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Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

180 pointsby j0nccover 11 years ago

29 comments

timrover 11 years ago
The current San Francisco influx is unsustainable. If you&#x27;re somewhere else in the world and thinking about coming here to do a startup, I wish I could convince you to change your mind.<p>San Francisco is incredibly expensive. Rents have shot up by ~50% since 2008, office space is following the same trend, and competition for (even mediocre) programmers is intense. Worse, a lot of the cultural diversity that made San Francisco interesting has been driven out by the high prices -- it&#x27;s a much more homogenous city than a few years ago, where mom-and-pop shops and other neighborhood amenities have been replaced by places selling $10 &quot;artisinal grilled cheese&quot; sandwiches and &quot;mixology&quot; bars where you can buy your choice of $15 cocktail. SF feels increasingly like a city for wealthy yuppies, because...it <i>is</i> a city for wealthy yuppies. Living here on anything less than a good engineer&#x27;s salary is becoming a tall order.<p>Which brings us to a very important point for all the young programmer dudes: when you all crowd into the same tiny city and bid up the rents into the stratosphere, your available dating pool shrinks to a puddle (yet another consequence of the skewed gender balance in tech. sigh.) All the pour-over coffee in the world doesn&#x27;t make you happy when you can&#x27;t get a date, and those artisan cocktails are far less cute when you&#x27;re jockeying for position at the bar in a crowded room full of guys. If you&#x27;re a 20-something male programmer looking for a date in SF, I feel badly for you. Hope you like BART, because you&#x27;re going to Oakland (if you&#x27;re lucky!)<p>Once upon a time it was only a mildly bad decision to locate your startup in San Francisco, but you could justify it with the appeal of a diverse, cosmopolitan city. Right now, there&#x27;s a very real financial penalty (rents, salaries, taxes), and the cultural benefits are waning. There are a lot of great cities in the US, and on the internet, you can work from anywhere. Try those instead.
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howradicalover 11 years ago
Former STL startup founder here (slicehost). We were from St Louis, so starting the business here made sense and gave us several distinct advantages (cheap power, data center space, etc).<p>For startups, it&#x27;s currently an ideal place IMO. There are quality people here doing whatever it takes to help people get a business started. Money? They can help. Space? They can help. Introductions? They can help. A low cost of living gives you plenty of time to figure things out. Throw in a ton of good restaurants, a decent art&#x2F;music scene, a couple of good universities and you have something worth serious consideration. Biggest downsides are weather (winters are chilly) and you need a car.
carsongrossover 11 years ago
&gt; If you’re trying to bootstrap, being based in San Francisco is awful.<p>Especially if you have a family. I rented a four bedroom house in a great neighborhood in Sacramento that was a bike ride from Midtown for $2900&#x2F;mo. We ended up buying a bigger house in the same neighborhood for even <i>less</i> per month. No commute, food is cheap, etc. The cost savings are enormous, and I&#x27;m sure it&#x27;s more expensive than St. Louis...<p>Yep:<p><a href="http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/sacramento-ca/st.-louis-mo/50000" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bestplaces.net&#x2F;cost-of-living&#x2F;sacramento-ca&#x2F;st.-l...</a><p>The trick outside the Bay Area, if you are consult-strapping, is keeping the contracts coming in. Probably better in areas like St. Louis than in Sac.
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randallsquaredover 11 years ago
I was in St. Louis for Strange Loop 2013, and I was pretty astonished at how nice (and uncrowded) the downtown was. I asked about it at <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/1mlum2/whats_wrong_with_st_louis/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;StLouis&#x2F;comments&#x2F;1mlum2&#x2F;whats_wrong_...</a> and got some interesting responses. The &quot;what&#x27;s wrong with...&quot; was in the sense of &quot;surely it can&#x27;t be as great as it seems here?&quot;, by the way.
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zinssmeisterover 11 years ago
And so it begins. The Bay Area is starting to lose some of its talent to other areas (in an already tight talent market). This is just one example and I ran into a few others in the past 2 months, that are in a gtfo state. I have also tried to hire good people from other areas of the country that used to be interested in SF but are no longer seeing it as a nice place to actually live, because they too can do the math.
petercooperover 11 years ago
This is one of the things I&#x27;m jealous of America for coming from a British perspective: that is, a wide variety of cities being technologically advanced and good for startups, tech and businesses generally. Think Austin, think Raleigh-Durhan, think Philadelphia, think Seattle..<p>Everything in the UK is so grotesquely skewed towards London when it comes to modern tech. Some other cities aren&#x27;t entirely horrible (Manchester, say) and some have a technically progressive air going for them (Brighton) but it sounds like even St Louis as a relatively small US city has more going for it in one place than most top tier British cities that aren&#x27;t London (say Leeds, Nottingham, or Birmingham).
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ChrisNorstromover 11 years ago
If you&#x27;re looking for &quot;San Francisco&quot; feel, crowd, look, shops, and trendy neighborhoods in St. Louis. Go to the &quot;Central West End&quot; District. If there&#x27;s one thing St. Louis can be proud of it&#x27;s that district. That whole area from Forest Park (bigger than Central Park in New York) including the neighborhoods around it, Barnes Jewish Hospital, Children&#x27;s Hospital Complex, GasLamp District, Central West End is really nice.
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clavalleover 11 years ago
I love St. Louis. Certain parts have a European feel that no other city outside of Canada has. There are a lot of extremely bright, hard working people there too. It is odd. It is a city that seems to not know how much untapped talent it has.<p>That being said, there are parts that are rundown and sketchy. There are huge problems with drugs like methamphetamine outside of the &#x27;normal&#x27; urban drug issues that most cities have. In addition, from what I understand, the Missouri tax system is <i>terrible</i> (property tax on many large items you own like cars in addition to your homestead tax and sales tax on top of income tax).
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jack-r-abbitover 11 years ago
Right now it is noon in St. Louis and 19 degrees.<p>Right now it is 10:00 in SF and 53 degrees.<p>I think weather plays a large part in why people like to live in the Bay Area. Many refer to the high cost of living here as the &quot;sun tax.&quot; As I sit in my office wearing shorts and a t-shirt, I can&#x27;t even fathom living in St. Louis.
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dugmartinover 11 years ago
The last picture is of the City Musuem. If you are ever near St Louis with kids you have to go there. It is one of the coolest places I&#x27;ve ever been to.<p><a href="http://www.citymuseum.org/site/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.citymuseum.org&#x2F;site&#x2F;</a>
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dizietover 11 years ago
This is all great, but if you&#x27;re building a company focused on earning money by doing sales (especially one that has you interacting with other tech companies), the amount of clients you can meet face to face in St. Louis (and the size of the deals) is not something I&#x27;d suspect to be competitive with what you&#x27;d find in SF.
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jskonhovdover 11 years ago
St. Louis is great. I wouldn&#x27;t live there. It&#x27;s very similar, at least in my experience, to my hometown of Memphis. The Italian food is obviously better, but we have barbecue. :)<p>America has a lot of great cities. They all don&#x27;t have the technical talent level that San Francisco has, but good culture is not monopolized in San Francisco.
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california_rollover 11 years ago
Welcome to St Louis!<p>There is a very active Meetup group for entrepreneurs here - StartLouis. Please check us out!
alistonover 11 years ago
St. Louis is cheap, but it&#x27;s cheap for a reason. If you think 6th and Market is bad, take a stroll through East St. Louis. It has the 3rd highest murder rate in the country. Violent crime is on the rise. [1] Basically, it&#x27;s one of the most dangerous cities in the country.<p>If that sort of thing doesn&#x27;t bother you, then you&#x27;d probably be better off just moving your startup to Oakland and maintaining a connection to the Bay Area startup network. Or, if it does, move to a more modern, safer city in the South that still has a low cost of living without many of the economic problems of the rust belt cities (and better weather to boot!).<p>[1] <a href="http://www.nbcnews.com/business/most-dangerous-cities-america-832351" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nbcnews.com&#x2F;business&#x2F;most-dangerous-cities-americ...</a>
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nilsimsaover 11 years ago
Why do you have to live in San Francisco city itself. There are many places in the Bay Area more affordable than San Francisco.
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geebeeover 11 years ago
You&#x27;re reminding me of a quote from Patti Smith: it&#x27;s about New York, but it could easily be about SF as well...<p><a href="http://gothamist.com/2010/05/03/patti_smith_suggests_finding_anothe.php" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;gothamist.com&#x2F;2010&#x2F;05&#x2F;03&#x2F;patti_smith_suggests_finding...</a><p>&quot;New York has closed itself off to the young and the struggling. But there are other cities. Detroit. Poughkeepsie. New York City has been taken away from you. So my advice is: Find a new city.&quot;
wjover 11 years ago
I moved to STL last year for family reasons. I had been struggling a bit to figure out things to do so the list in this post is much appreciated.<p>Good luck with your startup!
beachstartupover 11 years ago
if i had a business based in SF and wanted to move, i would move to west LA.<p>actually, i already did that, years ago.<p>SF is a pain in the ass to live in, even if you have lots of money.
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auctiontheoryover 11 years ago
St. Louis may have the best chess scene in the US, or perhaps second only to NYC. Among other things, it hosts the US Championships every year. And Magnus Carlsen has played there. And Anna Sharevich lives there. (I.e. a lot more than the &quot;Hall of Fame.&quot;)
mathrawkaover 11 years ago
I used to live in St. Louis and worked at a startup that was located in downtown (right on Washington Ave) 13 years ago. Back then downtown was dead after 5pm, as everyone left to go home back in the suburbs and not much of a night life in the city.<p>Recently, I went back to visit for the first time in over 10 years. I was amazed that there was a night life, and families would go out to eat in the city! It seems to be turning it self around well, but I am sure there are more hurdles to make it even safer.<p>In addition to it being easier to get funding [1], it sounds like St. Louis is really looking to be a good spot for a startup in the US.<p>1: <a href="http://archgrants.org/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;archgrants.org&#x2F;</a>
mark_l_watsonover 11 years ago
It is not only rent but other things like higher sales and income tax rates in California. My wife and I live in the mountains in Central Arizona and the cost of living is lower than California in many ways.
gkobergerover 11 years ago
Economics aside, and on a more personal note: it&#x27;s a shame to lose Jon. He&#x27;s one of the kindest, most talented founders (and friends) I&#x27;ve met in SF, and it&#x27;s a shame he&#x27;s leaving.
bluesnowmonkeyover 11 years ago
&gt; 3.8x cheaper than San Francisco. Moving to St Louis is going to almost quadruple my company’s runway.<p>It&#x27;s inversely proportional to your personal rent? Your company has no revenue, no employees, no office, no servers, no contractors, no contracts, no other costs in general? Is that really a company?<p>I don&#x27;t think you&#x27;re moving a business, I think you&#x27;re just moving.
hussongover 11 years ago
I wonder what&#x27;s going to happen to Need&#x2F;Want&#x27;s &quot;Designed in San Francisco&quot; claim. Would &quot;Designed in Saint Louis&quot; work just as well?
MetaCardsover 11 years ago
Long-time lurker, just saw this post about my hometown so I created an account.<p>I have a tech business in St. Louis. I love living in St. Louis and will never live anywhere else.<p>A few comments:<p>It is extremely hard to hire\find good programmers. I&#x27;ve posted job ads on Dice and Craigslist, and received 2 or 3 replies. I don&#x27;t think I received ONE reply from Dice. The replies you get are people that can&#x27;t answer the most basic questions.<p>You will HAVE to use a recruiting firm that will try to poach the talent and you have to search out resumes. It will cost at least $50k for a programmer that can&#x27;t even answer the most basic questions in an interview. Fortunately, I got very lucky and found one of the most kick-ass people on the planet.<p>In regards to East. St Louis, as other people mentioned, it is NOT in Missouri, it&#x27;s in ILLINOIS. The only reason people in St Louis go to East St Louis is because the bars stop serving at 1:30 or 2AM. If you want to drink past that, everyone goes to East St. Louis. Either that, or to go to strip clubs. Given that, if it&#x27;s a Friday or Saturday night, you&#x27;ll see a bunch of other St Louisians over in East St Louis at Pops, or the Oz, or at strip clubs. It is definitely a bad area though. I&#x27;ve been to East St Louis many times and have never felt threatened.<p>The bad part of St Louis is North County. Unless you live there, the only reason to go there is for drugs. I&#x27;ve never been there, and as far as I know, you can&#x27;t drink past 2AM there, and they don&#x27;t have any strip clubs. I&#x27;ve driven by there many times, and I knew someone that worked in North County for years and never had any issues. It&#x27;s like any other city, there are parts you don&#x27;t want to venture through by yourself, late at night.<p>Unfortunately, I think most of the crime in both E St Louis, and North county, is local, black on black crime.<p>Downtown is somewhat desolate. If you want to live downtown, there are some cool areas like Soulard which is making a come back. Most people live in West County, South County, St Charles county, etc. I would never live downtown. Most of the action is outside of downtown. There are good sized office buildings in Clayton, West County, etc.<p>In the county areas, there are cops all over the place(which is a good thing). I&#x27;ve lived in a lot of places, and the bottom line is it&#x27;s one of the safest places I&#x27;ve lived.<p>I read HN all the time, but don&#x27;t know much about this start-up. Welcome to St. Louis though! As others mentioned, there are a lot of talented people here.
sabbatic13over 11 years ago
The problem with these places is what happens, when you need to hire people to build your company. The tech world is full of impressionistic statements like &#x27;they have a startup scene,&#x27; but when you start getting numbers on available talent, you&#x27;ll see you&#x27;re putting yourself in a bad position.<p>To take an example where I have better data, people have commented on the vibrant and growing startup scene in Santiago, Chile. Maybe it is vibrant and growing, but the total number of people professionally employed in software development (devs, testers, manager, product managers, etc.) is only about 2000.<p>Split that 2000 into 50 different companies (and 50 tech companies would often be held up as proof of viability for the location), eliminate the high percentage with the wrong skill set for your company, and how likely is it, really, that you could build an engineering team of 20 and sustain that in the face of attrition over time?<p>St. Louis isn&#x27;t going to have more than a few thousand of the same sort of people. Most of them are also not products of local universities with strong engineering programs relevant to most of the kinds of software behind most tech startups these days. The supply therefore is not growing at a steady rate or being replenished.<p>75 startups in one location? What happens, when the half that make it past the founder stage need to hire 3-4 people? Not only are there only a few available devs of any skill level available for each, but they all have dozens of options on the same block.<p>For startups, a higher percentage of engineers in an area employed by companies of 50-people or less actually makes hiring harder. In such a situation, they all have options of more or less equal value, and you have little to distinguish yourself from the others. The fact that SV has Google, Yahoo, Mcsft, etc. alongside a ton of mid-sized and smaller companies makes it easier.<p>If you&#x27;ve ever tried to recruit for a startup, think about how often you bring up ownership, autonomy, &quot;startup culture,&quot; etc. as selling points? How well does that work in an environment, when nearly everyone already has that where they are?<p>This is just a quick set of reflections, but the overall point I hope is made. The truth is that staffing your startup is one of the most brutal forms of competition your business will experience. You&#x27;re one of many, many players competing for an extremely scarce resource that very few founders even know how to identify, qualify, or retain, once they&#x27;ve got them.<p>If you ever plan on building your company beyond a small team of friends and local referrals, you should be doing everything you can to stack the deck in your favor. The Bering Sea may be an expensive and crowded area for gold prospecting, but you&#x27;re still more likely to find gold there than in Lake Michigan.
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brosco45over 11 years ago
SF is all about making money fast for yourself.
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csenseover 11 years ago
Why relocate instead of hiring remote workers?
GFK_of_xmaspastover 11 years ago
A lot of people say SF&#x2F;SV&#x2F;etc is terrible because it&#x27;s full of Californians, but I&#x27;ve lived all over the country and known lots of people from lots of states and I&#x27;d rather live among Californians than Missourians or (god forbid) Texans.
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