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We Aren’t the World (2013)

145 pointsby tshepangabout 11 years ago

16 comments

Htsthbjigabout 11 years ago
The problem is that you can&#x27;t compare $100 purchasing power in USA with $100 in a remote village in Peru.<p>Imagine that instead of $100, they give you $10.000 and things change. Would you refuse $1.000 free money even if someone earns $9.000?. Hardly.<p>But this is exactly what is happening. With 1000 euros&#x2F;month I live like a king in some parts of South America,like Argentina, but I live badly in Europe, the cost of living is way higher.
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tokenadultabout 11 years ago
Partly because this item has two alternate titles, it has been submitted lots of times before (sometimes without many comments) without people noticing the duplicate submissions. One of the earliest submissions (430 days ago)[1] had well over 100 comments. My comment at the time linked to the full paper[2] by the original authors, which was one of many papers I discussed with professors of psychology (most of whom do their research in the framework of behavioral genetics)[3] that school year in the journal club I attend at my alma mater university.<p>Plainly, basing psychological research on subjects who are mostly undergraduates at United States universities is not a good idea, and there are now increasing efforts to broaden the samples of human beings used to investigate general human characteristics. Cross-cultural validation was considered very important in studies of personality psychology even before this paper was published,[4] for example.<p>Anyway, this perspective comes easily for me, as an American who has lived in a non-Western country for six years of my life (with knowledge of the language, the classical literature, and the traditional culture). Definitely the United States is not the center of the Universe. The study authors referred to people from Western cultures, who were Educated, and who live in Industrialized, Rich, Democracies as &quot;WEIRD&quot; people, and of course that acronym marks out a minority of the world population. I am part of that minority, but I have seen how non-Western, (then) less educated people lived as their country made a transition from being agricultural, poor, and dictatorial to being industrialized, rich, and democratic, and along the way the local culture changed as local conditions changed.<p>[1] <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5282343" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5282343</a><p>[2] Henrich, J., Heine, S. J., &amp; Norenzayan, A. (2010). The weirdest people in the world. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 33(2-3), 61-83.<p><a href="http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Weird_People_BBS_final02.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www2.psych.ubc.ca&#x2F;~henrich&#x2F;pdfs&#x2F;Weird_People_BBS_fina...</a><p>[3] <a href="http://www.psych.umn.edu/research/areas/pib/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.psych.umn.edu&#x2F;research&#x2F;areas&#x2F;pib&#x2F;</a><p>[4] <a href="http://scholarworks.gvsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1038&amp;context=orpc" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;scholarworks.gvsu.edu&#x2F;cgi&#x2F;viewcontent.cgi?article=103...</a>
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chippyabout 11 years ago
Let&#x27;s discuss the implications for our field, technology.<p>It appears to me that it&#x27;s calling out the particular pitfalls of the Silicon Valley mindset being rubber stamped on the rest of the world in terms of design and engineering. But this isn&#x27;t that new - it&#x27;s been commented upon before at length (e.g. logical optimistic young engineer&#x27;s view of the society via building a social network).<p>But it&#x27;s probably wider than this. I think it&#x27;s actually speaking out how we collect samples, data. We expect that 10000 people in one area to think the same as 10000 people in another area, even if they are in the same administrative country and the same geodeomographic characteristics. What matters for some behaviour is culture. Games and experiments could be looked at culturally rather than just geographically.<p>What should we take home for this? I think probably two things, that we are different from the rest of the world, and that the world has variation within it. To take this into account could be a new form of responsiveness.
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_redabout 11 years ago
The answer mostly appears in the setup:<p>&gt;The Machiguenga had traditionally been horticulturalists who lived in <i>single-family, thatch-roofed houses in small hamlets composed of clusters of extended families</i>.<p>Their living situation is one where they are all essentially family. There would be big social impacts on costing your family money, because of some perceived issue with an unequal split.<p>They are likely all going to spend &#x27;together&#x27; anyway. They are probably bewildered why this weird foreigner doesn&#x27;t grasp this basic fact, and is forcing them to go through some bizarre ceremony to get the money.
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vacriabout 11 years ago
I find this article very weird. I completed a psychology&#x2F;neurobiology degree in &#x27;94 at a second-tier Australian university. Half the stuff in this article was obvious then. The idea of physical differences being different between cultures wasn&#x27;t (like the neuroimagers mention in the article), but so much of the rest of the content was.<p>Visual lines, as quickly glossed over in the article, are different for westerners used to square corners... but this is hardly news. The idea that your environment shapes your perceptions goes back at <i>least</i> as far as 1970, when Blakemoore &amp; Cooper did their vertical&#x2F;horizontal line experiment on kittens: kittens raised in an environment where they only ever see vertical lines cannot later perceive horizontal lines and vice versa.<p>And the idea that moral reasoning is somehow genetic? What kind of craziness is this? Throw a brick and you&#x27;ll hit a family whose children have quite different moral reasoning to their parents. Or between neighbours. Same for the other features of socialisation that they mentioned.<p>At one stage the author even mentioned that Westerners are the product of &quot;thousands of generations in ever more complex market economies&quot;. A thousand generations ago, we hadn&#x27;t even reached the Neolithic period, let alone &#x27;thousands&#x27;. This part of our history isn&#x27;t particularly well known for its trading culture.<p>It just seems strange that these guys are painted as anthropologists, yet find it surprising that social aspects of the human are different in different cultures.<p><i>THE TURN THAT HENRICH, Heine, and Norenzayan are asking social scientists to make is not an easy one: accounting for the influence of culture on cognition will be a herculean task. </i><p>Here is the nub that annoys me about the article. <i>Accounting</i> for the influence of culture is a difficult one - doing a study in your home city is considerably easier than doing it against a representative slice of world cultures. However, <i>recognising</i> the influence of culture on social actions (like the &#x27;fair money divide&#x27; or moral reasoning (particularly moral reasoning... I&#x27;m still gobsmacked the author even suggested it was genetic)) is something we&#x27;ve known for a very long time, yet the article paints it as &#x27;astonished everyone&#x27;.<p>Don&#x27;t get me wrong, it&#x27;s a good point to make, that studies done on any aspect of the human condition can vary between cultures and that that&#x27;s often overlooked, but it really isn&#x27;t as astonishing as the article makes out.
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dfcabout 11 years ago
Maybe I missed it but I could not find a link to actual paper. Actual paper:<p>PDF: <a href="http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/WeirdPeople.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www2.psych.ubc.ca&#x2F;~henrich&#x2F;pdfs&#x2F;WeirdPeople.pdf</a><p>DOI: <a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/S0140525X0999152X" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;dx.doi.org&#x2F;10.1017&#x2F;S0140525X0999152X</a><p><i>NB: The paper is not free from the publisher, pdf is hosted on author&#x27;s website. DOI merely provided for the benefit of folks using citation managers. How I long for bibdesk on linux.</i>
peterjmagabout 11 years ago
One of the comments in this thread blew up the page layout: <a href="http://i.imgur.com/G3edwiY.png" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;G3edwiY.png</a> (in Chrome too). Not sure which one though. Any ideas?
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roberthahnabout 11 years ago
I learned about this study through Daniel Solis&#x27;s blog[1]. He&#x27;s a game designer.<p>His article discusses the fact that American and European boardgames reflect the cultural differences they were designed in. If you know the terms &quot;Ameritrash&quot; and &quot;Euro game&quot; you know what I&#x27;m talking about.<p>As a board game hobbyist, I&#x27;m glad that people are looking at and talking about this research. I&#x27;m curious to see if there&#x27;s a brave soul who can design an awesome, fun game that provides players with a distinctly different set of difficult choices that&#x27;s neither Euro nor Ameritrash.<p>[1] <a href="http://danielsolisblog.blogspot.ca/2014/04/game-design-outside-euro-american-binary.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;danielsolisblog.blogspot.ca&#x2F;2014&#x2F;04&#x2F;game-design-outsi...</a>
jeffdavisabout 11 years ago
It seems like the game is flawed in at least two ways:<p>1. Are there two players, or three? If the offer is refused, the researcher keeps the money. The researcher almost certainly doesn&#x27;t care, but how the other participants perceive the role of the researcher is likely to influence their idea of fairness.<p>2. Is the money a gift from one participant to another, or are they dividing up a gift from the researcher? This difference will also trigger different responses, some of which may be related to fairness and some not.<p>Of course, any experiment might tell you something interesting. But trying to say this is a test for fairness is an oversimplification.
jerfabout 11 years ago
As I write this, the HN title is &quot;Why Americans Are the Weirdest People in the World&quot;... it&#x27;s not justified because this article is more <i>that</i> Americans are the &quot;weirdest&quot;, <i>why</i> is still very speculative at this point. Considering we just came to grip with it, in academic terms, and still have only the fuzziest pictures as to the details, &quot;why&quot; is a bit premature.<p>I also find it intriguing that even as we finally identify that cultures may in fact be profoundly different and not merely superficially different, which calls the entire liberal idea of fundamental American evil into question by cutting away the most foundational assumptions it is based on, the author still can&#x27;t resist leaping to the assumption that Americans are somehow <i>wrong</i>. It&#x27;s most clear in this bit: <i>Is my thinking so strange that I have little hope of understanding people from other cultures? Can I mold my own psyche or the psyches of my children to be less WEIRD and more able to think like the rest of the world? If I did, would I be happier?</i><p>I&#x27;ll accept the last question as at least a bit of humility, but, well, before one goes socially engineering one&#x27;s own child, shouldn&#x27;t we first explore this matter more deeply and ask whether it&#x27;s even a <i>good idea</i>? And the idea casually underlies several other bits of prose, too. It will take long to purge this poisonous idea from academia, but perhaps now we can finally start.<p>This is deeply revolutionary stuff if academia actually comes to accept this (to the point that I would not be surprised this becomes one of those &quot;the old guard must die before this can be accepted&quot; sorts of things), and even as the article sort of brushes on this topic, I don&#x27;t think it really captures just how <i>foundational</i> the assumptions this destroys are. It&#x27;s not merely a sort of accepted doctrine of modern academic liberalism, the fundamental lack of diversity in human cognition is one of the most foundational foundations, sunk so deep that you can&#x27;t even notice it unless you go looking.<p>One of the worries I think would come up is the fear that this might turn into a new judgment of which cultures are &quot;better&quot;, but this article does, thankfully, already get into the right of thinking about that question, which is, better for <i>what</i>? Dropping a comfortable western person into a primitive, tribal environment and watching their maladaptive behaviors has long been a topic for movies, for instance (even if it is usually followed up by Mighty Whitey storyline [1]... follow that link if the phrasing concerns you, the racist overtones of that phrase are <i>quite</i> deliberate and derogatory of what it is describing). Cultures are different for reasons, and &quot;better&quot; requires context... but, correspondingly, so therefore does &quot;worse&quot;.<p>[1]: <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyWhitey" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;tvtropes.org&#x2F;pmwiki&#x2F;pmwiki.php&#x2F;Main&#x2F;MightyWhitey</a>
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totalrobeabout 11 years ago
These indigenous people probably split earnings among one another afterwards... this test among a small isolated group with compared with random Americans could not possibly work
oneandoneis2about 11 years ago
The fact that they thought their research would get a negative reception clearly shows they&#x27;re not cynical enough: They were providing a cast-iron case for everyone in the field to say &quot;We need more funding to do new research&quot; :)
gottasayitabout 11 years ago
<i>Henrich’s work with the ultimatum game was an example of a small but growing countertrend in the social sciences, one in which researchers look straight at the question of how deeply culture shapes human cognition.</i><p>It&#x27;s so sad that academics in the social sciences fields are terrified to ask honest questions that they might not like the answers to.<p>I guess that&#x27;s the reason that social sciences get disrespected so heavily.<p>The funny thing is that the REAL question that these people don&#x27;t want to face is &quot;Are these differences more than just cultural? Are they genetic?&quot;<p>They&#x27;d as soon ask that question as a Baptist congregation would seriously ponder Occam&#x27;s Razor and a need to posit a deity.
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BugBrotherabout 11 years ago
Ok, afaik we&#x27;re evolved to be programmed by culture -- we&#x27;re more optimized to get respect from others than to earn money.<p>But... I wonder how much of this is an effect of an inability to see some things about other cultures, because of political correctness?<p>Some differences are just shocking to modern westerners.<p>If you have read a bit of mideaval history, you realize there are some similarity between traditional clan cultures and modern organized crime families; e.g. the lack of humanity assigned to outsiders. This is not possible to discuss, since some places on the planet still have similar societies.<p>Another example is that tolerated pederasm (greek&#x2F;roman style) is not gone from the planet. It is hard to know, since it isn&#x27;t really discussed even by e.g. NY Times.<p>(All these are obvious examples from my own media, yours might be different.)
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wil421about 11 years ago
How does this have to do with &quot;Americans&quot;? I think the comparison was more towards indegionus native people verses civilized ones?<p>Where is the comparison to other more civilized people like Europeans, Asian countries, Africans, or even Russians.
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lettergramabout 11 years ago
I think the difference the author fails to take into account is (a) religious beliefs, (b) purchasing power, (c) economic class.<p>Respectively,<p>(a) Religious beliefs differ between countries and if someone believes that &quot;sharing&quot; is better than &quot;self-interest&quot; that will effect the outcome of this &quot;game.&quot; This could help to explain why this country is relatively poor.<p>(b) $100 in the U.S. is equivalent to significantly more in this country...<p>(c) If everyone is very poor and you are very poor you&#x27;re in the same boat, if your neighbors would be angry that you took $100 and left them out to dry this could be pretty bad for you. Even if this is not the case, you feel bound to these people and you likely don&#x27;t want to &quot;screw them over&quot;
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