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New forms of 'racism' arise in science research

20 pointsby kshatreaover 11 years ago

14 comments

d0over 11 years ago
If it&#x27;s a fact, it&#x27;s not racism. It&#x27;s not personal. The fact that races diverged thousands of years ago suggest that they are genetically different through evolution. There&#x27;s a lot to learn from genetic diversity rather than applying the racism badge to it every fucking time and ignoring it to pacify some over-sensitive idiots. This attitude is no better than witch hunts and mandatory religious laws.<p>The contents and tone of the article are awful and an affront to science and assume everything will result in Nazi eugenics programmes.
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sgt101over 11 years ago
I think that humans are extremely homogenous<p><a href="http://www.ashg.org/education/pdf/geneticvariation.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ashg.org&#x2F;education&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;geneticvariation.pdf</a><p>That is to say that the differences between me and the most different human (with not chromosomal disaster like Downs) are so small as to make arranging humans into groups according to their genetics meaningless.
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001skyover 11 years ago
<i>But she warned that science could be &quot;misused&quot; to propagate the belief that people inherently have different abilities<p>...<p>based on skin colour or ethnic background</i><p>Is the issue the variability or the link to causality? Because surely there is variability. The other issues get into statistical considerations relating to interpreting the genome itself. The argument that there is no genetic basis of {race} seems highly flawed at face value. So the question still remains about the co-variance matrices between the two sets of variations. This is where there seems to be a fine line with respect to identifying the data; understandin the data; and drawing conclusions (right or wrong) from the data. But without doing any of that work, it seems highly presumptive to argue there is no information {in that data} per-se, and&#x2F;or to completely disregard it (out of hand). None of this has anything to do as of yet with granting political or social priveledge to certain people or others.
adamnemecekover 11 years ago
&quot;...spreading the belief that races exist and are different in terms of biology, behaviour and culture,...&quot;<p>Wait, is this not generally accepted? (As in, not generally accepted that they are different).
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kremlinover 11 years ago
This stuff really makes my head spin. I consider myself a rationalist, a Bayesian even. If something is true, I&#x27;d like to believe it; if something is false, I&#x27;d like to believe it is false.<p>Whatever is true of race, I would like to believe. Even if it&#x27;s politically incorrect, or even if it&#x27;s not, I would like to believe whatever is true.<p>But I don&#x27;t know what to believe. There doesn&#x27;t even seem to be a noticeable leaning in the evidence for one side or the other. Experts in the appropriate fields say &#x27;There is no scientific basis for the concept of race.&#x27; Experts in the appropriate fields also say &#x27;Clearly there are racial differences.&#x27;<p>Is it a semantic issue mostly? Are some people just afraid of the inconvenient truth? Or is the other side peddling an &#x27;inconvenient truth&#x27; for racists-motivated reasons? I am not coming close to having a grasp on this issue.<p>I only want to believe that which is true.
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yohaover 11 years ago
It was never said that all humans where alike and to be handled the same way. You won&#x27;t give the same birth control methods to male and female individual for instance. When speaking of equality, I think it is implied equality before society: equal rights, same laws, no irrelevant discrimination (I don&#x27;t know how it works but I guess sellers are partially chosen depending on how they look and how attractive they are). It would not mean that you mean to be blind to factual and neutral evidence which leads to technical efficiency. From the original article:<p>&gt; Published research has shown that blacks are more likely than whites to have a blood type that causes sickle cell disease and can protect against malaria, and are more likely to have a certain gene called APOL1, which protects against a parasite that causes sleeping sickness.<p>It is quite a good example of information that could help put a diagnosis on a person taking into account racial aspects. And I doubt it would count as racist in any way. Because not everything is black or white, they is a grey area:<p>&gt; She cited new research urging that children be identified based on their genetically predetermined educational abilities and then put in separate schools that could be used to foster different kinds of learning.<p>This is a border line case: technically, it might mean more proficient teaching using adapted methods for both groups. However, this is also segregation. A way to draw some line would be to avoid discriminating social interactions: in this case, X kids are only interacting with X kids, which make a bias on the population distribution.<p>tl;dr: calling &quot;racism&quot; on non-biased factual evidence is quite harsh, but we need to be cautious when using such facts<p>Note: &quot;non-biased&quot; because Nazis did pretend to have factual evidence against Jews, but it was only pseudo-science propaganda (and, well, they only used it to justify arbitrary discrimination)
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b3ttaover 11 years ago
I think ignoring the differences between races (e.g. hypertension medicine targeted at african americans) is as wrong as ignoring the fact, that genetic differences between 2 people, which might be considered as being from the same &quot;race&quot;, might be much greater.<p>Furthermore &quot;white knighting&quot; for races (i.e. probably non-caucasian ones) is very likely not much better than racism itself (same as the people fighting &quot;for&quot; women and against the jerks at conferences etc.).
vixen99over 11 years ago
&quot;the belief that people inherently have different abilities based on skin colour or ethnic background.&quot;. It certainly appears at present that this is largely true.<p>It&#x27;s odd that on the one hand some people proclaim they are from a certain &#x27;race&#x27;. On the other hand they don&#x27;t want any characteristics of this &#x27;race&#x27; to be drawn to anyone&#x27;s attention because that&#x27;s &#x27;racism&#x27;. Meanwhile we get on with our lives and treat folk as we find them.
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knownover 11 years ago
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;blogs&#x2F;worldviews&#x2F;wp&#x2F;2013&#x2F;05&#x2F;15...</a>
powertowerover 11 years ago
That entire article is nothing but moral supremacy dribble that&#x27;s attacking science by using the R word to immediately claim victory and stop all discussion.<p>The people that used to wear white sheets on their heads, are now the same group of people that the author belongs to... They&#x27;ve just found a new way to make themselves feel superior.<p>They are the people that claim they are open minded, stand for diversity of ideas, and open discussions.<p>Yet the moment you present a counter-view to what they believe, you&#x27;re a racist, a Nazi, your work should be shunned, and you should lose all chances of gainful employment.
futuristover 11 years ago
And then there is <i>speciesism</i>: <a href="http://i.word.com/idictionary/speciesism" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.word.com&#x2F;idictionary&#x2F;speciesism</a>
tokenadultover 11 years ago
I see after I awaken in my time zone that there have been quite a few thoughtful comments on the interesting article kindly submitted here, many of them replies to top-level comments. For participants on Hacker News who like to read whole books or scientific articles on facts about the world they live in, I recommend a specialized bibliography on race<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:WeijiBaikeBianji/AnthropologyHumanBiologyRaceCitations" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;User:WeijiBaikeBianji&#x2F;Anthropo...</a><p>kept in Wikipedia user space and updated from time to time. The actual articles on Wikipedia about the topic of &quot;race&quot; are mostly very low in quality and frequently edit-warred, with one of those articles being one of the ten most edit-warred articles on all of English Wikipedia.<p>The basic fact we can all rely on as we think about these issues is that we are all very closely related to one another, throughout humankind. Every human being is more closely related to and more similar to every other human being than most people imagine. That&#x27;s a consistent finding of molecular genetics research.<p>The United States Census Bureau says<p>&quot;The U.S. Census Bureau collects race data in accordance with guidelines provided by the U.S. Office of Management and Budget (OMB), and these data are based on self-identification. The racial categories included in the census questionnaire generally reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country and not an attempt to define race biologically, anthropologically, or genetically. In addition, it is recognized that the categories of the race item include racial and national origin or sociocultural groups. People may choose to report more than one race to indicate their racial mixture, such as &#x27;American Indian&#x27; and &#x27;White.&#x27; People who identify their origin as Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish may be of any race.&quot;<p><a href="http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/meta/long_RHI525211.htm" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;quickfacts.census.gov&#x2F;qfd&#x2F;meta&#x2F;long_RHI525211.htm</a><p>In other words, &quot;race&quot; categories used by the United States government are arbitrary and are not based on science. A confirmation of this fact is the disagreement between any two countries&#x27; categories for &quot;race&quot;--the same individual can change categories as the individual crosses national borders.<p>Feldman, Marcus W.; Lewontin, Richard C. (2008). &quot;Chapter 5: Race, Ancestry, and Medicine&quot;. In Koenig, Barbara A.; Lee, Sandra Soo-jin; Richardson, Sarah S. <i>Revisiting Race in a Genomic Age.</i> New Brunswick (NJ): Rutgers University Press. ISBN 978-0-8135-4324-6. is a good current book chapter on medical implications of race research informed by genetics. The article notes on page 93 &quot;Finally, it must be borne in mind that the taxonomic problem cannot be inverted. That is, while clustering methods are capable of assigning an individual to a geographic population with a high degree of certainty, given that individual&#x27;s genotype, it is not possible to predict accurately the genotype of an individual given his or her geographical origin. Thus, knowing an individual&#x27;s ancestry only slightly improves the ability to predict his or her genotype. The more polymorphic the markers, the more difficult this is.&quot; Another book chapter, Harpending, Henry (2007). &quot;Chapter 16: Anthropological Genetics: Present and Future&quot;. In Crawford, Michael. <i>Anthropological Genetics: Theory, Methods and Applications.</i> Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 457. ISBN 978-0-521-54697-3, points out that &quot;On the other hand, information about the race of patients will be useless as soon as we discover and can type cheaply the underlying genes that are responsible for the associations. Can races be enumerated in any unambiguous way? Of course not, and this is well known not only to scientists but also to anyone on the street.&quot; A specific example of &quot;race&quot; failing to explain a medical observation is hypertension (high blood pressure), already mentioned in this thread before I posted. The book chapter by a specialist on the development of blood pressure medicines, Kahn, Jonathan (13 August 2013). &quot;Chapter 7: Bidil and Racialized Medicine&quot;. In Krimsky, Sheldon; Sloan, Kathleen. <i>Race and the Genetic Revolution: Science, Myth, and Culture.</i> Columbia University Press. p. 132. ISBN 978-0-231-52769-9. points out that &quot;In medical practice what matters is our shifting understanding of the correlations between such evolving social identities and the evolving economic, political, and environmental conditions to which they may be related. For example, what are we to make of the fact that African Americans suffer from disproportionately high rates of hypertension, but Africans in Nigeria have among the world&#x27;s lowest rates of hypertension, far lower than the overwhelmingly white population of Germany? Genetics certainly plays a role in hypertension. But any role it plays in explaining such differences must surely be vanishingly small.&quot;<p>I have been to different parts of the world, and have met people from all over the world. Sometimes I have met persons of one &quot;race&quot; who look just about exactly like people I know from another &quot;race,&quot; and I have found kindred people (as to any personal characteristic you care to name) among people from all over the world of all different &quot;races.&quot; The race categories are not informative, or at least not informative about individual genomes. In some societies, &quot;race&quot; is a salient enough category that an individual&#x27;s personal experience can be profoundly influenced by race categorization. If you haven&#x27;t read the book before, you could read the book <i>Black Like Me</i> by John Howard Griffin to learn more about that.
dhfjgkrgjgover 11 years ago
Some people have massive, powerful shoulders. And they need them. To carry that chip on their shoulder for so long.<p>Whether their personal chip is racism, sexism, or any other -ism, their chip is the real problem. So, how do we stop them foisting their chips onto the rest of civilised society?
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_random_over 11 years ago
&quot;spreading the belief that races exist and are different in terms of biology, behaviour and culture&quot; - D&#x27;oh!
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