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IRS Says Bitcoin Is Property

345 pointsby rbcabout 11 years ago

42 comments

patio11about 11 years ago
Somebody in the Bitcoin ecosystem would get a lot of attention if they published an authoritative number for the average Bitcoin price in 2013, which would likely suffice for most taxpayers&#x27; needs for a reasonable and consistent valuation. (Ask a tax professional if you disbelieve that informal recommendation.)<p>This is one of the many equally valid options for e.g. calculating the yen&#x2F;USD conversion if you happen to have many yen transactions which are approximately equally distributed throughout the year. (The Treasury Department has a handy web page listing yearly averages for reference, but you&#x27;re allowed to use any number which is reasonable and consistent. One of the best reasons to keep good books is that you can try several reasonable methods and then consistently adopt the one which is most favorable to your interests. Welcome to taxes, if that being OK is counterintuitive.)
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JumpCrisscrossabout 11 years ago
If I had more time on my hands:<p>(1) Launch a Bitcoin capital gains&#x2F;losses tax approximation application (the &quot;App&quot;) in beta. User keys in their Bitcoin addresses. App searches the block chain for the user&#x27;s entry and exit times. App searches exchanges for the most favourable pricing source. App then returns an approximation of taxes owed&#x2F;to be credited (e.g. in case of coins lost at Mt. Gox). App has a prominent disclaimer across the top warning against using it as tax advice.<p>(2) Bring on board a senior CPA with policy-making experience. Clean up the tax logic of the App under their guidance. Call buddies in the IRS and New York State Department of Taxation and Finance. Ask them to look over the tax logic of the App in exchange for dinner, drinks and equity. Move the disclaimer from the top of the app to the bottom.<p>(3) Call TurboTax and small accounting firms with any public posts about Bitcoin. Meet to discuss a partnership. Parlay into an acquisition.
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scotty79about 11 years ago
&gt; “The danger is the creation of an electronic black market, similar to the cash economy,” Joshua Blank, a tax law professor at New York University, said in a December interview. “That’s what the IRS wants to avoid.”<p>I think demanding over 40% tax on a trivially worldwide transferable, hard to track, easy to secretly manufacture commodity is exactly the best way to create black market.
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jcampbell1about 11 years ago
It seems there are hypothetical scenarios where your taxes could exceed your net worth. If you mine a bitcoin worth $1000, and then it&#x27;s value falls to $100, you could owe taxes on $1000, and the $900 capital loss would only carry forward to the next year.
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jstalinabout 11 years ago
The actual notice from the IRS:<p><a href="http://i.cdn.turner.com/money/2014/images/03/25/IRS_Notice_2014_21.pdf?iid=EL" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.cdn.turner.com&#x2F;money&#x2F;2014&#x2F;images&#x2F;03&#x2F;25&#x2F;IRS_Notice_2...</a><p>[EDIT] - added actual notice
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uptownabout 11 years ago
&quot;Under the ruling, purchasing a $2 cup of coffee with Bitcoins bought for $1 would trigger $1 in capital gains for the coffee drinker and $2 of income for the coffee shop.&quot;<p>So if the coffee shop leaves the &quot;property&quot; as bitcoins instead of converting it over to dollars, and the value of those bitcoins falls before cashing-out, they&#x27;re stuck paying tax on the $2 worth of income despite potentially no-longer having the funds to cover those taxes.
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pat2manabout 11 years ago
I imagine a managed wallet like Coinbase would really help here. They could easily create a report on exactly how much you owe in capital gains. Managing this yourself could get a bit messy.
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Zarathustabout 11 years ago
I don&#x27;t see how this law could be enforceable. Hiding bitcoins from the IRS seems to be trivial and lying about the real acquisition value as well. This is very different from stocks where all trades are overseen by the SEC. You can&#x27;t just go to a neighbor&#x27;s house and pay for stock in cash without telling anybody else.
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ThomPeteabout 11 years ago
Interestingly Denmarks IRS just ruled that it&#x27;s not taxable.<p>(in Danish) <a href="http://epn.dk/samfund/politik/ECE6587289/afgoerelse-gevinster-fra-bitcoins-er-skattefrie/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;epn.dk&#x2F;samfund&#x2F;politik&#x2F;ECE6587289&#x2F;afgoerelse-gevinste...</a>
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rdmcfeeabout 11 years ago
On one hand this makes sense. The IRS is trying to avoid early adopters from cashing out millions by purchasing goods to avoid paying capital gains tax.<p>On the other hand, this is debilitating for people who want to use BTC for day to day transactions. Imagine the paperwork involved. &lt;- opportunity for a wallet app which tracks gains&#x2F;losses
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brudgersabout 11 years ago
Treating Bitcoin as property might make adoption by business problematic in the US because of UCC section 9.<p><a href="http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/03/ucc-article-9-going-kill-us-bitcoin-us-businesses.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nakedcapitalism.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;03&#x2F;ucc-article-9-going-k...</a>
IgorPartolaabout 11 years ago
This is exactly why a sales tax would make things so much easier. Who care about historic price points of when you bought and sold BTC, let alone the historic electricity costs and pool fees when you mined it. You buy a milk shake, you pay taxes. Want food, etc. to be taxed differently? Still easier than figuring out if you are operating a railroad&#x2F;fishing farm in Alaska while running a BTC mining rig to heat your house using sustainable energy from your newly installed solar panels.
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anonbankerabout 11 years ago
This is fantastic news. I&#x27;ll be preparing my 1040v&#x27;s and T5008&#x27;s accordingly. Thanks for the asset determination, IRS!<p>Does this decision open the doors to other currencies (linden dollars, Nintendo store points, air miles cards) being similarly registered as assets?
fatbatabout 11 years ago
Does this mean MtGox users can claim capital loss when filing taxes now? How will users be able to prove that?
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mindcrimeabout 11 years ago
<i>“It’s challenging if you have to think about capital gains before you buy a cup of coffee,” he said.</i><p>This is <i>exactly</i> why we need to quit caring what the IRS, Fed, Treasury, Inland Revenue, etc. think of Bitcoin, and focus on it&#x27;s use (along with Tor, tumblers, and other technologies) as an untraceable, anonymous crypto-currency that lets us <i>avoid</i> dealings with the IRS and agencies of their ilk.<p>Will this work against &quot;mainstream&quot; adoption of Bitcoin? Maybe. Who cares? Personally, I&#x27;m not interested in Bitcoin as yet another way to incur additional entanglements with corrupt, evil and bureaucratic government agencies.<p>Government is damage, and we, the hackers, should be working on ways to route around that damage.
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themattabout 11 years ago
Interesting, but unsurprising. The more interesting aspect is that unlike tangible property, bank accounts or stock transactions that can be audited, this seems practically unenforceable on the IRS&#x27;s part.
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e15ctr0nabout 11 years ago
It&#x27;s worth going back to read what Reuters finance journalist Felix Salmon wrote about Bitcoin almost exactly a year ago.<p>The Bitcoin Bubble and the Future of Currency <a href="https://medium.com/money-banking/2b5ef79482cb" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;money-banking&#x2F;2b5ef79482cb</a><p>Why bitcoin’s rise is nothing to celebrate <a href="http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/04/03/why-bitcoins-rise-is-nothing-to-celebrate/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blogs.reuters.com&#x2F;felix-salmon&#x2F;2013&#x2F;04&#x2F;03&#x2F;why-bitcoin...</a>
Kapuraabout 11 years ago
&gt;Bitcoin miners would have to report their earnings as taxable income with a value equal to the worth on the day it was mined.<p>Maybe the rules are more thorough in reality than in this article, but how would the above statement apply to people who mine in a pool? Would only the person who hits the hash have to report the income? Would all of the miners?<p>Additionally, how does the IRS plan on enforcing any of this? It seems like an anonymous currency would be ripe with disregard for regulators.
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unclebucknastyabout 11 years ago
Am I missing something or would this be nearly impossible to track?<p>You buy some bitcoin here and there and occasionally transfer some to a wallet from which you pay for items. The price of bitcoin is rising and falling constantly, such that when you buy that cup of coffee, you could either be realizing a capital gain or loss of <i>X</i> amount.<p>How on earth would you track this without losing your mind? And, how would the IRS enforce this?
sergiotapiaabout 11 years ago
And how exactly can they know your bitcoin stash amount?
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jcyrabout 11 years ago
So we should be tracking our bitcoin in our wallets by age, such that when spending we incur long term capital gain vs short term (if possible)?<p>Or perhaps use the most recent bitcoin purchased if the value is relatively the same as purchase date, thus seeing no gain (vs say 2 yr old coins which have greatly appreciated).
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politicianabout 11 years ago
I wonder what other &quot;proof of work&quot; algorithms also now generate taxable events. Or whether something mundane like using iterated bcrypt2 turns the resulting hashes into property which I have to report to the IRS?
kevinpetabout 11 years ago
It still doesn&#x27;t clearly address the question of how those who mine bitcoin should be taxed. I guess your cost basis is a prorated portion of what you&#x27;ve spent on bitcoin mining. Very hard to do the accounting.
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timrosenblattabout 11 years ago
Does this mean that Bitcoin are more legit now and will be picked up by more institutions, or since the IRS doesn&#x27;t consider Bitcoin a currency, will that stop companies from using it (for regulatory reasons?)
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Xcelerateabout 11 years ago
Hopefully now that there is some regulation and rules in place, Apple will allow Bitcoin apps. We&#x27;ll definitely need some since now we have to keep track of a bunch of tiny capital gains and losses.
wizzardabout 11 years ago
What does this mean for Mt. Gox users? I know it would be for next year&#x27;s return and we&#x27;re not even sure how much has been lost yet since they are apparently still &quot;finding&quot; wallets.
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rchabout 11 years ago
Compared to getting the general public to accept virtual currencies for everyday transactions, shouldn&#x27;t it be relatively easy to convince those same people to put pressure on the IRS and congress? In fact, this is a particularly good year to begin such an effort, since the Senate is in play in the midterms. If predictions start to indicate an unusually high turnout of virtual currency supporters, it would throw a big wrench into almost every political playbook (which are presently primed for older, conservative demographics).
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antrabout 11 years ago
I&#x27;m not familiar with US tax, but isn&#x27;t property tax in the US something like 200bp per year?<p>If I understand this correctly this can be a huge blow for Bitcoin users in the US
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zacinbusinessabout 11 years ago
How does this work for a coffee shop that does not exchange bitcoin for dollars? Say they sell a medium coffee for $4.44 (that&#x27;s the price I pay for my coffee at my normal &quot;spot.&quot;) Or you can pay, say, .002 BTC (I&#x27;m guessing here on the amount BTC). But let&#x27;s say if you send them bitcoin that they just keep it or spend it somewhere else that also accepts bitcoin (and preferably that also doesn&#x27;t cash them out).
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Xcelerateabout 11 years ago
As a grad student who knows little about taxes (but quickly needs to learn more), what does this mean with regard to the 2 BTC I lost on Mt. Gox?
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Kopionabout 11 years ago
I&#x27;m curious, what does this mean for someone interested in operating a Bitcoin ATM? Is a money transmitter license still a requirement?
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Snail_Commandoabout 11 years ago
Hypothetically, if a person still had Bitcoin drawn from a btc faucet (by that person), would that count as a gift, <i>treasure trove</i> [+], or something else?<p>[+] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesarini_v._United_States" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Cesarini_v._United_States</a>
quakkelsabout 11 years ago
I can&#x27;t tell if this is good or bad. But, does it strike anyone else as odd that the IRS ignores that bitcoin _is_ actually currency? Can they even declare it to be property when the reality is that it is currency?
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csmederabout 11 years ago
What does this mean if a person bought a Bitcoin for $400 last year and now it is worth $583.03. What is the proper way to record this on a tax form? Will they have to pay tax now or when they sell the coin?
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nanidinabout 11 years ago
Still not clear on what the situation is on stocks that are denominated in bitcoins, and that pay out dividends in bitcoins, such as ASICMINER.<p>Is it possible for the dividends to be treated as qualified dividends?
mindvirusabout 11 years ago
Does this make it illegal for someone on an H1B to mine bitcoins?
rainmakingabout 11 years ago
I believe &quot;enforceability&quot; is the key word here.
vinchucoabout 11 years ago
would this ruling encourage more Bitcoin hoarding?<p>&gt;Bitcoins held for more than a year and then sold would pay the lower tax rates applicable to capital gains — a maximum of 23.8 percent compared with the 43.4 percent top rate on property sold within a year of purchase.
dscrdabout 11 years ago
Mm.<p>Bitcoin owners say that IRS is an illusion.
quothaabout 11 years ago
Ummm Bitcoin is not property o.O
mantrax3about 11 years ago
Keep coins in a secret wallet. When you need to change for USD, transfer only that amount to your &quot;public&quot; wallet, and pay taxes just on that.
Eleutheriaabout 11 years ago
Bitcoin says they don&#x27;t care what the IRS says.<p>Take that.