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Virtual reality affects men and women differently

137 pointsby killwhiteyabout 11 years ago

23 comments

GuiAabout 11 years ago
An advisor for a startup where I used to work at worked heavily with VR systems in the 80s&#x2F;90s. I was having coffee with her a year or so ago, when I had just received my devkit, and she was up in arms about how terrible motion sickness was on the Rift.<p>&quot;I was telling companies back then that their VR tech was doomed from the start because of nausea, and it hasn&#x27;t changed at all!&quot;<p>This is a good tale of why having a more balanced gender ratio in the tech industry is important. If 90% of Oculus designers&#x2F;prototypers&#x2F;engineers are male, female voices will naturally get drowned. The problem is that if your audience is potentially &quot;all humans&quot;, the ratio is 50&#x2F;50. (although here, it seems like a) there exists prior research in the literature and b) good user testing could highlight that problem. If you&#x27;re aspiring to doing any form of quality R&amp;D, being on top of those 2 things should be a priority)<p>As for the title, I initially disliked it, but as I read the article I changed my opinion - I find it perfectly correct and just the right dose of irreverentious. The way I interpret it is as follows: it would be correct to label a poison which systematically kills any man who drinks it but not women as &quot;sexist&quot;. The problem is that our culture tends to bundle intent with sexism, which is not the case - whether a process is sexist or not is completely independent from intent, or even whether there is a sentient agent behind it.
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dangabout 11 years ago
This was flagged by users. On the other hand, the article is clearly substantive. As an experiment, I&#x27;m going to provisionally turn off the flags. The thread hasn&#x27;t degenerated into a flamewar so far; let&#x27;s see if we can keep it that way.<p>All: please take extra care to make your comments high in substance and civility, and as low as possible in flammability.
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aaronemabout 11 years ago
[Preface: dang, thanks for overriding the flags on this HN posting. The discussion thus far seems to be mostly worthwhile, unless it&#x27;s gone to hell in the twenty minutes or so I&#x27;ve just spent writing this comment, and I&#x27;m glad to see it taking place here.]<p>boyd&#x27;s baccalaureate thesis, of which her blog post appears to be a recapitulation for a general audience, dates from 2000 and spends considerable effort talking about how, for example, the lack of normal maps results in a lack of shape-from-shading cues, which makes it difficult for a visual system prioritizing those cues over parallax cues to develop a 3-space representation of a scene.<p>And that&#x27;s fair enough! <i>For 2000.</i> Now, though, a decade and a half later, normal maps are ubiquitous in current-gen and next-gen 3D graphics; while it&#x27;s more computationally expensive to render with them than without them, the Rift&#x27;s resolution is only 1280x800 overall, and even with the added overhead of parallax calculation, that&#x27;s still easily within the capabilities of a modern GPU.<p>This is the sort of thing one might expect to be addressed in boyd&#x27;s discussion of her earlier research. That said, having once read the thesis and then gone back to review the blog post, it&#x27;s quite plainly a simple restatement of circa-2000 conclusions, and bears no trace of having been updated in light of the enormous advances in graphical rendering technology which have taken place between then and now.<p>I don&#x27;t know whether there is any evidence of women having trouble with Rift-induced simulator sickness at higher rates than men. Going by boyd&#x27;s blog post, I <i>can&#x27;t</i> know, because she doesn&#x27;t bother to mention whether there is or there isn&#x27;t; she just rehashes her earlier research and hangs &quot;Oculus&quot; and &quot;sexist&quot; off it as search keywords.<p>This would be disappointing in general from someone reputed as highly as danah boyd; much worse, though, it hamstrings her entire point! Her basic thesis, in this blog post, is &quot;This is a discussion we need to be having.&quot; But there&#x27;s no knowing whether that&#x27;s true, because in comparison with modern rendering technology, the research on which she bases that statement is hopelessly outdated, and she presents no evidence to suggest that people who rely on shading cues have the same problems with today&#x27;s VR technology as with that of fifteen years ago.
sliverstormabout 11 years ago
<i>All too often, systems get shipped with discriminatory byproducts and people throw their hands in the air and say, “oops, we didn’t intend that.”</i><p>Is it just me, or is this kind of OK?<p>Intentional discrimination isn&#x27;t, of course. But if your initial release accidentally isn&#x27;t accessible to people with blue-yellow colorblindness, is that a tragedy of social justice?<p>No product serves every person equally, and this is especially true early in the product&#x27;s (or company&#x27;s) lifetime. You&#x27;re a little too busy tackling the core problem to have time for fixing every accessibility problem in rev A.<p>Which seems OK to me. Rev A&#x27;s are by nature lacking &amp; incomplete, and I would rather they get something out the door, make a profit, and decide to make a rev B- than miss the boat and&#x2F;or go bankrupt trying to make the product equally accessible all from day 1.<p>There are plenty of products like that, that I have been unable to enjoy in their early stages, so it isn&#x27;t like getting the short end of the stick has never happened to me. One of my favorite outdoor gear companies, for example, has started making technical clothing. They don&#x27;t offer sizes that fit tall, slender me, so I&#x27;m pretty much hosed for now. But that&#x27;s fine. They&#x27;ll get to it eventually.<p>(Obviously in this particular case wrt. Oculus Rift &amp; women, the point has now been raised and women are half the globe, so it would seem to be a high priority to address. I&#x27;m just addressing the quoted statement, which was much more general)
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aamarabout 11 years ago
This article&#x27;s definitions of &quot;motion parallax&quot; and &quot;shape from shading&quot; are quite different from my understanding. Can anyone shed any light on this? Specifically:<p><i>&quot;Motion parallax has to do with the apparent size of an object. If you put a soda can in front of you and then move it closer, it will get bigger in your visual field. Your brain assumes that the can didn’t suddenly grow and concludes that it’s just got closer to you.&quot;</i><p>Whereas I believed &quot;motion parallax&quot; to be moving one&#x27;s head so as to compare an object&#x27;s displacement against a more distant background. Size is irrelevant.<p><i>&quot;Shape-from-shading is a bit trickier. If you stare at a point on an object in front of you and then move your head around, you’ll notice that the shading of that point changes ever so slightly depending on the lighting around you. The funny thing is that your eyes actually flicker constantly, recalculating the tiny differences in shading, and your brain uses that information to judge how far away the object is.&quot;</i><p>&quot;Shape from shading&quot; I believed to be simply recreating a 3d structure from the way light falls on it, a depth cue that occurs even without motion. The quoted description seems like it is referring to specularity, which does play a role in shape from shading, but also seems well handled by (many) rendering engines.
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shadowmintabout 11 years ago
It&#x27;s a microscopic sample size, but with the OR developer kit I got to play with, probably half women I know who tried it felt motion sick; the proportion was much much lower for men (maybe 1&#x2F;10).<p>At the time I simply put it down to the guys having played more FPS games and being more accustomed to it, but its interesting to read this.<p>On the other hand, with the precise head tracking in OR, I wonder if a higher-resolution with a better lighting model would make this issue go away?<p>It&#x27;s basically just tiny head movements, right? As you move you see minor shading differences in the scene, and use that to mentally reconstruct the 3D geometry (as I understand it from the article).<p>You&#x27;d think high precision head tracking with a sufficiently high frame rate would be able to catch that.<p>(however, the low res &#x2F; poorly lit OR demos probably don&#x27;t)
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ender7about 11 years ago
Ugh, I wish we didn&#x27;t need such a rage-baiting title to talk about this. I&#x27;m not a huge fan of danah&#x27;s methods [1], but then againit&#x27;s hard to argue with her results.<p>danah is right that her findings are not at all conclusive. I&#x27;m somewhat doubtful that the root cause is what she suggests, but the problem itself seems to be very real. I&#x27;m quite excited to see if we can find a solution, as it may have broader-reaching effects. Could this allow people who get motion sick even from 2D presentations to enjoy them sickness-free?<p>[1] Labeling a company and its engineers as sexist for not being aware of certain, extremely obscure research is unfair to say the least. But, you know, institutional and implicit biases in subconscious power structures etc. etc.
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devindotcomabout 11 years ago
Hmm. I&#x27;m at a loss to explain how hormones, in the retina of all places, would affect perceptual cues that have been built up over years and years of use and are in many ways hard coded into the many layers and blobs (yes, &quot;blobs&quot;) of visual cortex. I certainly can&#x27;t rule it out, but it seems an unlikely mechanism for me. The neural networks governing vision are a very powerful combination of nature (some blobs fire only when there are edges of a certain orientation, for instance) and nurture (motion parallax ties in closely with a physical understanding of distance, proprioception, etc). The differences have to be deeper, if you ask me. Men and women&#x27;s brains are indeed different, in ways we don&#x27;t fully understand (this is an understatement), but there&#x27;s a lot of evidence that men have, if you will, a spaciality speciality.<p>I wonder if there&#x27;s a whole proprioceptive feedback center that helps tally your visual input with your movements, that&#x27;s fed by androgens or otherwise activated by male-dominated chemicals and structures.<p>However I&#x27;m also curious about controls for things like playing lots of games when younger — we&#x27;re only just now starting to see female gamers approach males in proportion, and I&#x27;m not confident that near-equality is as near when you look at 5, 10, 15 year olds. Especially games like FPSes with lots of 3D movement and rectifying of a virtual space with the real one. Having grown up with the motion of gaming, I think I&#x27;m less susceptible to VR sickness. I don&#x27;t have any data on this, of course, but I would be very interested to see some.
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vilhelm_sabout 11 years ago
I don&#x27;t understand what &quot;[computers can&#x27;t] simulate how that tiny, constant flickering of your eyes affects the shading you perceive&quot; refers to. How can flicking your eyes affect the shading of objects?<p>In the linked paper[1], the shape-from-shading cue was just a static greyscale gradient, with no eye-flicking. This seems like something that standard computer graphics techniques can emulate easily.<p>Since the study was done in 1997, I could imagine that the environments they were working with still contained lots of flat polygons. But the modern Oculus-rift runs things like Doom III, where everything is smoothly shaded. So to me it would seem that while the CAVE might have been &quot;sexist&quot;, the Oculus isn&#x27;t anymore? (Of course, there are lots of other depth cues than shading and parallax, and there could be sex differences about how those are prioritized also, but the cited experiment did not study them.)<p>[1] <a href="http://www.danah.org/papers/sexvision.pdf?_ga=1.245737348.1002921219.1392507889" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.danah.org&#x2F;papers&#x2F;sexvision.pdf?_ga=1.245737348.10...</a>
dangabout 11 years ago
The title is linkbait, which is against the guidelines, but I can&#x27;t think of a better one. If any of you suggest one that&#x27;s accurate and neutral, I&#x27;ll change it.
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Oculusabout 11 years ago
The title of the blog&#x2F;article almost ruined the whole point trying to be made.<p>I read the entire article waiting for justification of a clearly provocative title. I got to the end, felt Danah Boyd didn&#x27;t justify the title and felt the blog&#x2F;article was weak. Only when I took a step away and thought about the it did I realize the reason I had such a bad taste in my mouth - it was the title. The article itself brings up a good point and one that should be explored by Oculus and others doing VR. I don&#x27;t think anyone expected that men and women would react different to VR or the techniques we use to render VR worlds.
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argumentumabout 11 years ago
Is Nature sexist? To maintain a consistent argument, the author would have to answer yes.<p>Nature is many things, but fair is not one of them.
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doktrinabout 11 years ago
&gt; <i>Motion parallax has to do with the apparent size of an object. If you put a soda can in front of you and then move it closer, it will get bigger in your visual field. Your brain assumes that the can didn’t suddenly grow and concludes that it’s just got closer to you.</i><p>&gt; <i>Shape-from-shading is a bit trickier. If you stare at a point on an object in front of you and then move your head around, you’ll notice that the shading of that point changes ever so slightly depending on the lighting around you. The funny thing is that your eyes actually flicker constantly, recalculating the tiny differences in shading, and your brain uses that information to judge how far away the object is.</i><p>I need help understanding the mechanics here.<p>What exactly is the flicker described? What does it have to do with shading being recalculated? If hypothetically our eyes did not flicker, how would that affect our depth perception?<p>As a follow up - what would be involved in emulating this in a virtual system?
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peterhajasabout 11 years ago
This doesn&#x27;t sound like the Oculus is sexist, so much as that men are more predisposed to experience the 3D effect biologically. How is that sexist?
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Pxl_Buzzardabout 11 years ago
Reading this article I&#x27;m not convinced this is the fault of the Rift. Motion parallax happens naturally when a game engine uses two cameras to render a scene (the 3D effect). Shape-from-shading is dependent on the lighting system the engine uses, and because developers haven&#x27;t needed to program for VR they&#x27;ve never implemented it.<p>There are many changes in both game design and engine features that we&#x27;ll start to see as virtual reality becomes mainstream. It&#x27;s very likely we&#x27;ll see a stall in graphics improvements as game engine programmers begin to enhance other systems like physics and lighting to work more realistically.
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callesggabout 11 years ago
With her definition of sexist a bra, a urinal or anything that is only usable by one gender is sexist.<p>Interesting data, strange conclusion.
hcarvalhoalvesabout 11 years ago
&gt; Motion parallax has to do with the apparent size of an object. If you put a soda can in front of you and then move it closer, it will get bigger in your visual field. Your brain assumes that the can didn’t suddenly grow and concludes that it’s just got closer to you.<p>While parallax does play a part in perception of size and distance, we still perceive the size of objects without stereoscopy (that is, with one eye closed, or on a flat image). When shown an upclose photo of a can, people can figure out it didn&#x27;t just grew because 1) we have previous knowledge of the shape and size of a can and 2) it&#x27;s image gets distorted as it gets closer [1].<p>You can trick someone by making an object with an unfamiliar shape to look familiar when viewed with the right angle &#x2F; FOV [2]. Similarly, making miniatures appear realistically-sized in photos involves careful FOV control to not trigger the signals in our perception [3].<p>This is a mechanism that, I think, would be interesting to study w.r.t. gender differences, more than rotating 3D objects.<p>[1] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_distortion_(photography)" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Perspective_distortion_(photogr...</a><p>[2] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_perspective#Forced_perspective_in_architecture" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Forced_perspective#Forced_persp...</a><p>[3] <a href="http://petapixel.com/2013/10/14/life-like-miniature-scenes-shot-using-model-cars-forced-perspective-250-ps/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;petapixel.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;10&#x2F;14&#x2F;life-like-miniature-scenes-s...</a>
zemabout 11 years ago
lousy title, but fascinating piece of research. please do go back and read it if you skipped it due to the title.
pubbyabout 11 years ago
So would having separate male and female versions of the Oculus be considered more sexist or less sexist? No snark intended.
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dsugarmanabout 11 years ago
CAVEs make me nauseous too, I&#x27;m a dude and I used to help build them
jbcurtin2about 11 years ago
Being a man and an oculus tinkerer. How would I go about testing this?
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thefreemanabout 11 years ago
Pretty cool article &#x2F; research. I kind of wish the author hadn&#x27;t intentionally brought sexism into it because I think the research is interesting enough on its own and it just distracts from the actual information. She does address this a bit at the end though.
Yaa101about 11 years ago
The words Oculus Rift sound like a sexually transmitted disease, so who knows?