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Installing VLC Media Player voids your speaker warranty

490 pointsby mikecaneover 11 years ago

39 comments

jbkover 11 years ago
As the main developer of VLC, we know about this story since a long time, and this is just Dell putting crap components on their machine and blaming others. Any discussion was impossible with them. So let me explain a bit...<p>In this case, VLC just uses the Windows APIs (DirectSound), and sends signed integers of 16bits (s16) to the Windows Kernel.<p>VLC allows amplification of the INPUT above the sound that was decoded. This is just like replay gain, broken codecs, badly recorded files or post-amplification and can lead to saturation.<p>But this is exactly the same if you put your mp3 file through Audacity and increase it and play with WMP, or if you put a DirectShow filter that amplifies the volume after your codec output. For example, for a long time, VLC ac3 and mp3 codecs were too low (-6dB) compared to the reference output.<p>At worse, this will reduce the dynamics and saturate a lot, but this is not going to break your hardware.<p>VLC does not (and cannot) modify the OUTPUT volume to destroy the speakers. VLC is a Software using the OFFICIAL platforms APIs.<p>The issue here is that Dell sound cards output power (that can be approached by a factor of the quadratic of the amplitude) that Dell speakers cannot handle. Simply said, the sound card outputs at max 10W, and the speakers only can take 6W in, and neither their BIOS or drivers block this.<p>And as VLC is present on a lot of machines, it&#x27;s simple to blame VLC. &quot;Correlation does not mean causation&quot; is something that seems too complex for cheap Dell support...<p>Maybe Dell should advise against playing Metal music and should only allow Céline Dion music, because Metal saturates more...<p>EDIT: more details...<p>PS: they even provide a BIOS update for the fix... So, of course, VLC was the issue... <a href="http://www.dell.com/support/troubleshooting/us/en/04/KCS/KcsArticles/ArticleView?c=us&amp;l=en&amp;s=bsd&amp;docid=557836" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dell.com&#x2F;support&#x2F;troubleshooting&#x2F;us&#x2F;en&#x2F;04&#x2F;KCS&#x2F;Kcs...</a>
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belochover 11 years ago
I bought a Dell M1330 laptop a few years ago and the speakers were crap even by laptop standards. This was fine with me, since I planned to use headphones. Unfortunately, the audio output was just as crappy! It had an insanely high noise-floor! I had to get a USB DAC&#x2F;head-phone amp to make things acceptable. Lesson learned: Dell sucks at audio.<p>If the speakers in a consumer device like a laptop can be damaged by maxing the volume then the laptop was not properly designed. This isn&#x27;t a case of a nutty audiophile mixing and matching unknown preamps, amps, and speakers and managing to blow some cones by cranking it to 11. Dell has complete control over the selection of components in this laptop and, if they cared to, could include circuitry to limit power beneath a point that will damage the speakers. They didn&#x27;t. Alternatively, they could eschew a limiter and select speaker components beefy enough to handle the maximum voltage that their DAC&#x27;s can output. They didn&#x27;t. Bad design.<p>If Dell did the math and decided the number of users noticing permanent speaker damage would be small enough that the reduced part costs would outweigh the price of the resulting warranty service, that&#x27;s their decision. However, they should be on the hook to fix damaged caused by their cheap&#x2F;poor design.
donatjover 11 years ago
VLC is incapable of increasing the actual power past 100%, all that is being done is the waveform is being modified to be louder within the allowed constraints. If this wrecks the speaker, any other non-VLCed sound could just as easily, and the speakers are therefore underpowered for the laptops internal amplifier. Class action sounds in order.
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lucb1eover 11 years ago
Anytime I call tech support, I&#x27;m running Windows 7 or 8.1 (depending on which they support) with antivirus installed, firewall on, and the latest MSIE. Hardware does not include an ssd unless that&#x27;s the item I&#x27;m calling about. I will also pretend trying to restart my system and router. Good to know I should add Windows Media Player to the list.
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mikeashover 11 years ago
I&#x27;m surprised that I can&#x27;t find any mention of the fact that this behavior is simply illegal, beyond the blatant technical stupidity. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act in the US prohibits voiding a warranty simply due to the use of third-party parts, unless those parts can actually be demonstrated to be the cause of the problem. The mere presence of a part is not enough. They&#x27;d have to show that your use of VLC actually caused this failure, and since I doubt they&#x27;re keeping the sort of logs that can show that, they have no case.<p>Companies like to talk about &quot;voiding the warranty&quot; for all kinds of stupid stuff, and consumers don&#x27;t know their rights so they often get away with it, but what the law allows is considerably more constrained.
Jareover 11 years ago
That kind of amplitude abuse is the equivalent of pounding very hard on the keyboard for long periods of time - it will break sooner than it would normally have, and can rightfully be considered abuse. However, voiding the warranty simply because of VLC installed is, again, the equivalent of voiding the keyboard warranty simply because you are a bodybuilder.<p>Ok enough metaphors.
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mansrover 11 years ago
When the Samsung ARM Chromebook came out, people quickly found that careless tinkering with alsamixer caused the speakers to overheat and melt the case as a result of being driven with a high DC current. A driver update blocked the control causing the damaging signal routing.
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sklivvz1971over 11 years ago
In professional audio (and even amateur radio) one always puts speakers rated for 1.5x the nominal output of the amp. At least. This makes sure that whatever the input in the amp, the speakers are safe.<p>If Dell doesn&#x27;t build audio properly, how can they blame the users? They really have some gut...
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peraover 11 years ago
Next logic step: playing DUBSTEP voids your speaker warranty
hrjetover 11 years ago
Dell support and policies are utterly broken. I had a Dell Vostro which worked fine except at one time it started emitting fumes when running a CPU intensive task. I was denied warranty because I was running Linux!<p>Since then I have vowed never to buy Dell.
noonespecialover 11 years ago
All products eventually approach &quot;if you use this product for anything at all, it voids the warranty&quot;. How fast they get there is an indication of the integrety (and managerial health) of the company behind them.
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serfover 11 years ago
future headline : &quot;Dell revokes hard-drive warranty for installation of software. Cites excess read and write of sectors akin to abuse.&quot;
Aardwolfover 11 years ago
Shouldn&#x27;t instead Dell make the speakers not be able to get physically damanged by software?
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ChuckMcMover 11 years ago
Seems pretty bogus, sure you <i>can</i> damage a speaker hooked directly up to some audio source, but there so many components between the DirectSound API and the speaker that making a system that can be damaged using the OS API&#x27;s seems quite lame.
__david__over 11 years ago
So basically, Dell&#x27;s crappy speaker&#x2F;amp design can&#x27;t handle square waves at full volume. I suppose you shouldn&#x27;t listen to loud chip-tunes either, then.
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aceofspades19over 11 years ago
I used to work for Dell tech support, and I used to install VLC on customer&#x27;s machines all the time..woops. At that time there was no rule against it and we generally assumed that software couldn&#x27;t damage hardware. When I worked there, Dell seemed to have one of the more lenient warranty policies of any company.
gautamsomaniover 11 years ago
I had once faced the exact same issue once in Mar 2009, so all I did was called them again after some time from a different number and using a different name and told them that No, VLC was not installed. And I got my warranty upheld and speaker replaced.
bmoresbest55over 11 years ago
This is insane. It&#x27;s like saying LibreOffice can ruin your HDD, keyboard or some other BS that they can come up with. I have a Dell XPS M1530, it is five and a half years old and I remember the speakers blowing out in 2009. I got them covered under the warranty no problem. I know I am in the minority when saying that I like Dell and their support, I have had other problems and they have had no problem fixing them. This my start to change my mind...
tokenadultover 11 years ago
What is the current status of the vulnerability in VLC Media Player reported by Secunia? I see that there has been some online discussion of this in places outside Hacker News (which I searched the other day for more information about Secunia&#x27;s vulnerability report).<p><a href="http://secunia.com/advisories/52956/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;secunia.com&#x2F;advisories&#x2F;52956&#x2F;</a><p><a href="http://secunia.com/blog/shooting-the-messenger-372" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;secunia.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;shooting-the-messenger-372</a><p><a href="http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/07/10/1520245/vlc-and-secunia-fighting-over-vulnerability-reports" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;it.slashdot.org&#x2F;story&#x2F;13&#x2F;07&#x2F;10&#x2F;1520245&#x2F;vlc-and-secuni...</a><p>I have tried to update VLC Media Player on one machine on my home network, and the update fails, suggesting that the VLC Media Player installation on that computer may already be compromised by malware (which has previously been detected on that machine). What is the recommendation for current VLC Media Player users to make sure that they have a recently updated, reasonably safe installation of VLC Media Player that doesn&#x27;t open up their computer to other vulnerabilities?
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jokoonover 11 years ago
If DELL is right that would mean even if I craft a sound file with a very high amplitude, play it with another software, it should not damage the speakers.<p>I would have thought windows could limitate the amplitude of the sound sent to the hardware, maybe VLC is somehow bypassing this.<p>Seems like an odd issue though.
AndyKelleyover 11 years ago
I&#x27;m proud of the fact that soon my audio streaming library will be able to void Dell warranties too!<p><a href="https://github.com/andrewrk/libgroove/issues/45" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;andrewrk&#x2F;libgroove&#x2F;issues&#x2F;45</a>
ctdonathover 11 years ago
Possibly relevant anecdote...<p>I once acquired an audio geologic recording of the tragic Christmas Eve tsunami in Indonesia. It was an interesting listen, with a lot of bass&#x2F;sub-base frequencies. Played at what seemed a reasonable listening volume, it managed to destroy my iPod headphones. Seems some sounds can be inherently damaging to less robust equipment when seemingly operated well within sensible limits.<p>(The replacement of said headphones cemented my appreciation of Apple: at a time Apple wasn&#x27;t selling headphones alone, upon my consternation of not being able to buy a set, a clerk ripped open a random box and handed me new headphones gratis.)
g123gover 11 years ago
Even HP has the same policy which I found to my dismay three years back.
jijjiover 11 years ago
sounds like buggy speaker hardware or firmware. How about don&#x27;t use Dell laptops to play audio?
omerhover 11 years ago
I Killed my speakers on Dell Latitude 6330 when increase the volume to 200% (i got them replaced cause its my work laptop)
alteroover 11 years ago
Maybe am I too big nerd, but who would send laptop for repairs without wiping out harddrive first?
xerophtyeover 11 years ago
Random question, if my speakers get blown, and I uninstall VLC before taking in my laptop for repair, does that mean the warranty will cover it?<p>(Yes i suppose that is morally wrong, but so is blaming VLC for your own bad designs)
acomjeanover 11 years ago
This is why I use VLC. On the white polycarb apple macbooks the audio is really quiet. VLC made it useful by allowing me to turn the audio up louder (up to 200%). No damage to speakers here.
lucaspotterskyover 11 years ago
Yeah, my speakers have blown up too... damn Dell and their cheap shit.
razzmatazover 11 years ago
Is this true of the Latitude series of laptops? Or just the XPS? I would think the Commercial grade hardware would be a bit tougher.
pistleover 11 years ago
Who could stand to listen to audio from those crappy speakers, let alone at such a saturated loudness on said crappy speakers?
Glyptodonover 11 years ago
Dell owners should file a class action for use of defective speaker components.
retrogradeorbitover 11 years ago
Audio engineer here. All this means is the speakers in Dell laptops are crap.
JetSpiegelover 11 years ago
Wait, people use laptop speakers?
zephjcover 11 years ago
What kind of person uses crappy laptop speakers for media consumption?
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intinnoover 11 years ago
Yep, happened with me as well in India
guard-of-terraover 11 years ago
This is stupid. They are making speakers that can&#x27;t withstand some cases of within-the-bounds PCM signal.<p>If we had a normal society anywhere on earth they would be sued to the ground there.
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robinhoodexeover 11 years ago
What the...?
zimbatmover 11 years ago
Not speaking of Dell&#x27;s behavior but VLC should maybe add a warning to the settings when the user goes over 100% if it damages the speakers.
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