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The Fall of Hacker Groups

152 pointsby timgluzabout 11 years ago

22 comments

jaegerpickerabout 11 years ago
I've been following "the scene" for nearly 20 years now. It's not smaller or less influential, it's just different. It feels A LOT more dangerous now to be out there doing anything that might be construed as hacking. All of the crazy prosecutions, the "war on terror", and the NSA? Are you kidding? The stakes are way higher now. Sure there have always been dangers but not like now. It's no wonder that people are hiding from the surveillance state. I know this post has a tin foil hat feel but it just seems a lot harder to trust that other end of the wire now. Anon has had every bit as much influence on the wider world as any group I can remember.
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ilovecookiesabout 11 years ago
In my opinion it's too much "american" media and societys individualistic culture that has spread like a disease on the internet and kind of destroyed much of the original 90s internet culture. And thereby also the safehaven for the hacker people. The one place where many people felt at home has been stripped from them though this "capitalization" of the internet in my opinion. I loved playing around with the net before it got big. Remembering the times I played age of empires with random Chinese ppl and build websites with html where i uploaded my favorite games for people to download (had almost 1000 downloads at one of my sites!) or when I "hacked" games by alternating attributes in their config files and posted results on various forums... This was when the net was free and interesting today most of the landscape is dominated by commercials and Hollywood/media brainwashing.
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hadoukenioabout 11 years ago
Sadly this latest Phrack post reads as lucid as the methamphetamine inspired posts lately on cpunks.org. Phrack what happened man, you used to be cool.<p>The real reason that there is no more &quot;hacking scene&quot; is simply availability.<p>Back in the baud days, most BBS hacking was to get into well connected boards and from there get connected to the internet. As most people now virtually have always-on Internet, the value of stealing a connection has vanished.<p>Another example of availability killing a scene (well, almost dead) is the once-thriving phreaking scene. Groups were dedicated to discovering and sharing the latest info on how to get free phone calls. As the cost of a phone call got cheaper and cheaper, the value of free phone calls also vanished. Who likes jail time anyway? Take Skype for instance... Instant and virtually free international calls. Why would I bother diving into a pit in the cold when it&#x27;s totally legal AND free!<p>I would compare the various scenes to ham radio. It&#x27;s still a thing even though technology has replaced it multiple times over, but the hard cores will still be enthusiastic as ever.<p>Edit: The Phrack paper being &quot;released&quot; via the Full Disclosure list earlier today was a nice touch.
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georgemcbayabout 11 years ago
I was involved in this &quot;scene&quot; in the late 80s&#x2F;early 90s. If I were the same age I was then today, I doubt very much I&#x27;d have gone down the same route because of how much the world has changed.<p>Back then I was using a Commodore 64 hooked up to a tv with a modem (starting at 300 baud and moving up from there); hacking (in the phrack sense) and &quot;phreaking&quot; allowed me to access a much wider world of information and computer resources than I otherwise would have had. Access to &quot;real&quot; computers that can run C compilers! Access to instant communications with people around the world!<p>These days this sort of thing is no big deal; you can buy a veritable super computer for less than a hundred bucks and run a free OS on it with a full developer ecosystem, worldwide calling is essentially free, the modern Internet gives you access to more free information than anyone could possible consume. But back then, as a 12-18 year old (without parents who worked in CompSci academia or such) all of that was unattainable by legal means, thus the hacking.<p>The &quot;groups&quot; for me were a secondary thing and a means to share knowledge (again, prior to the web and easy access to ridiculous amounts of information) and they aren&#x27;t really needed anymore for my personal use case (though I&#x27;m not suggesting mine is the only use case, I know a lot of people who were certainly more into it for the social aspects, which still exist today).
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peterwwillisabout 11 years ago
This article is a perfect example of how Phrack died years ago. I&#x27;m pretty sure this was penned by a 16 year old as a homework assignment for english class. The rank wind of my farts produces more inspired thought than this ridiculously short, purposeless, rambling piece of pseudo-anarchistic crap.
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kylemaxwellabout 11 years ago
I don&#x27;t agree with the thesis here. As somebody whose day job involves tracking &quot;hacker groups&quot; in the adversarial sense and whose hobbies largely involve belonging to &quot;hacker groups&quot; in the doing-cool-shit sense, I feel like there&#x27;s an assertion with precisely no evidence to support it.<p>Also, statements like &quot;We live in days of limited creativity&quot; strike me as extreme nostalgia and conservatism. We live in days of INCREDIBLE creativity, in my view.
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MrQuincleabout 11 years ago
Perhaps it is a (nice) reflection on the fact that getting information is not the challenge anymore. The real challenge is interpreting it.<p>Perhaps the people that normally would be intellectually challenged by understanding routers, are now analyzing data on an extremely big scale.<p>Or perhaps not.
oracle2025about 11 years ago
Hm, what does it say about the Hacker News community that the topic of a replacement for &quot;Comic Sans&quot; attracts way more discussion than the issues rised in this quite interesting paper?<p>Seems to be a case of Parkinson&#x27;s law of triviality going on here.
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dannyrosenabout 11 years ago
Sitting in a small room, with 6 others, building the next big SaaS product felt very much like it did 15 years ago on EFnet
bsderabout 11 years ago
Completely misses the point. Hacker groups died because the information they had got distributed to the web.<p>Wind back the clock to 1984. How do you learn to program a Macintosh? Some small circulation magazines (books were <i>rare</i>--there is a reason O&#x27;Reilly became such a phenomenon), a local users group (if you were amazingly lucky and lived in SF, LA or San Diego), or a hacker group.<p>How would your learn it now? The web. You don&#x27;t need a hacker group. Or books. Or magazines.
clefabout 11 years ago
It&#x27;s gotta be one of the best things I&#x27;ve ever read.<p>&gt;Instead of reaching for the fellow man, we want to set ourselves apart, andthus, remarkable.<p>So true.<p>&gt;Modern life nearly conspires against the collective. We are tormented by a relentless flow of information as well as the daily worries of an eternally insecure, unwarranted life.<p>Amen to that!
Squarelabout 11 years ago
Has it just not moved east?<p>Hackers in the west, of any hat-shade, are jaded and cynical now, having been through 20+ years of watching (especially in the US) the responses change exponentially.<p>In the east, from Sudan, through the middle east, to India, you see a lot of the same behavior as was here in the 90s, which the older crowd in the USA or Europe have moved past, everything from being super psyched about being on Microsoft&#x2F;Googles security help lists, to having names with more numbers in than my model datasets.<p>The environment here has moved on, in some ways, become more business oriented, and &quot;professional&quot; whereas in the those countries, it is still all fresh and exciting and new, without the governmental and corporate behavior we have all come to know and love in the USA and to a lesser extent, Europe.
bachbackabout 11 years ago
isn&#x27;t if funny how PG bridges the gap between true hackerdom and pure commercialism&#x2F;capitalism? I too want to be a ruling VC &#x2F;ruling hacker when I grow up<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDA0t49AaZ4" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=BDA0t49AaZ4</a>
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_superposition_about 11 years ago
I myself feel ashamed that I have stopped reading phrack at all. Sure enough, I&#x27;ve forgotten about it in the race to &quot;keep up&quot; as described in the article. It is, in essence, the original Hacker News. Time to re-evaluate...
cyphunkabout 11 years ago
First, I found that there are some true gems in the article and feel it is worth reading. But here is my contribution to discussion through some criticism.<p><pre><code> In effect, hacking has arguably grown. Hacker communities, definitely not. So what went wrong? </code></pre> I assume an American wrote this and I am wondering if the above is not a mostly US American problem. Of course what is a problem for the US becomes a problem for everyone else eventually in one way or another but at the moment... EU hacker communities are more fluid and inclusive of youth and counter-political cultures. And more often than not the Tenured hackers stick around to work with and collaborate with the new and younger. Though they have plenty of problems I don&#x27;t think lack of growth is one of them. There are some more inclusive hacker spaces in the US but most of the tenured and serious US hackers went commercial and stayed that way.<p>In the US context I agree with all the statements. Much also applies to the entire community as a whole. But what is missing is this: the community is just getting old. It is now coming into contact with what happens to any new field of discovery or thought: tenure and structure. It&#x27;s a problem with memory in general. As it is created there becomes an assumption that one should reference it. This field has history now and those that come along will be forced to consider it just as someone who studies photography has to think about Atget. This requirement adds latency that naturally changes the makeup of the field.<p><pre><code> It is important to note that our capitalist worries are more deeply rooted in us than might seem at first, even in the most politically diverse people. Supporting oneself is not easy, it does not come for free. Getting some education, finding a job, staying up-to-date... regardless of what your aspirations are, whatever you feel obliged to do is probably a lot, already. And it likely involves a prevalence of &quot;minding your own business&quot;. </code></pre> Much of the article has to do with productivity issues. This is not unique to our field except that once upon a time the median age of the field was a teenager with lots of energy and time and now median age is older. It is true that the grind of day to day in societies like the US that hold capitalism as God makes it harder for one to have time for much else than survival. But 1. this isn&#x27;t the case everywhere yet. Just see some of the newer capitalistic societies in the EU that have not yet shed every part of socialist history just yet. (ahem, Berlin!). 2. One should also consider that we are just getting old. Want to solve these problems, be less freaking proud, more inclusive and bring in youth. It&#x27;s the same for every field. The article perhaps says the same thing but better:<p><pre><code> If our thoughts on creating hacker groups were to be summarised, this is how they would look: No one ever feels like we do. They are not to be trusted and we do not have the time for them. The only attitude consonant to our search for a comfortable, safe life is to constrain ourselves to our own limitations, ignore the intelligent life out there, and surrender to the mediocracy that our society has condemned our leisure time to. </code></pre> Side note: these problems <i>might</i> relate to the fields chauvinism problem. from my experience women are twice as likely to be inclusive in this field. there could be many reasons for this but it&#x27;s worth considering that the inclusive problem and lack of trust actually may be related to the male chauvinism issue.<p>Finally, that Anonymous and these types of communities will not have as much impact as l0pht, mod, lod, others... is <i></i>seriously debatable!<i></i><p><pre><code> This article discusses why recently we do not see many hacker groups anymore, and why the ones we do, such as Anonymous and its satellite efforts, do not succeed in having the same cultural impact as their forefathers. </code></pre> Most of the older groups such as l0pht spent their time saying XYZ company sucks because their developers missed a bug in a product. Whereas anonymous spends its time saying XYZ Gov&#x2F;Inc&#x2F;Policy sucks and we should riot. Which one do you think should have more impact?
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fredgrottabout 11 years ago
here I know most of you do not read German, but this is probably the best hacker community site:<p><a href="http://www.ccc.de/en/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ccc.de&#x2F;en&#x2F;</a><p>Much better than Phrack in my opiion
ballardabout 11 years ago
If I had a few million to spare, I&#x27;d support individual hackers and collectives as well. Because we need people that aren&#x27;t under the pressure to deliver something for profit.
Kototamaabout 11 years ago
Does the thesis hold? It seems to me there are more hackers labs than before. Also they don&#x27;t convey exactly the same spirit they are still from the same vein, no?
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drawkboxabout 11 years ago
I loved the early internet, IRC, newsgroups etc. The really old school phreakers even before that was also a different time. Back then you could do stuff like that and go on to start companies like Apple (Woz). Now, you&#x27;ll end up in a solitary confined cell or have to join the FBI&#x2F;NSA if you are caught.<p>Hacker groups aren&#x27;t as tied to freedom as it used to feel.
HipHopHackerabout 11 years ago
Why the elite hacker scene has pretty much disappeared is something I have thought about over the past decade as well. I know many people from the groups he mentioned in the beginning - mostly the American ones, but also some European, Australian etc. ones as well.<p>Ultimately success is what killed it off I&#x27;d say. I recognize some HN names as people who were actively, or at least peripherally involved in the scene, hanging out on EFnet&#x27;s +hack and then #hack etc. Many of these people went into dot-coms and startups from the mid-1990s on. Some sold their companies for billions of dollars, many got tens of millions of VC dollars, or stock options, or buyout dollars, or whatnot. As someone mentioned in the thread for this post, Mudge became a program manager at DARPA - some people went into the security field, and thrived.<p>Aside from the financial&#x2F;career success of the dot-com boom, the growth of the Internet helped kill it off as well. Prior to the Internet, a very technical working class kid would take his Commodore 64 hooked up to the family TV, plug it into his POTS phone line with his 300 (then 1200, then 2400...) baud modem, and call a Bulletin Board Service, which inevitably was a Commodore 64 or Apple ][ belonging to another technical teenager, whose class background might be slightly tonier as he often had a dedicated phone line in his room.<p>So what kind of social structures evolve when the kind of kids who gather on 4chan today get together on this network of Commodore 64&#x27;s that are fairly independent of everyone else? One thing is for sure, to take a page from this fellow&#x27;s essay, all of the rules and structures that make up American society with its class structures and relations, large international military and police force and so forth go out the window. If the kids want access to a Cray, they&#x27;re going to get access to a Cray. They don&#x27;t care if it&#x27;s used for some secret DoD research project, or some Goldman Sachs number crunching. These were the days when your local Bell switch might be on a dialup, when a tone-generating blue box could seize hold of the telephone company&#x27;s in-band signalling.<p>So some of this fits into what the essay writer says. We had our own communication network, a kind of 4chan&#x27;ish network of Commodores and Apple ][&#x27;s in teenage boys bedrooms across America. We controlled it. When the Internet came, we shifted to that, but our communication network became controlled by DARPA, then the NSF, then a variety of corporations, which were then whittled down to a handful - AT&amp;T, Verizon, Centurylink, Sprint, Comcast, Time-Warner and several more. The network became corporatized, firewalled, censored, monitored, spammed and spam-resisted etc. Under the threat of spam, attorney generals and corporate control tightening, Usenet effectively disappeared. The disappearance of Usenet is tied to the disappearance of the hacker scene. The same forces which killed Usenet are the forces which killed the scene. Understand why Usenet died and you understand why the scene died.<p>The carrot is what killed it, not the stick. In 1990 Operation Sundevil happened, the MoD guys were arrested etc. Repression didn&#x27;t really kill things, it just made people a little more careful. Maybe the arrested guys would quit, but everyone else just started buying early cell phones and such to hack outside their house.<p>The Internet killed it. It swallowed up the need for a network of BBS&#x27;s in boy&#x27;s bedrooms. It swallowed its own Usenet via monopolization, shady corporations doing spam, attorney generals and such. It also started a dot-com boom and then social boom and now mobile&#x2F;cloud boom. A teenage boy can publish a traction-getting app or website for next to nothing in a way that could never have happened back then. Some of the scene people from the 1980s and 1990s are very, very wealthy Tesla-owning retired founder dudes nowadays.
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phantombabout 11 years ago
I want to say that hacker groups haven’t declined, it’s just that now they don’t call themselves hacker groups, they call themselves startup companies.
arca_voragoabout 11 years ago
I don&#x27;t think this quite hits the nail on the head. Perhaps hacker communities haven&#x27;t grown, but I think the reasons given are a bit too abstract. In my opinion, there are two main factors at play here. One is that many of the late 90&#x27;s early 2000&#x27;s hackers went corporate for the $$, or worse, went government. I&#x27;ll never forget calling Mudge up and asking him how DARPA was treating him, and he was loving it simply because of all the cool things he was seeing.<p>For quite a while I think the hacker community was much more about hobby and IT professionals who were curious (sysadmins breaking out of the box), whereas now people just want to break into stuff and get paid big bucks (banks seem to be the centerpiece of the pen-testing economy to me). I interviewed at a local security company, and when I started talking about evil-maid attacks, I got blank stares back. So what really ended up happening is that guys starting realizing they could just run scans and produce fancy reports and get paid lots of money, and they got lazy and stopped contributing to the community as much.<p>Secondly though, is the chilling effect. I have been ranting about NSA for at least a decade, but we didn&#x27;t have much proof beyond the Echelon&#x2F;Tempest leaks. Now we know how pervasive it really is and that it&#x27;s still probably even worse than we thought, and people are starting to realize that we only temporarily won the 90&#x27;s crypto wars.<p>Eben Moglen said about the cryptowars: &quot;in 95 at Harvard, Stuart Baker (former NSA General Counsel), after a debate about the right to encrypt, said, &quot;...public key encryption will become available. We fought a long losing battle against it, but it was just a delaying tactic...&quot;<p>I spent some time at unallocated space, which is the closest big hacker lab to NSA headquarters, and it was sorta hush-hush that we just don&#x27;t talk about NSA stuff while there. Great guys, all around, but I feel like too many hackers got mired in the technical and forgot about the political side of things.<p>We have to realize that what is going on is a massive control power play being put into action. Surveillance of the level that is happening isn&#x27;t about security at all. It&#x27;s about control. I&#x27;m willing to bet that in the next few months we are about to see some COINTELPRO level releases from Greenwald and team. Hack all you want, and maybe even get hired by some contractor to make lots of money... but if you dare start applying those skills to politics... you better watch out because you just went to the top of a list somewhere.<p>I have put it like this, if data = information, and information = power, then secret data = secret information = secret power. Hackers are a threat to those who wield secret data, and their communities are heavily targeted for infiltration and worse. This to me, is much more influential on the hacker community than some imaged lack of creativity. I think the creativity is there, but people are having to hide it away.
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