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How to not get ripped off by High Frequency Traders

62 pointsby kevemanabout 11 years ago

19 comments

elecenginabout 11 years ago
Unfortunately, a traditional US retail investor does not have the flexibility described here. Lewis describes Electronic Market Makers (EMMs) and Payment For Order Flow (PFOF) - under these models, your order never actually reaches a market. It is routed directly to a market making firm (usually Citadel, Knight, Pershing, or Getco) that fills the order immediately if the price is marketable and then trades out of the position later. This indirection makes the whole discussion around your position in the order book somewhat moot.<p>It is important to recognize that under Reg NMS the market making firm must fill you at the prevailing market price (the NBBO). While they technically could sweep the market to move the market price before filling, this almost never happens for a retail order since they are so small.<p>For this reason, the whole discussion around HFT &quot;front-running&quot; isn&#x27;t very topical to the retail investor buying individual stocks and it barely affects the cost of execution of funds ($0.43 per $10,000 notional value traded according to [1])<p>In summary, the people fanning this flame are not trying to protect retail investors... If they were, they would focus on the larger scams on the street (exhorbitant management fees for actively managed funds, for example)<p>[1] <a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1928510" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;papers.ssrn.com&#x2F;sol3&#x2F;papers.cfm?abstract_id=1928510</a>
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gizmoabout 11 years ago
A few points:<p>1) This doesn&#x27;t address the front-running issue. (Where different exchanges receive the buy&#x2F;sell order at a different times and HFT can abuse those microsecond differences)<p>2) It&#x27;s a universal truth that people who are better informed are harder to rip off. So that&#x27;s not very persuasive. You can&#x27;t reasonably expect regular people to know in which situations they&#x27;ll be paying a premium for a liquidity service they may not even want.<p>3) It&#x27;s completely fair to ask ourselves as a society if HFT groups are making a contribution to society that warrants the money they make. And if transparency with regard to HFT trading strategies leads regular people and sophisticated investors to make different decisions, then that means that the lack of transparency worked in favor of HFT. Therefore, it&#x27;s reasonable to assume much of the HFT profits are just an externality. The decline of HFT is in part because investors are getting wise to the shenanigans.
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tptacekabout 11 years ago
These discussions would be improved if more of the participants understood the problem of transacting in large blocks of tradable instruments. The impression HN trading discussions create is that there is a universe in which block trades are frictionless or even remotely predictable.<p>In fact, moving large blocks across the market isn&#x27;t just an annoying detail of the markets; it&#x27;s one of the basic fundamental problems of institutional trading, and a large part of the rationale for the existence of brokers. Transacting in blocks of stock is to professional trading what the CAP theorem is to distributed software development.<p>One of the most famous and approachable books about market structure is Larry Harris&#x27; _Trading And Exchanges_. The book is like the TCP&#x2F;IP Illustrated of money. It is supremely readable and written in a style that software developers in particular will find congenial. You can get a Kindle version of it right now. I feel extremely comfortable recommending it. It is a great read.<p>The example of trying to move a large block of (fictitious) Smithsonian Industries is one of the opening, motivating examples the book uses to outline the challenges of trading. The inheritor of a huge chunk of Smithsonian Industries needs to sell 900,000 shares of thinly-traded stock. The example continues:<p><i>Goldman&#x27;s block brokers face the following predicament. If nobody knows that they have stock to sell, they will not be able to sell it. However, if too many people know that a large block of stack is hanging over the market, speculators will push the price down. The Goldman brokers thus must be selective when approaching potential buyers.</i><p>The motivating example Lewis gives in his book is of a trader at a large investment bank who, based on their $2MM&#x2F;year salary, is presumably being paid handsomely for the service of figuring out how to move blocks like that without having the market shift out from under them. In Harris&#x27; example, the Goldman traders research other owners of Smithsonian Industries and approaches them privately and individually in the hopes of placing much of the block privately at a small discount. In Lewis&#x27; example, the handsomely-paid trader sees a spot price in their blotter screen, expects to push a single button (no, really, that&#x27;s how Lewis frames it) to sell at that price, and is outraged when the price moves.<p>There&#x27;s an interesting debate to be had about HFT and, particularly, the conflicts of interest between broker-dealers and exchanges and dark pools. But it&#x27;s hard to have that discussion if you start from the belief that institutional trading is supposed to be easy. The opposite is true.
PaulHouleabout 11 years ago
I think people forget how much front running happened in the bad old days on the stock market floor, how the NYSE organized a cartel that kept trading prices high, and that the bid&#x2F;ask spread is usually a lot less than it used to be.<p>One thing people don&#x27;t say much about HFT is that the HFT practitioners got the exchanges to add undocumented order types that let them, in some cases, take advantage of people who do limit orders as the author of this post describes. The best description of this is at<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/The-Problem-HFT-Collected-Frequency/dp/1481978357" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;The-Problem-HFT-Collected-Frequency&#x2F;dp...</a><p>Often when I trade stocks I like to set a limit order at a price that might be a percent or so better than the market rate. Since the price fluctuates, odds are pretty good that I&#x27;ll get my fill. Now if it is just the normal Brownian motion, it&#x27;s a good thing that I get my fill, but if the stock is getting hammered by an external event that is driving it way down I might have hit the limit for the wrong reason and be unhappy I got the fill. In situations like that, HFT traders have an advantage with their special order types.<p>I think the normal retail investor who buys and holds for a while is not hurt terribly by HFT and flash crashes(unless the market is depressed because of the fear of HFT) but you can definitely get burned if you use stop orders. If a price goes down quickly, that can trigger your stop order, causing you to sell at a bad time.
kasey_junkabout 11 years ago
As usual Chris does a good job of explaining in simple terms how the markets actually work. The one thing I would have liked to see in this article is a discussion of the pro&#x27;s and con&#x27;s of paying for liquidity vs execution risk.<p>From my perspective it is almost always better to have sooner execution with a liquidity tax than an order floating in the market but I&#x27;m not sure how to quantify that as a retail stock purchaser.
logfromblammoabout 11 years ago
I am not a finance expert. What would happen if you traded stocks using a continual series of discrete uniform price auctions?<p>Each buyer enters a sealed bid consisting of the amount he wishes to buy, and at what price. Each seller enters a sealed offer consisting of the amount he wishes to sell, and at what price.<p>When the auction interval ends, the secure settlement system orders the bids and offers, and calculates the common settlement price such that every bid higher than that price can be satisfied with the offers lower than that price. Every unit in the auction is traded at that one price. Unsatisfied bids and offers could be set up to roll over to subsequent intervals, or to expire.<p>The settlement system takes a fee from all trades, as a fraction of the amount a buyer was willing to pay, but didn&#x27;t need to, and a fraction of the amount a seller got in excess of what he wanted. The marginal buyer and seller, who were not pleasantly surprised by the interval&#x27;s settlement price, pay nothing.<p>There is no opportunity for front running. If you bid lower than a major institution, your orders will be filled after the institution&#x27;s orders. You can&#x27;t re-sell to it at a higher price because it already has what it wants. Trading speed is irrelevant. All that matters is that your orders are in before the settlement interval closes, which happens on a human scale.<p>Why would such a system be unsuitable for our modern finance system?
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krastanovabout 11 years ago
Isn&#x27;t the entire point, that the anti-HFT folks are trying to make, that if HFT is abolished then we will still have liquidity? As in &quot;Liquidity is not created by HFT. HFT are just an intermediary between the actual providers of liquidity and the rest of the market&quot;.<p>This is a sincere question, because I really do not understand how HFT &quot;creates liquidity&quot; when they are just buying low and selling high.
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liricooliabout 11 years ago
For anyone interested in more information, I׳d recommend reading the comments in these two threads [0,1] from Marginal Revolution blog. Two HFT traders wrote thoroughly about HFT. I׳ve never read such an interesting and broad online discussion about HFT. I actually spent most of yesterday׳s afternoon reading these threads.<p>[0] <a href="http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/04/matt-levine-on-michael-lewis-and-hft.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;marginalrevolution.com&#x2F;marginalrevolution&#x2F;2014&#x2F;04&#x2F;mat...</a> [1] <a href="http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/03/new-michael-lewis-book-on-finance-and-high-frequency-trading.html#comments" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;marginalrevolution.com&#x2F;marginalrevolution&#x2F;2014&#x2F;03&#x2F;new...</a>
gopher1about 11 years ago
If you&#x27;re not a pension fund or other large investor, HFT&#x27;s don&#x27;t care about your orders.
fskabout 11 years ago
The premise of the post is false. If a large limit order is resting on the books, that&#x27;s an implied option for the HFTs.<p>If you place a large bid at $10.00, the HFTs will buy at $10.01. If the market starts going down, they sell to you before the price crashes more. If the price goes up, you never got your fill.<p>Limit orders don&#x27;t protect from HFTs exploiting you. What happens is you either don&#x27;t get filled (price drops to $10.01 and goes back up), or the price drops to $9.99 or less.
rbcabout 11 years ago
I personally use limit orders. I think there is an important distinction in deciding how much will be paid for a security. It makes you think about what the security is actually worth, separate from what the market order book is saying about the security at any particular time.
dbrowerabout 11 years ago
Can someone explain why any of these is a bad idea? (a) completed transaction tax; (b) regulatory fee on offers&#x2F;cancellations; (c) insertion of random delays into offers&#x2F;cancellations;<p>All could increase friction and reduce the speculative&#x2F;arbitrage opportunities, while having little effect on those wanting to trade to hold for periods exceeding seconds.<p>There is a belief that the churn of HFTs&#x2F;Arbs is enhancing liquidity for &quot;real&quot; investors. There ought to be reasonable questions what amount of churn is useful, adequate, and whether some frothy levels should be constrained in some way.<p>Is there any way to decide when things are excessivly liquid, in ways that lead to undesirable effects?
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hawkharrisabout 11 years ago
I just started learning about high frequency trading. I was interested to learn about some of the lore surrounding the field. While digital algorithms are relatively new, trading algorithms, in a conceptual sense, have existed for at least hundreds of years. I don&#x27;t usually throw around links to my own content, but I think this is relevant: <a href="http://codyromano.com/using-pigeons-as-algorithms/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;codyromano.com&#x2F;using-pigeons-as-algorithms&#x2F;</a>
001skyabout 11 years ago
Author would benefit from a closer reading of the M. Lewis piece. It&#x27;s well researched far from trivial. What&#x27;s interesting about it is that it tells the story of how outsiders modeled the various ways to rip off &lt;institutional&gt; traders. They did this first and the empirically pattern-matched observed behaviour. They then did both physical and social market-micro-structure studies.<p>Lets take a look at this section (From attached article):<p><i>The fact of the matter is that HFT’s can’t rip you off. You are never under any obligation to do business with them. In spite of that, lots of sophisticated investors voluntarily pay HFTs every day. An important question for all the critics of HFT to grapple with is, “why do sophisticated investors voluntarily pay for something useless?”</i><p>This comes right after the section on why people don&#x27;t adopt obvious strategies (use limit orders, etc):<p><i>Why doesn’t everyone do this?<p>This is an obvious question to ask. The answer is, quite simply, execution risk. Execution risk is the risk that you place an order but your trade never actually happens.</i><p>The Analysis Lewis outlines in his book shows that HFT is specificially engineered &lt;to create execution risk&gt;. It engineers artificial scarcity (the opposite of liquidity). Empirical study from Lewis&#x27;s book:<p><i>Finally [The Trader] complained so loudly that they sent the developers, the guys who came to RBC in the Carlin acquisition. “They told me it was because I was in New York and the markets were in New Jersey and my market data was slow,” Katsuyama says. “Then they said that it was all caused by the fact that there are thousands of people trading in the market. They’d say: ‘You aren’t the only one trying to do what you’re trying to do. There’s other events. There’s news.’ ” &lt;If that was the case, he asked them, why did the market in any given stock dry up only when he was trying to trade in it?&gt; [emphasis added] To make his point, he asked the developers to stand behind him and watch while he traded. “I’d say: ‘Watch closely. I am about to buy 100,000 shares of AMD. I am willing to pay $15 a share. There are currently 100,000 shares of AMD being offered at $15 a share — 10,000 on BATS, 35,000 on the New York Stock Exchange, 30,000 on Nasdaq and 25,000 on Direct Edge.’ You could see it all on the screens. We’d all sit there and stare at the screen, and I’d have my finger over the Enter button. I’d count out loud to five. . . . “ ‘One. . . . “ ‘Two. . . . See, nothing’s happened. “ ‘Three. . . . Offers are still there at 15. . . . “ ‘Four. . . . Still no movement. . . . “ ‘Five.’ Then I’d hit the Enter button, and — boom! — all hell would break loose. The offerings would all disappear, and the stock would pop higher.”</i><p>This is why it&#x27;s being investigated by the FBI, in addition the other issues (front running, NPI, etc).<p><i>&quot;There are many people in government who are very focused on this and who are concerned about it and who think it breaks the law,&quot; an FBI spokesman said. &quot;There is a big concern that high-frequency traders are getting material nonpublic information ahead of others and trading on it.&quot;</i>
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Sniperfishabout 11 years ago
Nanex explains this stuff better than I will so I&#x27;m just going to link to their research (tl;dr summary of [1] below). I will accept not all HFT participants are obligated to follow any or all of these behaviours, but they are argued in defence of all HFT activity which is patently not true.<p>1. They Provide liquidity, false. Or at least works on a definition of liquidity that is not what would generally be used by other market participants (institutional or retail) - specifically see pinging or using orders to determine interest [2]<p>2. Tighten spreads, false. Attributable in the largest part to reg NMS not directly to HFT. Spread volatility has increased.<p>3. Lower costs, false. Cheap trading available via discount brokers before HFTs and additional costs to other market participants operating in HFT innundated environments are ignored.<p>4. Studies showing positive of HFT cherry pick and are of inconsequential detail, no conclusions should be drawn without deeper analysis of the data<p>5. Nannex guys just have an axe to grind repudiation<p>Plus ignores any other negative side effects of super-high speed trading such as stock specific flash crashes, data overload, and locked &#x2F; crossed markets. Appreciate some of those can also be attributed to the proliferation of protected markets post Reg NMS.<p>[1] <a href="http://www.nanex.net/aqck2/4594.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nanex.net&#x2F;aqck2&#x2F;4594.html</a> [2] <a href="http://www.nanex.net/aqck2/4592.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nanex.net&#x2F;aqck2&#x2F;4592.html</a> (appearing to violate SEA 9.a.1.A)
Mikeb85about 11 years ago
Dunno, I for one value the service HFTs provide. They&#x27;re the reason that I, as a small investor, can unload 50,000 dollars worth of shares in a couple seconds.<p>Have you ever traded a stock market with low liquidity? You can have a market sell order sitting all day... I&#x27;d rather pay the small HFT toll, I still make plenty anyhow.
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panzaglabout 11 years ago
There is a lot of &#x27;unless you&#x27;re selling 100000 shares in a hurry you shouldn&#x27;t care&#x27;, but if an HFT &#x27;rips off&#x27; a pension fund I very much do care- even if I&#x27;m not personally affected I&#x27;m sure the added cost will be passed on to the state somehow.
whymeabout 11 years ago
It&#x27;s sad that I as a retail investor need to spend my valuable time focusing on how not to get screwed by the exchanges that have introduced a side business which does not serve the functioning of the market and instead corrupts it.
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mericabout 11 years ago
You still lose with Limit Orders. Here is how. I also propose how to actually not get ripped off.<p>The bid price is $100, the offer price is $101.<p>You want to buy, but you don&#x27;t want to cross the spread.<p>You&#x27;re worried the $101 isn&#x27;t actually there - i.e. if you place an order to buy for $102, either the $101 order will get pulled by the HFT trader, or the HFT trader will buy the $101 order and sell it to you at $102.<p>The article suggests placing a limit order without crossing the spread. i.e. Put a limit order at $100.<p>So you put the limit order at $100. It sits there, and doesn&#x27;t move.<p>10 minutes later, another company in the same industry announces below expected results due to market conditions. As this company is in the same industry, its stock price is negatively affected.<p>Before you have time to cancel your $100 limit order, the HFT trader has already parsed the negative news and short sold the stock all the way down to $99.5, taking your order with it, you&#x27;re recorded to have sold at $100.<p>You lose either way.<p>The continuous limit order market is where HFT has a lot more edge than you do. You can try to avoid placing market orders that cross the spread, as well as avoid placing limit orders that linger for too long and get taken advantage of.<p>There&#x27;s a call auction in the morning before the stock market opens every day. No market orders are allowed. Everyone places limit orders and everyone executes at one price. There is no spread to cross. As long as enough other investors participate in the same call auction, it&#x27;ll be a lot more difficult for HFT traders to take advantage of your order. (Frequency doesn&#x27;t even come into play since call auctions are discrete markets, not continuous - there is only 1 open price. This negates the HFT trader&#x27;s speed advantage, since speed is rendered irrelevant)<p>Just regurgitating stuff I&#x27;ve learnt with finance at university.
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