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Why we should give free money to everyone

147 pointsby epsylonover 11 years ago

22 comments

kijinover 11 years ago
The most important lesson that we should draw from experiments like Mincome is that <i>we need more experiments of this type</i>.<p>Dauphin, Canada was one town in one country in an era that is now forever gone. Since 1973, the politics has changed, the economy has changed, and culture, religion, ideology, and (of course) technology have also undergone tremendous changes. The Internet alone should be a total game changer. Mincome serves as a good anecdote and inspiration, but it is largely meaningless to argue (for|against) basic income based on that data alone. We need more data points, and we need them to be more up to date.<p>Because right now, all we have are a precious few data points from 40 years ago and&#x2F;or from the other side of the globe, and a bunch of hopeful statements that haven&#x27;t really weathered any test of evidence (e.g. economic efficiency will increase, or not; people will be happier, or not). Without solid evidence, statements like that are little more than expressions of ideological preference, both on the left and on the right. &lt;&#x2F;edit&gt;<p>The experiment should be repeated, as many times as possible, in various times and places, and for longer durations (5 years, 10 years, 20 years, long enough to study a generation of children who grow up under the scheme). Accumulate enough data to support arguments (whether pro or con) that are based more on actual evidence than on anecdotes and ideological assumptions.<p>Will it be possible to implement a basic income of $20,000+ per year in the United States in 2014? Absolutely not, the political environment is not ready for it. But will it be possible to run basic income experiments on a smaller scale (Vermont, are you listening?) throughout the next two, three, four, five decades? Of course it&#x27;s possible, and at the end of it we&#x27;ll be a lot more capable of 1) making informed decisions and 2) squashing the opposition. It doesn&#x27;t matter whether you support or oppose basic income today. Show me data or GTFO.
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yummyfajitasover 11 years ago
I don&#x27;t get it. According to the article, Basic Income causes working hours to drop 9% in the American controlled experiment. They try to explain it away by acting as if 9% is small, and providing anecdotes suggesting in some cases it might be a good thing.<p>For comparison, the great recession resulted in a 3.4% drop in GDP. Now, a 9% drop in work will result in less than a 9% drop in GDP (wealth is increasingly produced by machines, not people, resulting in a lower labor share of income), but even so, 9% is big.<p>By the way, as I always ask when this topic comes up, can someone link to actual studies? I.e., hard data rather than an innumerate reporter breathlessly advocating a proposal because it sounds cool?<p>Incidentally, a back of the envelope calculation (<a href="http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2013/basic_income_vs_basic_job.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.chrisstucchio.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2013&#x2F;basic_income_vs_basic...</a>) suggests that it would be vastly cheaper to adopt FDR&#x27;s employer of last resort policy. If we are going to adopt a radical overhaul, lets consider the full search space.<p>[edit: some sources about the third world are cited on the right, not the bottom, and I missed them on first reading. Thanks davidx.]
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hcarvalhoalvesover 11 years ago
Here&#x27;s an idea: why don&#x27;t we stop giving free money to the government instead?<p>If I didn&#x27;t had to work half of the year and give ~40% of my income to a corrupt government I could have more money&#x2F;time to invest and improve other people&#x27;s lives directly, and a party wouldn&#x27;t be able to manipulate the poor with welfare programs and stay in power indefinitely. The elite largely manages to avoid taxes anyway... the current system just slaves the workers in the name of good intentions, and is incompetent&#x2F;corrupt at spending the money.<p>EDIT: For those who don&#x27;t know, Brazil already runs a program like that since 2003. The government spends in that program about half of the budget estimated for public hospitals, roads, water and sanitation. It didn&#x27;t changed the situation of the poor, public services are still crap (the only the poor have access to), there&#x27;s no infrastructure to generate jobs where these poor people live. The end result is that we now have a portion of the population dependent on the federal government, and that&#x27;s used to manipulate elections.
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Shivetyaover 11 years ago
We are already giving tens of millions of people free money.<p>Basic income is institutionalized poverty. It is a world where we purposefully place people in permanent poverty. Give them enough to survive but not climb out of their situation. Essentially paying them just enough so they hopefully don&#x27;t try to take other people&#x27;s stuff.<p>The danger is that far too many people will accept this standard of living. It removes a great burden from government when it realizes it can buy off people for a fractional amount of what it would take to raise them up. It also makes the &quot;feel good&quot; crowd happy as they don&#x27;t have to do anything themselves but feel that because they paid taxes that they in turn somehow helped.<p>Sorry, seen too many on on SSI&#x2F;SSID, section 8, and such, to believe that just handing money out helps. It simply stagnates far more than it will ever elevate. It might work in countries where your choice is a dirt hut, being dragged into some regional conflict, places where survival is questionable at best.
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mietekover 11 years ago
&quot;Modern methods of production have given us the possibility of ease and security for all; we have chosen, instead, to have overwork for some and starvation for others. Hitherto we have continued to be as energetic as we were before there were machines; in this we have been foolish, but there is no reason to go on being foolish forever.&quot;<p>— Bertrand Russell, &quot;In Praise of Idleness&quot;<p>If you agree, sign the EU unconditional basic income petition:<p><a href="http://basicincome2013.eu" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;basicincome2013.eu</a><p><a href="http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/our_chance_to_end_poverty" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.avaaz.org&#x2F;en&#x2F;petition&#x2F;our_chance_to_end_poverty</a>
gaiusover 11 years ago
No-one will oppose this more fervently than those employed on very good wages in the present system.
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brokenparserover 11 years ago
<p><pre><code> &quot;The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people&#x27;s money&quot; -- Margaret Thatcher</code></pre>
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dschiptsovover 11 years ago
Giving money to 13 people proves nothing, it cannot even be considered as an experiment, while giving money to a substantial percentage of population will result in a commodities price hikes or inflation.
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11thEarlOfMarover 11 years ago
In general, it is basic human nature to be active and productive, and interact with and contribute to a society. The poor have that nature as well, and in most cases they are poor due to a lifetime of adverse family circumstances or perhaps one bad decision ( <a href="http://priceonomics.com/what-its-like-to-fail/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;priceonomics.com&#x2F;what-its-like-to-fail&#x2F;</a> ). They can then be trapped as poor simply from having no time to plan an exit and no runway to execute it.<p>My observation is that the 13 homeless persons in London found that having the cash gave them time away from the full-time activity of surviving so they could think, reflect and plan, and, it gave them the runway to execute their plan.<p>This concept of basic income has been occupying my thoughts quite a bit lately, particularly when I venture in to San Francisco. Each time I think about it, as a thought experiment before reading this article, I can see far more good coming from it than harm.<p>What I think, and seems to be supported by the article, is that giving (for example) $1,000&#x2F;month to every adult in America would play out like this: A family of 4 would have $24,000 per year guaranteed income. If both parents worked minimum wage jobs earning another $16k each, and I do believe they would, they&#x27;d have a household income of $56k on minimum wage jobs. They could situate in a reasonable school district, afford to pay more rent for a safe neighborhood, afford reasonable health care and focus on raising their kids. The kids will do better in school, the family can feed themselves less unhealthy food, there will be less anxiety about the basics and less domestic conflict.<p>The studies in the article -seem- to support that outcome.<p>$12,000&#x2F;year per adult not already on welfare or social security would cost about $2 Trillion per year. To put that into perspective, Social Security costs $1.3 Trillion in 2013. Cost of all social welfare programs was $529 Billion. The GDP came in at around 17 Trillion.<p>The US could afford it if we really wanted to. So what I&#x27;d like to hear are the counter-arguments. Is it inflationary? I&#x27;d say it has to be. Is it fair? If every American receives it, regardless of their wealth, then I don&#x27;t see how it would be unfair. Is it realistic? It seems that the US was pretty close to something along these lines in the 60&#x27;s and Obama finally got universal health care through. Perhaps it is realistic enough to at least put a true, modern pilot program in place and convince ourselves one way or the other. It really seems better than the alternative: Status quo for the homeless and the poor.
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the_watcherover 11 years ago
Do we not already do this to some extent with welfare? I know it&#x27;s not optimal, and honestly, I tend to fall closer to the belief that if we are going to have welfare systems, they are more effective if you just give cash rather than the convoluted and easily gamed system we have now, so I see where this is coming from. To address worries about drug&#x2F;alcohol abuse and the like, maybe some kind of system where you qualify for a bit more if you submit to testing or something like that? Not sure if it&#x27;s workable or what externalities that introduces, but in general, giving more freedom to spend your safety net aid seems like a win to me.
krupanover 11 years ago
If we do implement a basic income and do away with other forms of welfare, how far will we go with the &quot;doing away?&quot; I assume we&#x27;d get rid of programs like food stamps and WIC. What about other forms of government welfare, like Pell grants? Student loans? Farm subsidies? Obamacare? There&#x27;s a lot you could cut that would make this an easy sell for conservatives and&#x2F;or libertarians. There&#x27;s a lot that you could argue needs to be kept even though we&#x27;ve added basic income that would make this a very hard thing to sell.
teekertover 11 years ago
I imagine a problem would be to determine exactly what the level of this salary would be... Enough for an apartment? single room? Food and Clothing? Or would the economy evolve to make the values of money such that you can just live from the basic income?<p>What stops people from wanting more and more making just sitting at home gaming more and more attractive?<p>What would I do? Start working the absolute minimum to keep my house, feed my kids and start something or my self? How many people would do that?
ishenerover 11 years ago
if i was given free upvotes, i would not just sit around and do nothing, i would upvote this article so much more!
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elwellover 11 years ago
The thirteen people seem to have been periodically checked-up on; they surely felt a bit of accountability as the subjects of an experiment. Give out &quot;free money&quot; on a large scale, and the accountable disappears; with it, likely the positive outcome.
OhHeyItsEover 11 years ago
Yeah, but it&#x27;s not about helping people - <i>it&#x27;s about sending a message</i><p>(at least, in the US)
marknutterover 11 years ago
The thing about basic income that doesn&#x27;t make sense to me is how to set it. Basic income for someone living in rural South Dakota is going to be drastically different for someone living in San Francisco.
jbb555over 11 years ago
This is just insane. For a start exactly can you give free money to everyone, where exactly does it come from? The only source of money is other people. So you&#x27;d be taking away money from one group of people and giving it to others. You are discouraging the ones who get money from working because they get free money instead. You are discouraging those from whom you took the money because what&#x27;s the point in working if someone is going to take away your money and give it to those who don&#x27;t.<p>I don&#x27;t just consider this unworkable, I consider it basically evil.
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dsugarmanover 11 years ago
we should definitely find a way to get cash to the poor, but I think there may be private market solutions like a taskrabbit for social projects that employee the underprivileged to do social good financed by the wealthy.
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harryhover 11 years ago
There are 314 Million People in the US. We can&#x27;t afford to give everyone enough money to have a meaningful impact on poverty. Seriously people, do the math! It&#x27;s basic arithmetic.<p>In order for the welfare state to be effective, it needs to be targeted towards the people that need it.
swahover 11 years ago
Read Von Mises!
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whatevsbroover 11 years ago
People get carried away with the idea of handing &quot;free money&quot; out to poor people, without realizing that there is <i>no such thing</i>. All money has to come from <i>somewhere</i>.<p>If a government is handing out money, there are three options:<p><pre><code> 1) Money has been confiscated from other people. 2) Money has been printed. 3) Money has been borrowed. </code></pre> That&#x27;s it. Money always has to come from somewhere, and governments simply don&#x27;t acquire any without <i>some</i> consequences.
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professorTuringover 11 years ago
Ok, great. Since I belong to everyone, I will accept any &quot;natural&quot; amount of money from anyone. Thank you.<p>Find my paypal account in my profile.
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