Here is an important point for the non-Germans, so that you can understand why this was even asked for:<p>Unlike the German rabble, its political leaders (with very rare exceptions) are personally invested in the "trans-atlantic partnership". The underlying assumption on the German side is of course that this is a partnership among equals.<p>Team Merkel is hoping sooo bad that a high-ranking US official will come out to tell them that they haven't been just a bunch of chumps. I wonder how they will react now that it has become clear that that won't happen.<p>They'll probably just step up their self-delusion game.
Possibly, this may actually be a good thing, at least as far as the internet is concerned. When governments realise that they can't get any "special exemptions" put in for them, the only real option left open is to throw their weight behind measures to secure the internet for everybody.
The US government doesn't realize the implications of their actions. A day will come when the US needs German help, support, or assistance in an area of global importance and the Germans will be very reluctant to help because of this.<p>The USA has had it good for a long time and has become very spoiled by it's priviledges.<p>Essentially, the US overplayed it's hand and there will be blow-back consequences.<p>I could imagine a terrorist living in Germany and the US asks for assistance obtaining him and the Germans tell the US to fuck off.<p>It doesn't even have to be a terrorist, it could be a person like Snowden. So, now, instead of assisting the US government, the Germans are actively working against them.<p>Or, I could see the Germans investing heavily in developing technologies that prevent spying. Germany could become a place where you learn how to NOT be spied on.<p>All this because the US Government doesn't know how to treat allies and respect sovereignty.
How ironic will it be if the next generation of German kids has to rise up to fight the totalitarian might of the USA? I see it happening, already .. truly a staggering circumstance that we are here now in the 21st Century, and not even Germany can stand up to the tyrants.
What's the point of a No Spy treaty if people will break it anyway? Being a cynic, if you're going to spy anyway, isn't it better to have a situation where everyone knows that everyone else is spying, and have fake outrage? (I'm assuming that the treaty won't stop anything)
The German government was hardly really negotiating a no-spy treaty. They benefit too much from the exchange with the US (at least that's what they think). Remember, the NSA is not supposed to spy on US citizens, just as the German BND is not supposed to spy on Germans. So they spy on each other's citizens and exchange the information.<p>So far so good for Merkel and friends. What probably upsetted them was that the German government was spied upon, too. Also, they were just second-grade allies, and the US was probably trading information with the UK for example, which they didn't share with the Germans (see the "Five Eyes" agreements). But it's hard to believe that any of this is news to the German government, if their intelligence agencies are any of their money worth.<p>So the big question is, why do they tolerate being spied on? I know, diplomacy is complicated, and you have to make a lot of delicate compromises, and there is a lot that you can't see from outside.<p>Nevertheless... Espionage is already punishable in Germany. If a German citizen is involved, they might even be charged with treason. If I were Merkel, I would just casually mention the possibility of pressing charges in this case (you can file charges against anonymous in Germany), and use this as leverage e.g. when negotiating trade agreements.
Were they able to secure such a treaty, why would there be any expectation that it'd be meaningful?<p>After all there's and obvious disconnect between the various spy agencies and political process, with the former typically giving less than lip service to most treaties/laws in the past.
The article directly contradicts itself.<p>>A government spokesman said the talks between the US and Germany were ongoing and they hoped to “get something in the next three months.”
This was only a cover-up by the Merkel administration to win the election in last autumn. Of course, some people that where in the delegation wanted to get some little success to bring home ... but the US showed that they are the rulers and the US is the big boss.<p>I hope, that slowly some people in Germany wake up. The success of Merkel shows, that many still dream their econony wonder (German: "Wirtschaftswunder") dream of the 70s. But the Germans do not realize, that they have been mucked around. Germans are the country in Europe that has sold their interests most to the US, maybe with the exception of Britain.
I grew up in the US often hearing stories of Israeli intel agencies spying on the US. 'Everyone spies on everyone, even allies, it's no big deal,' was what everyone always said.
Besides the valid points already raised in the discussion it also shows that the US isn't considering the German intelligence service as a threat. Either because they expect German politicians not having the balls to order it to spy on the US government or because they consider it too incompetent to do so or because they have it in their pockets.
After reading this, I clicked on the "6 quotes on Germany from Americans" gallery. MLK Jr said "Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal."<p>Kinda hits the NSA nail on the head.