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The Rise and Rise of Television Torture

524 pointsby aychedeeover 11 years ago

37 comments

sentenzaover 11 years ago
There are four lights!<p>It is a long time since I saw that TNG episode, but I remember it as a respectful treatment of the subject.<p>Any television series in a modern setting in which characters that are portrayed as &quot;good guys&quot; use torture to achieve their goals is despicable propaganda.<p>There has been more of that lately.
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Doveover 11 years ago
I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s propaganda. It&#x27;s a result of the same feedback loop that gives you the morality of soap operas, the absurdity of reality television, the voyeurism of talk shows, historically the extremity of circuses and freak shows: the need to be more attention-grabbing, more extreme, more must-see shocking than the next guy.<p>It&#x27;s hardly news that watching that kind of stuff gives you opinions that make you a worse person.<p>The way I see it, fiction has a dark side and a light side. The dark side normalizes and revels in darkness, to shock and allure the audience. The light side is shocked <i>at</i> the darkness and stands against it, to educate and enlighten the audience.
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rayinerover 11 years ago
I think the article gets the causality backwards in saying that shows like this &quot;are re-educating and changing attitudes towards this act.&quot; Major-network televisions shows are reactive. They&#x27;re the product of focus groups and market surveys. They are much more likely to reflect trends in culture than to create those trends. They opportunistically take advantage of social trends that already exist.<p>This is clear if you look at how television lags society as a whole when it comes to other social trends. By the time CBS aired a show with two major gay characters (Will &amp; Grace in 1998), more than a third of Americans already supported gay marriage. This year, &quot;Modern Family&quot; will feature a gay marriage proposal, now that 55% of Americans support marriage equality. Going back further, the networks didn&#x27;t air an interracial kiss until Star Trek in 1968, a year after the Supreme Court (itself an extremely reactive institution), struck down bans on interracial marriage. As of 2010, more than 1 in 6 new marriages was interracial, but you&#x27;d hardly perceive that watching network TV, where interracial relationships are still highly unusual. The Brady Bunch, which ran from 1969-1974, pioneered portraying a blended family on TV, with two previously-divorced parents, but by 1969 divorce was already mainstream and divorce rates were comparable to what they are today (they peaked ~1980). In 1960, when TV was still idealizing stay-at-home mom June Cleaver on Leave it to Beaver, a third of the labor force was women.<p>Given the track-record of television when it comes to other social trends, I think it&#x27;s incorrect to say that television is &quot;changing attitudes&quot; towards torture. More likely is that it&#x27;s reflecting attitudes in society more condoning of torture than they have been in the past.
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minikitesover 11 years ago
A similar issue came up when <i>24</i> was popular:<p><a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2007/06/scalia-and-torture/227548/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theatlantic.com&#x2F;daily-dish&#x2F;archive&#x2F;2007&#x2F;06&#x2F;scalia...</a><p>---<p>&quot;Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?&quot; Judge Scalia challenged his fellow judges. &quot;Say that criminal law is against him? &#x27;You have the right to a jury trial?&#x27; Is any jury going to convict Jack Bauer? I don&#x27;t think so.<p>---
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jaimebueltaover 11 years ago
An interesting point in American fiction in particular, is that, generally it always has the lesson: &quot;violence works&quot; or &quot;violence is the solution&quot;. Applying violence to a problem is a pretty common way of solving it. And, of course, a big enough nuclear bomb will fix any problem...<p>A line like Doctor Who&#x27;s &quot;everyone lives!&quot; is very difficult to find in an american show.<p>(It&#x27;s not that I have a problem with american fiction, I just find it curious)
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zhaphodover 11 years ago
People who coined the term enhanced interrogation should be subjected to the said interrogation. Joking aside, I agree with the overall point the author is making. There is a torture creep in the culture and people are getting insensitive to what it means. Because it feels good to catch the bad guy and do unspeakable things unto him and get the location of the ticking time bomb. What most people don&#x27;t realize is that torture doesn&#x27;t work. The person being tortured will give what ever information the torturer is looking for to stop the pain. However, that is an inconvenient fact that people tend to ignore.
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securingsincityover 11 years ago
I think part of this is certainly the mystique of the cowboy cop trope [0]. They&#x27;ll do anything to get their man, even if the man in the next room thinks they&#x27;ve gone to far. and they get results. And your rogue cop has to be bigger and badder than Harry Callahan and whomever came after.<p>And then a little of art imitating life, &quot;real people are doing water boarding, the audience needs to see something worse than that&quot;<p>[0] <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CowboyCop" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;tvtropes.org&#x2F;pmwiki&#x2F;pmwiki.php&#x2F;Main&#x2F;CowboyCop</a>
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memracomover 11 years ago
The TV channels really should buy more Russian TV series and overdub them. The Russians have made tons of movies about the war with fascist Germany (and its aftermath because it did not really end on VE day) and there was a lot of torture used by both the Soviets and the Nazis. But it was often ineffective in that the victims either died without saying anything or they misled their torturers resulting in serious loss to the enemy who believed the info received from torture. And the folks who had real good info knew that they would be tortured, and when they realized that they were about to be captured, they either committed suicide or shouted to their friends to be shot to death.<p>In other words, anyone who follows the truth of torture use during a historical conflict will realize that it does not work well.<p>In fact, what worked better was to trick the person into revealing info. These were often set up as complex double and triple bluffs because the folks in charge knew that their prisoner would try to trick them back and therefore they had to outsmart the prisoner. In one case, the Nazis did a complex bluff where they booked up all the port time at three French ports, and all the rail shipping slots between France and Germany. They had two goals. To get a Soviet spy ring to report back with encoded messages containing the names of the three ports so that they could get a foothold in cracking their cipher, and convincing the English (and Soviets) that an invasion was imminent so that they would waste efforts. In fact the plan was to move additional forces to the Eastern front.<p>In that case the Soviet spies outfoxed the Germans when they learned that all the trains were empty and therefore did not report the port names in code. And this warned the Soviets of a German push coming up in the next few weeks so they were better prepared.<p>There are a lot of fascinating stories from the Eastern Front waiting for someone to take the trouble to overdub them in English.
elipseyover 11 years ago
This recapitulates many arguments made by Georgetown law&#x27;s David Luban in the excellent 2005 essay &quot;Liberalism Torture and the Ticking Bomb&quot; which we should all go read right now :)<p><a href="http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1163&amp;context=facpub" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;scholarship.law.georgetown.edu&#x2F;cgi&#x2F;viewcontent.cgi?ar...</a>
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Toucheover 11 years ago
Very interesting! I would look at the depiction of torture in Fringe in another light though. X-Files was a cult show that ran on Friday nights (first few seasons) with low expectations. Fringe had high-expectations from the start, had J.J Abrams named attached and (this part is a guess) a more expensive cast. It never did very well in the ratings and was on cancellation watch for most of its existence. It actually did follow the &quot;Monster of the Week&quot; formula more often the first couple of seasons but then started emphasizing the overarching plot more often in the later seasons. The threat of cancellation, I think, explains the use of eye-catching tactics like torture, and how they seemed to retcon the previous season, each season and start an entirely different plot. They never expected to keep going and didn&#x27;t plan very far in advance.<p>X-Files had very different constraints which were only relaxed as the years went on and their budget increased. You can actually see the point in season 2 where the show is beginning to become popular enough that they start having better make-up and effects.
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pasbesoinover 11 years ago
&quot;24&quot; is one of the most brilliant (in its use, if not its composition) and effective pieces of modern&#x2F;contemporary propaganda that I&#x27;ve seen.<p>I think it played a <i>significant</i> role in U.S. society&#x27;s development over during the first decade of this century. Hell, I observed this, first hand, in my friends. When your erstwhile quite liberal and at least mildly &quot;flower child&quot; longtime friend -- who &quot;can&#x27;t&quot; miss an episode of &quot;24&quot; -- starts telling you that maybe torture is necessary...<p>I hope Kiefer Sutherland has sleepless nights...
dobbsbobover 11 years ago
Torture is pointless since the counter-interrogation method while being tortured is to never admit to anything. Giving any information just invites more torture because if there is a bit of info then there must be more and they will keep torturing you, at least according to the IRA green book. The French wrote about how useless torture is for intel as well when they decided to use it wholesale in the Algerian war. It produced nothing, yet in 2014 this fallacy is still around and we are still doing it.
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tehwalrusover 11 years ago
I can&#x27;t help recalling Firefly, where (spoilers) only the worst, most sadistic bad guy (Adelai Niska) tortures people[1]. He does so using any method he can, not to get information but just because he loves to do it. It is obviously also a warning to other people not to annoy him, but this is almost a secondary purpose, at best equal with causing immense pain to his enemies.<p>This is a reasonably accurate depiction of torture, as far as I understand the science of it, and it&#x27;s one of the few reasons torture might actually be used (i.e. at the orders of a complete psychopath.) - although Mal Reynolds seems unfeasibly good at resisting it (any evidence that this occasionally happens? I&#x27;d be interested to hear.)<p>[1] You can read about the character here: <a href="http://firefly.wikia.com/wiki/Adelai_Niska" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;firefly.wikia.com&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Adelai_Niska</a> and you can buy the DVD of the original series here: <a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Firefly-The-Complete-Series-DVD/dp/B0001B3YTM" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.co.uk&#x2F;Firefly-The-Complete-Series-DVD&#x2F;dp&#x2F;B...</a> (check out, in similar items, the film Serenity, which rounds off the plotlines from the series nicely.)
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gojomoover 11 years ago
I see it as a variant of the &#x27;hedonic treadmill&#x27;. So many scenes of extreme behavior, by &#x27;bad guys&#x27; and &#x27;good guys&#x27;, have already been done in filmed&#x2F;televised entertainment, that audiences are habituated to all the usual situations and nastiness. New works must keep going more extreme, in both what happens <i>and</i> what&#x27;s shown on-screen (as opposed to suggested), to hold attention.
zavulonover 11 years ago
I wrote a blog post about this back in 2005, when Hostel was coming out. It seems that&#x27;s right about our fascination with torture on TV has started. While I cringe at my writing from 9 years ago, it seems like things have only gotten worse since then.<p>&gt; With seemingly inevitable theatrical success of &#x27;Hostel&#x27; and recent mainstream movies such as &#x27;Passion of the Christ&#x27; and &#x27;Sin City&#x27; reveling in accurately depicting violence and torture, I started thinking what does that say about our society and what horrors are next in line for the viewers, hungry for more blood and suffering. And then it dawned on me - almost this exact situation was already predicted, in a dystopian 1966 sci-fi story by Robert Silverberg called &#x27;The Pain Peddlers&#x27;.<p>&gt; &#x27;The Pain Peddlers&#x27; depicts a scary, bleak and sarcastic view of the future - in the early 00&#x27;s, television is king. And what brings most money to TV networks is live surgery. In the story, the main character is a TV producer who got a very promising prospect - an old man suffering from gangrene and a family, too broke to take care of the hospital bill. The old man needs to have his leg amputated, and the family agreed to do it on live TV. It&#x27;s the producer&#x27;s job to convince the family to have the amputation without anesthesia - for more money, of course. Nothing brings in the viewers quite like real human agony.<p>&gt; Remembering this story, which I read long time ago, was a very scary experience for me, because... in 1966, when it was written, it was pure fantasy - the notion of something like that actually happening never occurred to Silverberg or his contemporaries. But does it sound that incredible now? With TV viewers getting tired of same-old reality shows and public&#x27;s growing hunger for violence, how long until a new reality show depicting real surgery appears on, say, HBO? Probably not right away. But I can definitely see something like that happening, not too far away in the future.
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InclinedPlaneover 11 years ago
Casual, unthinking propaganda. And worse, unthinking rationalization for real-world torture.<p>So often you see the &quot;good guys&quot; being badasses by using torture, brutality, or simply ignoring the rights of suspects. And frequently they are rewarded for it, lauded for it, and there aren&#x27;t any downsides. The good guys never screw up, the suspected bad guys turn out to be the real bad guys, and so on. All of this has become cliche as storytelling elements in police procedurals, but they give people a very dangerous idea about the value of torture and the non-value of the rights of the accused.<p>It&#x27;s so bad that the vast majority of people doing it don&#x27;t even realize what they&#x27;re doing, don&#x27;t realize how much they are propagandizing torture and police brutality.
mvaliente2001over 11 years ago
Ah, do you remember the old good times when Terry Gilliam&#x27;s Brazil came out, and the idea of a SWAT team destroying your house, imprisoning and killing your husband, all due to a bureaucratic mistake, was a bizarre fantasy of a dystopian and dictatorial future?
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nickthemagicmanover 11 years ago
I&#x27;ve been noticing television and media getting more and more brutal over the years.<p>Batman and Robin have transformed from tights wearing guy&#x27;s saying holy rusted metal to driving military hum-Vs with gatling guns.<p>The joker has transformed from a goofy prankster makeup wearing guy to a all out sociopath who slices happy faces into people with knives.
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pessimizerover 11 years ago
Real torture has been policy for over a decade; no one has been prosecuted for it, and the evidence was intentionally and unashamedly destroyed.<p>Why shouldn&#x27;t television reflect reality? Torture isn&#x27;t wrong or illegal anymore in the US.
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donpdonpover 11 years ago
The treatment of torture on TV is important for the reasons OP states. I disagree that torture is becoming more prevalent on TV, though perhaps because I watch less of it. Here are the scenes I can remember from childhood onward.<p>1. Knight Rider - not exactly torture but Michael was in a contest with someone else to tolerate pain, afterwards it was revealed the other person was not connected to the machine.<p>2. Star Trek - I can remember Kirk in a reclined chair on the Enterprise, looking up at something that was causing great pain.<p>2. ST:TNG - The Picard scene is memorable because it affected so many people due to the show&#x27;s popularity.<p>3. Firefly - This was particularly well done &#x2F; graphic because I think Nathan Fillion is very good physical actor.<p>One of the ways torture affects the lives of ordinary americans is through the Taser. Youtube has some eye-opening examples of tasers being used for the wrong reasons. Its a near impossible line to walk between non-lethal force and pain as coercion.
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Bulkingtonover 11 years ago
Police beatings have long been a staple of movies, theatre, literature. In reality, police beatings have been a staple of the exercise of authority since Kubrick&#x27;s representative ape picked up that bone.<p>Selection bias: There&#x27;s always been a generational slant, depending on whether revolutionaries or reactionaries were the more popolarly romantic at the time.<p>Truth: beatings hurt, and lead to more beatings. Pacificism always fails, except in art&#x2F;fantasy.<p>Too lazy, depressed to cite the obvious. Wikipedia search quietly on your own.<p>(To those disappointed in the moral failings, hypocrisy of US, compared to grade-school patriotic version: Like Babe Ruth&#x27;s boozing, FDR&#x27;s disability, JFK&#x27;s infidelity, polite media just didn&#x27;t discuss certain unpleasantness. Guess what: it still doesn&#x27;t. That&#x27;s what worries me. And I&#x27;m the least conspiracy-minded malcontent I know.
blah32497over 11 years ago
The very best torture scene I&#x27;ve read or scene was the one in Day of The Jackal - where they torture the legionnaire to divulge the location of the OAS leadership. Putting myself in his shoes, there is no way - no matter the importance of the information - that I wouldn&#x27;t break.<p>The main difference between that scene vs. say Babylon 5 or StarTrek is not only the violence (for instance Captain Picard doesn&#x27;t have electrodes connected to the end of his penis) but the fact the the person being tortured <i>knows for a fact</i> he will be killed after it&#x27;s all over. There is not psychological game going on: the reason he ultimately divulges information is so that the pain will stop. He <i>wants</i> and begs them to kill him.<p>I&#x27;ve never seen an equally powerful scene in any movie or book.
amagumoriover 11 years ago
it&#x27;s important to realize that our popular TV shows are full of propaganda. it&#x27;s subtle stuff, not out-and-out endorsements of political or social positions, but more along the lines of assumptions that are reinforced and left unopened. the purpose of the stuff isn&#x27;t to change people&#x27;s minds, but to solidify norms. i can&#x27;t even count how many times i&#x27;ve seen &quot;set &#x27;em up to knock &#x27;em down&quot; characters - usually in the bad guy role.<p>there will be a character, usually a bad guy, with a certain ideology that will be delegitimized (usually some sort of anti-status-quo or anti-power thing). sometimes they will portray the character&#x27;s ideology as good-intentioned, to give an effect of objectivity in the storytelling. but ultimately this character will be shown to be misguided, emotional, immature, or otherwise ideologically inferior to the &quot;good&quot; character. i see this shit a lot in crime and law enforcement-focused shows. i&#x27;m sure some people would argue that i&#x27;m being hypersensitive and that there&#x27;s no ulterior motive behind these portrayals, but i can&#x27;t remember a single time that i&#x27;ve seen an anti-government or &quot;rebellious&quot; character not delegitimized in one of these shows.<p>yes, it&#x27;s just a character, but our ideological positions are weighted quite a bit on these &quot;stories&quot; - for many people, more so than facts. many hard-line conservatives would get angry at being called a &quot;liberal&quot;, not because of their political differences, but because on some level they embrace a story where liberals are milquetoasty, limp-wristed, privileged turtleneck wearers, and conservatives are hard-working everymen trying to do right by their family. many liberals, for their part, embrace similar but reversed stories about conservatives. sure, maybe if you read hacker news you don&#x27;t base your political views on stereotypes like this, but these stereotypes do their work by remaining in the back of everyone&#x27;s mind. for average americans that don&#x27;t explicitly try to be objective in their political and social positions, these stories actually hold a lot of sway. our TV storytelling enforces and solidifies these sort of stereotypes.
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RankingMemberover 11 years ago
The GTA5 torture scene with Trevor and the car battery, pliers, etc. was difficult to participate in. If I recall correctly, he at least didn&#x27;t get anything useful out of him, which would&#x27;ve implied that the ends justified the means.
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atmosxover 11 years ago
It&#x27;s not just torture that&#x27;s taking place on TV, it&#x27;s violence in many forms.<p>When my sister asked me to described <i>breaking bad</i> series, knowing her so well, the first word that came out of my mind without seven thinking was: Violent.
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smokey_the_bearover 11 years ago
Torture has become so common in tv shows it has become difficult for my husband and I to find anything to watch together anymore. The genres we used to both enjoy are so filled with torture that I can&#x27;t stand to watch them. He is willing to, but doesn&#x27;t enjoy those scenes. Are there really a lot of people who want to watch prolonged, gritty torture?
radleyover 11 years ago
The previous articles are about &#x27;Scandal&#x27;, &#x27;24&#x27; and &#x27;Homeland&#x27; which are torture-filled entertainment. Quite a (linkbait-ish) leap to focus vaguely and exclusively on Fringe.
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squozzerover 11 years ago
The big lie about torture is that it&#x27;s actually relevant to the matter under pursuit. The government really doesn&#x27;t care that much about guilt or innocence, once it decides someone needs removing they go about doing it in the most politically expedient manner available.
thenomadover 11 years ago
I&#x27;m not that sure it&#x27;s a new trope: &#x27;70s British cop shows (<i>The Sweeney</i>, et al) tended to show information being extracted by force, too.<p>However, it may say some things about the society where it&#x27;s popular - &#x27;70s Britain wasn&#x27;t a very happy place in some ways.
valarauca1over 11 years ago
The article is interesting, but what caught my eye more is the possibly spoofed DNSSEC cert.
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sigzeroover 11 years ago
&quot;Are you not entertained!?&quot; - That is what drives it. People need more and more.
elwellover 11 years ago
I think every episode of &quot;24&quot; has at least one instance of torture.
n2j3over 11 years ago
Considering the effectiveness of torturing (and whether &quot;they&quot; lie about it) kind of blunts the argument against torture tout court. Other than that, I thoroughly enjoyed the article.
Grue3over 11 years ago
Yeah, and videogames cause people to murder. What a load of bullshit.
michaelochurchover 11 years ago
Here&#x27;s why, in the real world, the &quot;good guys&quot; almost <i>never</i> use torture. At least, it&#x27;s so rare that the likelihood of torture having a good use in one&#x27;s lifetime can be rounded down to zero.<p>Torture isn&#x27;t (despite what many say, wanting to believe that evil never works) <i>completely</i> ineffective at getting information. It gets some signal (and lots of noise) but it&#x27;s inferior to, and also <i>antagonistic to</i>, more effective forms of interrogation. The world is morally murky, and it&#x27;s rarely clear who the good and bad guys are, and it&#x27;s a lot more effective to get someone to warm up to you and your cause. If you cause so much pain to inflict PTSD, you&#x27;re never going to get someone on your side.<p>The &quot;ticking time bomb&quot; scenario is laughable when applied to real life. But it also makes one completely wrong assumption: that the torturer often wants the truth. Most who have used torture, throughout history, wanted the opposite.<p>Torture is <i>very</i> effective at &quot;extracting&quot; a completely <i>distorted</i> or just wrong account (false confessions and accusations) that can be used for political purposes, none good. If you want an exponential growth in the number of convicted witches, torture can do that, as world history has proven.
carsongrossover 11 years ago
Yes, but who are we to judge?<p>Who, indeed.
Shivetyaover 11 years ago
I seem to recall in X-Files people just disappeared. The same occurs in many police dramas and even movies with similar settings.<p>Whats worse, showing torture or off screen killing people? These are not shows about bunnies and unicorns, they are about dangerous, exaggerated or fictional at best, subjects, and will not necessarily portray characters in the best of light.
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