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Apache Wave

397 pointsby ConceitedCodeabout 11 years ago

20 comments

StefanKarpinskiabout 11 years ago
The crucial tactical error the Wave project made was not integrating with existing systems like email and chat. This forced people to either jump fully onboard with Wave or ignore it. Predictably, when faced with an ultimatum like that, everyone just kept using email (and IRC and wikis). If the Wave team had instead spent a fraction of their development efforts on seamless integration with email, IRC, and other relevant protocols, even at the cost of some simplification of Wave itself, the project might very well have been a success and more advanced features could have been added later once adoption picked up.
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shadowmintabout 11 years ago
The current Apache Wave code base is a vast complex tangle (GWT wasn&#x27;t the right decision, I doubt web sockets was either), and there&#x27;s virtually no life on the developer list.<p>To be in any way seriously useful, this should be reimplemented as from scratch with a strict separation of UI and wave server back end, with a <i>massively</i> simplified deployment process. (Go would be a good choice imho).<p>The ideas behind wave are interesting, but the technical debt that Google dumped out when they abandoned wave is so massive, I consider the current wave code base a completely lost cause.<p>Seriously; interested developers drop into the mailing list form time to time; look at the code base, then run screaming. The reports barely even get done.
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gyaresuabout 11 years ago
In terms of a modern day &#x27;Wave&#x27; I don&#x27;t understand why I had to find out about Slack <a href="https://slack.com/" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slack.com&#x2F;</a> from a Quartz article: <a href="http://qz.com/192948/slack-the-best-way-to-organize-your-business-communications-is-not-to-organize-them-at-all/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;qz.com&#x2F;192948&#x2F;slack-the-best-way-to-organize-your-bus...</a>
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bokchoiabout 11 years ago
Any particular reason why this was posted today? It seems to have been incubating at Apache since 2010. Is there a roadmap?<p><a href="http://incubator.apache.org/projects/wave.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;incubator.apache.org&#x2F;projects&#x2F;wave.html</a>
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jdp23about 11 years ago
Back in 2009&#x2F;10, we ran our startup primarily on Wave for several months. Several of us found it very useful; I thought it was a promising combination of email, Google Docs, and chat. On the other hand, the usability was horrible and it was ridiculously buggy; several people hated it with a passion.<p>I can see why Google gave up on it but it&#x27;s disappointing that they haven&#x27;t incorporated these ideas into other products. And it doesn&#x27;t seem like Apache Wave ever gained enough momentum to move forward.<p>What other projects are looking at similar chat&#x2F;email&#x2F;collaborative editing hybrids?
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vertex-fourabout 11 years ago
My opinion of where Wave went wrong is that it was completely non-extensible past a couple of fairly limited extension points. You couldn&#x27;t build brand new real-time applications on top of Wave.<p>What they should&#x27;ve done was simply expose their real-time technology stack, then let people create documents backed by whatever (sandboxed) Javascript they want. When you open a wave, the Wave client would download the relevant Javascript, then use <i>that</i> to generate the user interface for the document, while managing the complexities of operational transforms and federation itself.
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DomBlackabout 11 years ago
I used Wave quite a lot, it was great to arranging meet ups of groups of people as you could all have an active conversation and use the &quot;Poll&quot; widget to say if you where coming or not.<p>I also used it for other things, but organising groups of people was the main use. Once it was discontinued I tried to run the open source version, but it was never really that stable and in the end we swapped back to emails.<p>It&#x27;s a great shame to see this dead
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baneabout 11 years ago
I used Wave on a number of projects as well as some of the biggerish discussion &quot;waves&quot; back when it was still with Google.<p>For the projects, it was <i>awesome</i>. This was a long time ago, so I don&#x27;t remember all the excruciating details, but it made coordination and collaboration on big documents pretty trivial. We also had some group messaging and file-storage accounts that went virtually unused because of Wave.<p>Our use-case was in writing large-ish documents (a few hundred pages each) as a committee. And it was pretty trivial to just create a wave for each section of each document, then use top level comments in the Wave for each subsection, and capture everybody&#x27;s brainstorming for each section. It was like a living collaborative outline that eventually filled itself in and turned into a section. We used links off of the discussions into Google docs for collaborative editing of the documents and when we felt everything was good, somebody would simply go in and copy-paste all the text into master good doc for final cleanup.<p>Having worked on similar projects in the past, coordinating this kind of activity with email and word docs (or even google docs) is a huge PIA. When we decided to move it to Wave for a small trial (to figure out the workflow) it was pretty trivial and sort of worked naturally. There was a minimum of document syncing issues, or confusion about who said what in which meeting or email. The entire past history of discussion, with threading and everything was open for review. It was <i>amazing</i> despite many of the obvious issues with the Wave client.<p>The big discussion &quot;groups&quot; on the other hand were mess. It was impossible to find where new comments in old threads were posted, and once the conversations got big enough, the UI slowed to an unusable mess. Wave didn&#x27;t last long enough for anybody to figure out how to deal with this.<p>Outside of those two use-cases I really didn&#x27;t use Wave for much else. I suspect I would have found other uses as time went on if it had survived (and especially if it had flowered and federated).<p>I&#x27;ve thought long and hard about why Wave failed and it really does come down to 2 things:<p>- lack of focus<p>- poor user experience that never seemed to get any better<p>Wave tried really hard to be all things to everybody, with some really neat tech demos to show use cases (arranging a group meeting by embedding a poll and a map etc.). I think it was kind of like the C++ of communication mediums. It&#x27;s sort of everything, but you can only realistically use some subset of the functionality in practice and the parts you don&#x27;t use just end up seeming useless and weird.<p>On the user side, carving out just the functionality for your use-case was also hard. And the slow as syrup client really was a huge turn-off. Weird, non-standard scroll bars everywhere (which never got fixed and never worked like anybody expected), nobody liked real-time global echo as they typed (brought about by a confusion of how IM actually worked in practice), and way too many half-baked widgets and bots and things.<p>I think Wave should have simply focused on a few simple use-cases, nailed and refined those, then grown all the other awesome ideas organically so the user-community could start to slot those into their workflows.<p>Wave might have worked better if it was launched simply as a threaded messageboard with real-time replies showing up in a post. Users would have also needed 1 more layer of organizational abstraction, a &quot;Wave container&quot; to carve out different groups of Waves. In my use-case above we really needed to have a container for each document, with each Wave for each major section. But in the most general case, a &quot;pg&quot; type person could have created a &quot;Hacker News&quot; container, and each submission and comment history would have been the individual Waves.<p>When Wave launched, everything was a wave and there was no way to organize them, so people ended up using top-level comments in the waves as the &quot;topic submissions&quot; and the Waves went on for thousands of comments across dozens of topics before they started to break. It just wasn&#x27;t a good organizational metaphor, but the system and the client didn&#x27;t offer a good alternative.<p>Then the client was clunky and slow, nothing else on the web felt as slow even with such little graphical sparkle. It was basically a side-by-side email client by look, yet acted like it was folding proteins or mining bitcoin in some worker thread.
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ecspikeabout 11 years ago
I created one of widgets that launched with Wave to use VOIP services to make a conference call from inside the gadget.<p>Part of me wished it stayed because I had a single letter user id.<p>Anyways, meeting minutes were something that it did well in my observation. Liveblogging was also interesting with it especially if you had maybe 2-3 editors and everyone else was view-only. Live tweeting events is rather feeble compared to what could have been done with Wave.
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kylemaxwellabout 11 years ago
I wish every day for this to finally become usable and deployable. A bit of GitHub integration and I have tons of places I&#x27;d get Wave going again.
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lawnchair_larryabout 11 years ago
I don&#x27;t understand this submission. There&#x27;s no news here, it&#x27;s an &quot;about&quot; page from 2010. What am I missing?
harveyleeabout 11 years ago
I remember when Google Wave was hyped up to the point where people were begging others for a beta invite. When I first got access, it seemed pretty interesting but oddly enough, nothing really motivated me to use it again.
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tomphooleryabout 11 years ago
&gt; Allthough Googles own server was never released as Open Source itself, they did release “FedOne” as a reference implementation of it. It was open source, and allowed people to both run and federate their own wave servers together. It did not connect to Googles main “wave.google.com” server, but did connect to a special “sandbox” server allowing testing of the protocol, server and clients.<p>What idiot greenlighted that feature? :P<p>&quot;Yeah let&#x27;s make a distributed social network but don&#x27;t let them connect to the one EVERYONE IS ALREADY ON&quot;
pearjuiceabout 11 years ago
I remember back in the day people would kill for a Google Wave invite. It felt like all the cool kids were using it and if you weren&#x27;t on it, you meant zero. When you actually got on it after reading all the praising reviews and begging for invites on googlewaveinvites.org or whatever shady site you stumbled upon, it was a massive anti climax. Sure, it looked really good but it felt so... I don&#x27;t know... void?<p>I think we all just wanted to be part of the &quot;Google Wave croud&quot; and the hype was more of a focus than the actual product. Thinking about it, I don&#x27;t even remember what Wave <i>actually</i> was or why Google dismissed it.
jlebarabout 11 years ago
&gt; Wave a real-time communication and collaboration tool.<p>Serious question: Am I a bad person for closing the tab as soon as I noticed that the first sentence is missing a verb?<p>Programming is all about details, and I guess I see it as a strong signal if a project can&#x27;t get details right on their landing page.<p>On the other hand, maybe this unfairly biases me against projects maintained by non-native English speakers. And even among native speakers, perhaps I shouldn&#x27;t be biased against people who choose to spend their time on pursuits other than writing perfect English.
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jo_about 11 years ago
Strangely, every one of the links in the downloads page has 404&#x27;d for me. I was quite disappointed to see Wave die, since I think it was both incredibly forward looking on Google&#x27;s part and, all things considered, immensely useful. I wish it could have become the email replacement it wanted to be. It suffered greatly, though, from higher latency, intermittent bugs, and lack of (very) widespread adoption.
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mark_l_watsonabout 11 years ago
I liked Google Wave, and really liked being able to write software robots on AppEngine that joined waves like humans, and could read and write to waves. Potentially a nice platform to develop for, until Google Wave was cancelled.<p>I have run Apache Waves a few times, easy to set up and the simplified UI is very nice.<p>What I am missing from Apache Wave is a platform for writing software robots. Does anyone know of any useful options for this?
Zenstabout 11 years ago
I always wondered why Wave was not intergrested with Usenet as could of brought usenet into the modern World interface&#x2F;interaction wise. Beyond that it reminded me of many Web 2.0 Nortel project, great technicaly but pushing the resource boundaries of the time. Hence had its sluggish moments, as in on a fat pipe was great, but consumer pipes was meh.<p>Still, it moves on.
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oztenabout 11 years ago
At Mindcamp in 2009 we had a session to try to figure out how&#x2F;why to use Wave. We tried to use Wave to facilitate said conversation. In my opinion, it was a wash.<p>Wave had amazing technology and perhaps a &quot;before it&#x27;s time&quot; communication model, but it needed a better narrative or training step.
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0xdeadbeefbabeabout 11 years ago
Wouldn&#x27;t you prefer this for a forum instead of phpBB?
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