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Seattle votes for $15 minimum wage

53 pointsby dan_bkalmost 11 years ago

15 comments

literalusernamealmost 11 years ago
SeaTac raised it to $15 at the beginning of 2014, and they&#x27;re already seeing regrettable consequences.<p><pre><code> “Are you happy with the $15 wage?” I asked the full-time cleaning lady. “It sounds good, but it’s not good,” the woman said. “Why?” I asked. “I lost my 401k, health insurance, paid holiday, and vacation,” she responded. “No more free food,” she added. The hotel used to feed her. Now, she has to bring her own food. Also, no overtime, she said. She used to work extra hours and received overtime pay. What else? I asked. “I have to pay for parking,” she said. I then asked the part-time waitress, who was part of the catering staff. “Yes, I’ve got $15 an hour, but all my tips are now much less,” she said. Before the new wage law was implemented, her hourly wage was $7. But her tips added to more than $15 an hour. Yes, she used to receive free food and parking. Now, she has to bring her own food and pay for parking. </code></pre> <a href="http://www.unitedliberty.org/articles/17751-warning-to-seattle-seatac-businesses-slashing-benefits-overtime-in-wake-of-wage-hike" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.unitedliberty.org&#x2F;articles&#x2F;17751-warning-to-seatt...</a>
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digitalengineeralmost 11 years ago
A minimum wage would stop companies indirectly sucking the &#x27;welfare-tit&#x27;, where their employees are forced to have welfare&#x2F;food stamps in order to just survive. <a href="http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/30/mcdonalds-helpline-food-stamps-minimum-wage" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;commentisfree&#x2F;2013&#x2F;oct&#x2F;30&#x2F;mcdonal...</a>
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twelvechairsalmost 11 years ago
In Australia our minimum wage is $16.37 and $20.30 for casual work (no fixed hours). I think the gap to the usa minimum wages has generally narrowed over the last decade or so. The other side is that tipping in most forms is rare. Maybe a little less so now though
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vixinalmost 11 years ago
Evidently Seattle businesses are very productive and able to readily achieve profits over and above the $600+ a week (8h&#x2F;d) cost of employing someone ( &quot;+&quot; means that I don&#x27;t know what the overhead costs are). Rather tough on those whose energy and skills do not warrant employing them at that rate. The alternative for borderline businesses is to find ways of not employing anyone at all.
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arm55almost 11 years ago
At worst, this is a great experiment. This will likely cause a substantial enough gap in pay between Seattle and another similar city that we can analyze the benefits and consequences of artificially increasing min wage.
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bakhyalmost 11 years ago
the most incredible libertarian assumption is that all companies operate in such a way that the smallest hike in pay absolutely must result in cutbacks elsewhere. apparently, no company is making any profit! :D
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DanBCalmost 11 years ago
Things to watch for:<p>1) businesses making employees clock in when it&#x27;s busy, and clock out but stay on the premises when it&#x27;s not busy. Thus, the business has workers available but only has to pay them for some of the time those workers are there.<p>2) &quot;zero hour contracts&quot;. <a href="http://acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4468" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;acas.org.uk&#x2F;index.aspx?articleid=4468</a><p>Other things the UK has done is increase the amount someone needs to earn before they start paying income tax; reduce the lower rates of income tax; provide &quot;working tax credit&quot; to some people, etc.<p>I have no idea how the US tax system works so I don&#x27;t know if that could be done or would work with voters. (&quot;Supporting business to employ people on fair wages&quot; maybe?)
bmm6oalmost 11 years ago
For anyone who thinks that $15 minimum wage is a bad idea, what do you think is the &quot;correct&quot; value for a legislated minimum wage? Is the current value also too high? Should there be such a thing as a minimum wage?
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holograhamalmost 11 years ago
I think most people on HN agree that employees <i>should</i> be paid proportional to the value they create. In fact that is an underlying reason many folks choose to work for (or start) a startup for equity rather than a big company for a salary. With equity, the more value you produce the more you make.<p>For the rest of America, you typically work for an agreed upon sum (salary or hourly wage) with your employer. We call this a mutually agreeable contract since no one is forced to work for an employer in our modern society (we have valid laws to prevent this scenario). If an employee does not like a given wage, they can shop their skills around for another employer (or start their own company) in order to gain a higher wage. We call this the free market.<p>I am a libertarian all about math. But even putting math aside, with the logic above why is there a need for a minimum wage?
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conroe64almost 11 years ago
Now, if only the workers did $15 per hour worth of work, everything would be set...
dan_bkalmost 11 years ago
&gt; A councillor who supported the push said the vote &quot;sends a message heard around the world&quot;.<p>Probably the most important aspect here. Don&#x27;t get ripped off.
todd8almost 11 years ago
For years, I&#x27;ve been frustrated by the debate over the minimum wage. Like many economic arguments, lots of ideas are mixed together and argued without very clear analysis. Seattle will offer us an opportunity to see what really happens when we establish minimum wages at levels comparable to some other developed countries.<p>I happen to be a libertarian, and I note that there are often philosophical and economic arguments to be made for policy decisions. I&#x27;d like to see policies that are both just and economically efficient. So, for example, an argument (clearly specious) that women staying out of the workplace would produce overall economic gains doesn&#x27;t matter to me. I don&#x27;t care if it would or it wouldn&#x27;t be more economically efficient for women (or minorities or red-heads) to be restricted from certain jobs. It&#x27;s wrong to have laws restricting the freedom of women or minorities or red-heads and that trumps economic arguments.<p>In Seattle, they have decided that restrictions on their citizens fundamental freedoms, will on balance be worth instituting, but the freedom to work, entering into an agreement to sell one&#x27;s labor, is an important freedom that is being abrogated. What if Seattle decided that it wanted to encourage more high tech workers to move to Seattle, because it would increase the tax base, and they instituted a minimum wage for programmers, say $160 per hour. What would happen? Would you like being told that you were not allowed to program in Seattle unless you could find a job that paid $320,000 per year? It would ruin things. Like $160 per hour programmers, many $16 per hour low-skilled teenage kids will be priced right out of the job market.<p>I got my start working in my first full-time job working for under $3 per hour. I lived at home with my parents, and my income made only a modest dent on the family&#x27;s overall income, but it gave me a start. I learned to get up every morning, get to work, and do my job. Low wage jobs are a way to get into the job market, even if they don&#x27;t immediately provide wealth and comfort.<p>Ignoring the restrictions on our freedom of contract, some argue that this development is a good thing nevertheless, that the $16 per hour will help those living in poverty. Well, if $16 per hour is a good thing why wouldn&#x27;t $25 per hour be even better? Clearly there is a level that will have negative impacts. Those supporting $16 per hour seem to recognize that there will be negative impacts, but the argument goes that these negative impacts are not so bad because they affect a group that the minimum wage supporters don&#x27;t like or don&#x27;t care about (for example, business owners).<p>Perhaps supporters of the new minimum wage really do care about everyone and my last paragraph is too harsh. In that case what I see is a kind of first-order effect rationale being given that ignores the indirect, but possibly quite significant, consequences of the new minimum wage policy. Each side in this debate has studies that they can cite, but money doesn&#x27;t grow on trees. It has to come from somewhere. Businesses will have to cover the costs by doing either (1) lowering the dividends to the owners&#x2F;shareholders, (2) decreasing the salaries of higher paid employees or employing fewer people, or (3) increasing the costs imposed on the business&#x27;s consumers. All of these actions have negative consequences. (1), lowering the benefits of owning the business means that over time, there will be less of them in Seattle; (2), lowers employment, often of the people this policy is purported to help; and (3), increases costs to everyone (or lowers the quality of the goods provided).<p>If my simple breakdown in the previous paragraph is correct, why are politicians in Seattle supporting this new minimum wage? Politicians want to stay in office and they can use the minimum wage to appeal to large groups. One group is those that want to help others but don&#x27;t understand economics or freedom well enough to understand what this policy means. The other group is comprised of those whose jobs might be threatened by workers willing to do the same job for less than $16 per hour. (This is the reason that unions are big supporters of raising the minimum wage even though their workers have wages far above minimum wage. It protects their high wages from low cost competition.)
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trhwayalmost 11 years ago
why Bay Area cities wouldn&#x27;t do that? How much pricier our coffee&#x2F;burritos would get here so that we stop buying them thus making the minimum wage increase a &quot;job killer&quot;? I think even making it $30&#x2F;hour people here would hardly notice it.
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omarforgotpwdalmost 11 years ago
&quot;Seattle votes to fire everyone worth less than $15 &#x2F; hour&quot;
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homakovalmost 11 years ago
How exactly will it help? Employers are not stupid, they will pay the same money eventually, destroying the perks.