapGenius can generate, which appears to be happening, but there&#x27;s no way they will just remove the penalty. My guess is at best RapGenius will get an expedited path to have the same options as any other site owner.<p>The only recourse a website owner has when they have received a manual penalty is to disavow bad links, and hope that somehow they&#x27;ve identified all of the bad links in their link disavow. This is a nefarious process for even the best of SEOs, and the process is quite poor; I&#x27;ve even discussed this with Matt Cutts in the past, but it&#x27;s understandable considering the scale Google has to deal with. You can&#x27;t exactly have people taking phone calls. And in Google&#x27;s defense, they only penalize you if you were trying something sketchy anyway, so it&#x27;s your fault for playing with fire (except in the case of negative SEO, but that&#x27;s another discussion).<p>That said, while this ban will hurt RapGenius in the short-term, the penalty likely won&#x27;t last forever. And considering that it doesn&#x27;t appear that they&#x27;re monetizing, it&#x27;s not like they&#x27;re losing revenue, just traffic for a short-term. Penalties like this, if properly disavowed, usually last about 30 days.<p>Interestingly enough, I&#x27;m unsure how much the SEO spam would have helped RapGenius in the first place; all of the links would have had the exact same anchor text, which raises some red flags for Rap Genius. I&#x27;m not sure of the kind of scale they were trying to hit with the blogs, but it was likely either 1. Not going to move the needle or 2. Become so big it would hurt them. Even disregarding ethics of anti-black-hat SEO, it really was just a poor move on the part of Rap Genius SEO-wise.<p>&quot;Move fast and break stuff&quot; can come back and bite you sometimes, but I&#x27;m confident RapGenius will figure it out in the end.
评论 #6964392 未加载
评论 #6964458 未加载
评论 #6966157 未加载
bobbyi_settvover 11 years ago
Is there any evidence that Google is negotiating with them? As far as I&#x27;ve seen, the only reason to think that is happening is that rap genius claimed they are as part of their attempted damage control. Most companies are basically shut down over Christmas and I doubt people at Google have been spending this week negotiating with them. What am I missing that led you to the opposite conclusion?
评论 #6964757 未加载
jhonovichover 11 years ago
Google did not say they were &#x27;negotiating&#x27; with RapGenius. The claim about &#x27;working with&#x27; comes from RapGenius. It could be that RapGenius is mistaken or just thinking optimistically.<p>Let&#x27;s see what happens but it seems like a stretch that Google would feel compelled to &#x27;negotiate&#x27; with RapGenius.
lazyjonesover 11 years ago
I don&#x27;t see why RapGenius should get a better customer service than everybody else from Google (i.e. none at all). Being able to negotiate anything at all would be way better than what paying customers (e.g. AdWords) get these days ...
sergiotapiaover 11 years ago
I also think it&#x27;s pretty bad how the RG guys seem to be able to invoke Google at will.Especially considering how they&#x27;ve broken almost the most basic of Ranking Rules and used black hat techniques.<p>I&#x27;d like a direct response from someone in charge from Google. Why, and how, are the RG guys getting 1 on 1 support?
评论 #6964320 未加载
scottmcleodover 11 years ago
No - SEO is not a game to play in grey area, its a risk that they took by depending upon SERP for their source of traffic.
评论 #6964184 未加载
评论 #6964224 未加载
jbigelow76over 11 years ago
<p><pre><code> &gt;I&#x27;m uncomfortable with what appears to be almost a direct line the RapGenius gents have with the Google team to come to what they&#x27;ve coined as a &quot;resolution&quot; between the two entities. </code></pre> What do you mean by this, was there another update since the initial penalty was levied? RG still appears to be gone from the serps.
评论 #6964805 未加载
lingbenover 11 years ago
I&#x27;m confused, is there a new development? what do you mean by negotiate? The last thing I read on this was that they were penalized. Are they back in the SERPs?
newnewnewover 11 years ago
Google can do whatever they want. If I was the victim of a public name and shame like this which included a very public Google punishment, I&#x27;d think it would be in Google&#x27;s best interest to make an example of me and to make an example of how to get back in their good graces. Google may have shitty customer service, but they don&#x27;t want it to appear that way in a high-profile case.
paulrademacherover 11 years ago
Where do you see this &quot;direct line&quot;? I&#x27;ve seen no sign of that.
nknighthbover 11 years ago
I&#x27;m happy every time it&#x27;s made clear that search engine results are the product of subjective factors and aren&#x27;t &quot;fair&quot;. It bolsters the argument that their results are expressive and protected as such, shielding them from interference by politicians.
dasmithiiover 11 years ago
There&#x27;s a good chance that they&#x27;re gaining page hits from this controversy and, knowing the founders of Rap Genius (vaguely), I wouldn&#x27;t be surprised if they capitalize and conjure as much attention as possible here.<p>On a slightly different note, it doesn&#x27;t seem right for Google to intervene with specific companies&#x27; page rankings. Although Google isn&#x27;t breaking laws, the &quot;black box&quot; type of generic algorithm seems more ethical. Rather than favoring individual groups&#x2F;sites&#x2F;corporations, I think Google should maintain credibility by encompassing all rules, regulations, and penalties within one algorithm. Search engine results shouldn&#x27;t be subjective.
评论 #6964941 未加载
gesmanover 11 years ago
The fact that Rapgenius claimed to be in negotiations with Google does not mean that they are in fact having some sort of &quot;migration to white hat strategy&quot; personal meeting with Cutts in the same room.<p>&quot;Live&quot; person at Google might as well be delivering the old same beaten up &quot;write unique content&quot; and &quot;remove bad links&quot; message to them, albeit in personalized format.<p>I don&#x27;t think rapgenius is big enough to buy Google a drink for a free personalized SEO tips.
zoltar92over 11 years ago
This is a slippery slope. You have to keep in mind that &gt;2% (some estimates as high as 7%) of Google Queries are related to lyrics&#x2F; RG related content. They also (arguably) have much better, much more <i>relevant</i> content. As such a large amount of google searches would end up with someone wanting a RapGenius page - it&#x27;s only fair that they would get preferential treatment over a niche startup&#x2F;site&#x2F;blog.
评论 #6971319 未加载
pastpartisanover 11 years ago
the rankings will be restored. rich, successful ppl always get their way
redthrowawayover 11 years ago
No. RapGenius broke the rules, and the punishment is temporary. Suck it up, take your medicine, and don&#x27;t do it again.
RBerenguelover 11 years ago
They should just receive links to usual webmaster recommendations and Cutts&#x27; YouTube. And that should be it.
rickyc091over 11 years ago
They shouldn&#x27;t, but they probably will due to their investor.
z_over 11 years ago
No.
DanBCover 11 years ago
Fuck no.