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Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

79 pointsby ulyssesover 11 years ago

24 comments

trekky1700over 11 years ago
I think super accurate mass surveillance is inevitable. It goes with expanding technological capabilities, both government and civilian. I think the real question needs to be focused at how it&#x27;s applied, whether it&#x27;s used solely for good or evil.<p>Fretting over whether or how it&#x27;s coming is simply illogical, focusing efforts on making sure it&#x27;s used properly is the only forward thinking, reality accepting solution.
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mpyneover 11 years ago
Avoiding it is the easy part.<p>The hard part will be maintaining the Open Internet in the face of what Snowden did. He started to force policymakers to realize that a cypherpunk-style completely open Internet is fundamentally incompatible with both network defense needs, normal law enforcement (not to mention the spy agencies that most countries want to run), and even cultural&#x2F;jurisdictional questions on things like data privacy rights.<p>Because the next question that comes after &quot;why was NSA sidestepping the Constitution by peeking at the data abroad?&quot; is &quot;wait, <i>why</i> was <i>my</i> data over in Europe??&quot;, just as Germany is now considering making an EU-centric e-mail so that their citizens&#x27; data remains safe from being treated under American law.
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afutdover 11 years ago
&quot;&#x27;We think the governance has opted for ubiquitous law enforcement.&#x27; Pham whistled softly. Now every embedded computing system, down to a child&#x27;s rattle, was a governance utility. It was the most extreme form of social control ever invented. &#x27;So now they have to run everything.&#x27; The notion was terribly seductive to the authoritarian mind ... The only trouble was, no despot had the resources to plan every detail in his society&#x27;s behavior. Not even planet-wrecker bombs had as dire a reputation for eliminating civilizations.&quot;<p>--Vernor Vinge, A Deepness in the Sky
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lovemenotover 11 years ago
We are in transition between a Nash equilibrium where information was scarce, to another where it will be hyper-abundant and there&#x27;s a temporary window open to exploit the older paradigm, before it completely shifts to the newer. The solution to the problems of privacy is economic. As the quantity of data in the world expands exponentially, so the cost of using it scales. There is at present an unproven hypothesis that more big data delivers proportionally more value. It&#x27;ll soon become obvious that this is not the case. That realisation will be at the root of the next popped bubble. Meanwhile data will continue to expand, with eventually no actor having a hope of resourcing the capture, storage and analysis of it all. As signal to noise ratio decreases, so the business model of any large data gathering entity will fail. The harder they come, the harder they fall.
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higherpurposeover 11 years ago
And we haven&#x27;t seen anything yet in terms of decentralized technology. Distributed apps are about to explode soon [1]. I don&#x27;t know if that will &quot;stop&quot; mass surveillance, as I assume metadata could still be collected unless we think of ways to anonymize almost everything, too, and not just decentralize everything, but at least it should severely limit the mass collection of the content itself. And if we decide as a society that mass anonymization is what we need (in other words, how the Internet was before Facebook, Google+ and post-9&#x2F;11 NSA), I think we&#x27;ll have the technical ways to do it.<p>I believe we should be more optimistic about the future, and I think the author is right that there is a bigger underlying trend here that gives a person <i>more</i> freedom than one has ever had. In a way it feels like how we see the latest economic crisis and see the news about millions of people losing jobs and whatnot, but we forget that if we look at the data, we&#x27;re now much &quot;richer&quot; than we were decades or a century ago.<p>It&#x27;s easy to lose track of the bigger picture. But it&#x27;s also true that any given country <i>can</i> fall from democracy into a more totalitarian state (I think UK is doing that the fastest these days), but it&#x27;s not like we haven&#x27;t stopped stuff like that from happening before, and it&#x27;s not going to be a permanent state.<p>[1] - <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQQEdUoCtdg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=gQQEdUoCtdg</a><p><a href="https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/%5BEnglish%5D-White-Paper" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;ethereum&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;%5BEnglish%5D-White-Pa...</a>
brianbarkerover 11 years ago
Well it&#x27;s already here, so no. The pertinent question is how can we dismantle the surveillance state.
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stretchwithmeover 11 years ago
We can avoid it only if we wake up to the real problem.<p>We don&#x27;t get to pick who represents our interests. We can only vote for preselected choices. This concentrates power in the hands of a few.<p>And these are more immune to voter desires and more subject to other forms of manipulation.<p>Either you exercise your power. Or its up for grabs.<p>We need proportional representation, at least in the House of Representatives.
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rayinerover 11 years ago
It&#x27;s refreshing to read a level headed article on this situation that brings historical context into the analysis. I think the decentralization of technology point is key and underappreciated. Technology makes dystopia harder to maintain, not easier. In feudal times, someone who wanted to overthrow an oppressive tyrant had the very uphill battle of gathering together a large enough army of soldiers to create an effective resistance. Yet the dystopia of the future could be overthrown by a single hacker getting into critical computer or military systems.
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einhverfrover 11 years ago
It is an interesting article. What it seems to be getting at is that there is an elaborate dance of power between individuals and the state. This dance of power exists everywhere and in all ages. It isn&#x27;t clear to me that was is different in kind in Stalinist Russia, though, so part of this article seems to me to be a half-full vs half-empty glass problem.<p>Moreover the present is always being rewritten by government and the media. This is something that&#x27;s been apparent to a lot of people for some time. Not only did Noam Chomsky write extensively on this subject but Hilaire Belloc wrote more or less the same thing about newspapers in 1918 in &quot;The Free Press&quot;.[1]<p>One of the key things Belloc pointed to was the necessity of non-corporate, decentralized, topical, and outright propagandist press to counteract the effects of corporate newspapers. I think he&#x27;d be very pleased to see the current blogosphere. So the author&#x27;s points about the necessity of decentralized technology actually go quite a bit further than the points he makes.<p>On the other hand though, it seems to me that what this shows is that there is no bright line between dystopia and normal life. By some measures, of course, we are already <i>in</i> a surveillance state dystopia. So I am not sure the question is meaningful.<p>The major problem that makes the dystopian elements of the present hard to dislodge however are the twin facts that:<p>1. American culture is very much focused on impersonal institutions of scale (central government, big corporations), and individualism, and this isolates individuals, denying them support break free from the impersonal institutional bonds that we have created in substitute for the bonds of family, neighborhood, and community (which were stronger when I was growing up and are stronger where I am living right now, Indonesia).<p>2. We place our primary protections of the individual not in social ties (common everywhere else) but in documents which purport to restrain the central government (namely the Bill of Rights).<p>My view is that until we can start focusing on building stronger communities, decentralizing government and bringing the power closer to the people, and decentralizing the economy (disfavoring large businesses in favor of small ones) the dystopia will in fact deepen.<p>[1] <a href="http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/18018" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gutenberg.org&#x2F;ebooks&#x2F;18018</a>
vezzy-fnordover 11 years ago
It&#x27;s not so much that governments have less control over us, but rather that technology has enabled them to be more discreet about it. If you&#x27;ve ever read up on the history of intelligence gathering, psyops and unethical experimentation in the U.S., you&#x27;d be shocked by how much civil rights have been violated throughout history, even in the supposed land of the free. However, the old adage holds true: out of sight, out of mind.<p>It&#x27;s true that in general we have more liberties now than ever, but it&#x27;s on the surface. The trade-off is that behind the scenes, you&#x27;re worse now than ever.<p>As for technology enabling Snowden to leak more than he could have without digital methods, that&#x27;s correct. The Pentagon Papers were still relatively large, though. 7,000 pages out of over 20,000 source material, IIRC.<p>Your example of the public uncovering a photo manipulation isn&#x27;t really all that impressive, though. Just one propaganda piece dismantled, but it&#x27;s not like things like this haven&#x27;t been exposed before the advent of widespread digital photo manipulation. At best, the public may have a better eye for such deception, but in the long run these are all trivial issues anyway.<p>Sousveillance is an excellent thing, but ostensibly it has no major effect on police conduct. Simply having citizens film officers is not a deterrent, since the police as an institution are fundamentally overpowered and not given enough oversight. They&#x27;re state auxiliaries. It doesn&#x27;t faze them.<p>Widespread cryptography is a great thing, but at the moment it&#x27;s inaccessible to most people and an arms race. Things will improve in the near future, but how practical will it be at deflecting bulk surveillance states is beyond the breadth of this post.<p>On your last point, you&#x27;re right about the Church Commission publicly exposing NSA and FBI malice. But ultimately, the only effect it had was some formal legislation that essentially did not hinder the agencies from performing clandestine and unlawful operations any bit. This is your fatal error in reasoning. You&#x27;re expecting some surface legislative reform to solve much deeper structural issues. Remember <i>Total Information Awareness</i> and how scandalous it was in 2003? Did public outcry end it? Ostensibly it did, but in reality the agencies just learned to practice better OPSEC and moved to the same goal, but under different names, and more modularized.<p>Can we avoid a surveillance state dystopia? Maybe. But probably not with your solutions.
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zcarterover 11 years ago
An interesting thought experiment that should be informing more of the discussion is to take inevitability for granted.<p>If mass surveillance does exist, the concern becomes equality of access. Information asymmetry is now the problem. Fear of blackmail is moot when everyone already has access to the information. If we must have technology intruding on our privacy, I would personally prefer a world where everyone can intrude, instead of a select few.<p>Fully public, mass surveillance is logical extension and conclusion of if-you-have-nothing-to-hide rhetoric.
adamrightsover 11 years ago
That&#x27;s why the importance of removing bad laws off the books, and reforming what we consider essential liberties is so important.<p>Yes, the observation state is coming as many have said, but how we apply it, and who has the power of checks is the the real question.<p>If every on foot police officer has a camera on their lapel that any citizen can log in to and monitor, if much of the technology behind the monitoring is transparent -- if the people ultimately control the monitoring and its usage is to detect weapons, explosives and true acts of terror...not petty things like teenagers with pot -- then I believe the coming &#x27;monitored state&#x27; will not be as scary.<p>So the removal of bad laws. Maximum liberty in the privacy of one&#x27;s house, and then crazy cameras and detectors for explosives and the printed guns et al is where I hope&#x2F;believe the future can head too.<p>Call it the green tea party ;p<p>EDIT: In my world every printed gun, hell every gun taken out of the household needs to be transmitting its location so I can log on to a &#x27;like google maps&#x2F;latitude&#x27; type app and see exactly where any weapons in the public space are...and anyone caught by the monitors or an officer without &#x27;reporting&#x27; on their weapons would face the severest of consequences.<p>On the counter side though, within the house hold, you can print and make whatever you want. You can do the vices you&#x27;d like, and you can petition for areas within the public space to do such things, as long as I can also see where it is taking place and avoid if I desire too.
suprgeekover 11 years ago
&quot;Can we avoid a Surveillance State&quot; - Very Unlikely.<p>At every level of the Government, the incentives are perversely aligned against this. The local, city, state &amp; national Govts. all want MORE surveillance not less. They will conitnue to chip-away making it more &amp; more difficult to remain private &amp; anonymous.<p>The only force combating these pressures is un-organized &amp; semi-organized &quot;concerned&quot; citizens (and a few watchdogs).<p>What will the outcome be?
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joesmoover 11 years ago
Even without technological advances, the US public school system has been able to teach false history (and other subjects including science) for decades. Sure it can be checked and a minority of students may be angry for being lied to but this has yet to stop the system. It&#x27;s true that information is hardly it&#x27;s primary purpose, that being babysitting, but the perception that school is for learning lends it much credibility.<p>The other major problem is that we are now forced to choose between privacy and innovation. Want to use any cloud based service or any service that operates on remote data? You give up any right to privacy regardless of any corporate policy. Want to be secure and private? Put up with slow tor, no remote services, and no cell phone. If enough people chose the latter, it might make a dent in companies&#x27; bottom line to possibly get them to use their clout to influence policy towards privacy. It&#x27;s unlikely that will happen, and even if it does, until corporate data can be protected from surveillance without a warrant, even that is moot.
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dizzystarover 11 years ago
This article misses the main thrust of mass surveillance, in my opinion, and touches on something I&#x27;ve heard few people ever express.<p>Someone that lived in my building believed in some aspects of conspiracy theories. For example, he believed that Facebook was backed by the CIA. Why? According to him, if you thought about it, all of that information that they had to spend months digging for was now given to them for free, by upfront admission.<p>The point is that we are willingly giving up our rights to privacy. We are openly using, and promoting to our friends, various sites that expressly user our data for their own means. We are the ones who are printing free copies of the keys to our castle.<p>We are already halfway there. This trend will only get worse, in my opinion, and at the end of the day, we will blame the government, but really it was only us to blame because by openly publishing a large part of our private lives, we imply permission for anyone and everyone to have that information for free.
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fleitzover 11 years ago
Sure it&#x27;s easy to avoid surveillance state dystopia... learn from Winston...<p>O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished.<p>He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.
chroemover 11 years ago
How I wish that this title weren&#x27;t presented as a question...
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ChuckFrankover 11 years ago
I worked on this. The Author has tried to examine the question about how to deal with a Surveillance State at a personal level. I don&#x27;t recommend all the projects that I work on, but I certainly recommend this one.<p>M Against M by Declan Tan.<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/M-Against-Declan-Tan/dp/0982280998" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;M-Against-Declan-Tan&#x2F;dp&#x2F;0982280998</a>
sentientmachineover 11 years ago
The question is, which civilization will most thoroughly utilize the superpower that is the internet and getting millions of people to act in unison, as one.<p>We will need new founding fathers to re-write the book on what the most perfect union looks like. Perhaps capitalism is not the best system, considering everyone can instantly know what everyone else is contributing or not contributing.
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lotsofmangosover 11 years ago
I think the more pertinent question is how do we get out of a surveillance state dystopia? We&#x27;ve been in one for quite a while now.
nawitusover 11 years ago
Avoiding surveillance is easy, but it costs money. It turns out most people don&#x27;t want to pay for it, and the market decides in favour of surveillance. (I&#x27;m talking about voluntary surveillance here. Even if there&#x27;s no voluntary surveillance, governments could obviously still spy on you).
drdeadringerover 11 years ago
Avoid?<p>We&#x27;re here.
glaszover 11 years ago
sure we can. or could, rather. if we really would do, so many other things would not be.<p>but we won&#x27;t. we are sheep. and we like it.
snizzysnapsover 11 years ago
I&#x27;m tired of this argument. Really.<p>LISTEN UP: There is only this <i>tiny</i> fraction of the population that cares about surveillance, represented by a tech minority, Hacker News, and Reddit.<p>The rest of the country could care less. They&#x27;re 10x more outraged that Netflix seems a little slow this week, or that their favorite jelly donut is out of stock at Krispy Kreme.<p>We&#x27;ve had a surveillance state for 30 years, and nothing is going to change that.<p>If you don&#x27;t want to be surveilled get rid of all of your electronics.<p>The truth is, the gov&#x27;t is going to continue on the path of a Brave New World, not 1984.<p>Don&#x27;t believe me? 50% of ALL drugs produced in the world are used by Americans. All most people care about is their next bump of Oxycontin with a chaser of Xanex, and the next bit of TV or internet nonsense they are going to piss their time away on.<p>Edward Snowden proved - that deep down - the masses don&#x27;t care, and they certainly aren&#x27;t going to do anything about it.<p>I wish this circle-jerk would end.
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