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Ergonomics of the Symbolics Lisp Machine

179 pointsby BruceMalmost 11 years ago

13 comments

crististmalmost 11 years ago
I&#x27;ve managed today to boot OpenGenera in a Linux VM. It took me a couple of weeks but it finally works. I intend to have a look myself at what the fuss is all about.<p>If you&#x27;re interested, here are some pointers to relevant resources (snap4.tar.gz image works as advertised):<p><a href="http://www.advogato.org/person/johnw/diary/12.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.advogato.org&#x2F;person&#x2F;johnw&#x2F;diary&#x2F;12.html</a><p><a href="http://www.cliki.net/VLM_on_Linux" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cliki.net&#x2F;VLM_on_Linux</a><p><a href="http://libarynth.org/vlm_on_linux" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;libarynth.org&#x2F;vlm_on_linux</a><p>The opengenera tar-ball can be found in the intertubes.<p>Tip: Use Ubuntu 7.04 x86-64 to save you some trouble. I don&#x27;t know what is the most recent distro that works but 10.10 doesn&#x27;t. You get a blank window because recent X servers are missing something. Before proceeding with the installation, complete the Ubuntu image with relevant archive server URLs to be able to apt-get with ease.
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jfalmost 11 years ago
I own a Symbolics Lisp Machine (a MacIvory). I&#x27;m in San Francisco and would be happy to show it to anybody who&#x27;s interested and in the San Francisco Bay Area.<p>Be warned, I&#x27;m still learning how to use Genera, so we&#x27;d be learning how to use the system together.
cpralmost 11 years ago
The <i>real</i> ergonomics of the LispM were due to the wonderful Microswitch keyboards, which have never been equalled since. To use one was a kind of revelation into the the apotheosis of keyboard use.<p>(The old, original Tom Knight AI Lab keyboards were even slightly more wonderful; the later Microswitch LispM keyboards never quite equalled the originals in terms of tactilely satisfying feel.)<p>(For a long while after leaving MIT (ran the MIT-EECS LispM and DEC-20 machines) I used one of the custom-made Lawrence Livermore run of Microswitch keyboards, driving a custom 68K board which turned the up&#x2F;down events into standard RS-232 for use with standard CRT terminals. I think I still have that keyboard somewhere in the now-long-abandoned kids&#x27; play junk.)
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mehmetemrealmost 11 years ago
&gt; It was completely programmable with all source code. It was also not for &#x27;playing&#x27; around - for that it was too expensive. As a software developer you could focus on your task and the whole operating system was supporting you. There was no piece of software that was not accessible in a few mouse clicks. Everything could be inspected, everything was up for modification. Software was live and dynamic. Not dead and static like today. There was no boundary between software development and software usage.<p>This reminds me of Smalltalk environment like Pharo. I recently realised that there were so much things in common between Lisp and Smalltalk environments (by Lisp environments I mean what we have today like SLIME+Emacs or LightTable). I also think that LightTable has a huge potential for being a successor of Lisp machines and _really_ integrated development environments.
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owenversteegalmost 11 years ago
Site&#x27;s down, here&#x27;s a pastebin of the text: <a href="http://pastebin.com/6kkCTgjg" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;pastebin.com&#x2F;6kkCTgjg</a><p>Neither archive.org nor Google Cache have this. Weird.<p>Video from article: <a href="http://vimeo.com/83886950" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;vimeo.com&#x2F;83886950</a><p>Image 1: <a href="http://i.imgur.com/r62FSfE.jpg" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;r62FSfE.jpg</a><p>Image 2: <a href="http://i.imgur.com/xsxutc3.png" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;xsxutc3.png</a><p>Image 3: <a href="http://i.imgur.com/zL9DFbr.png" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;zL9DFbr.png</a>
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eudoxalmost 11 years ago
Related: A huge collections of images showing Symbolics UI and the software written for it: <a href="http://lispm.de/symbolics-ui-examples/symbolics-ui-examples.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;lispm.de&#x2F;symbolics-ui-examples&#x2F;symbolics-ui-examples....</a>
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wilfredhughesalmost 11 years ago
I&#x27;d love to play with a Lisp Machine. I live in London, UK, so sadly I can&#x27;t see any way of using one (either a physical device or a VM). There are pirate copies, but I don&#x27;t want to go that route.<p>What lisp machine articles often miss is contrast to other related projects.<p>Complete introspectable systems: How does the experience compare with using Pharo Smalltalk today? Sure, it doesn&#x27;t provide a kernel, but it&#x27;s a pretty complete* system that&#x27;s very reflective and open to modification.<p>Running a lisp userland: There are Common Lisp replacements for Emacs, CL window managers, and one or two Lisp Machine style GUI libraries (CLIM). However, most Lispers seem to be happy using other WMs and Emacs. Do the CL applications miss something that the Lisp Machine environment provided, or were the alternatives more compelling somehow?<p>Other Lisp Machines: The MIT CADR is open source and available online[1]. Lisp Machine articles seem to focus on Symbolics software, what is that the CADR lacks? rms allegedly reimplemented many Symbolics features on MIT Lisp machines.<p>I&#x27;m often struck by how many Lisp Machine features have been implemented on other systems (e.g. CLIM, versioned file systems) yet haven&#x27;t gained many users. There must be stories here.<p>1: <a href="http://www.unlambda.com/cadr/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.unlambda.com&#x2F;cadr&#x2F;</a><p>*: Of the developers I&#x27;ve met, Emacs hackers seem to live in Emacs more than Smalltalkers in their image. For example, there are multiple Emacs twitter packages, but I&#x27;ve not seen any applications (only libraries) for tweeting from inside a Smalltalk image. I&#x27;m not sure what this says about the respective environments.
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pjmlpalmost 11 years ago
Sometimes I wonder how much better the computing would be if Lisp Machines had succeeded in the industry and UNIX never left the lab.
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banealmost 11 years ago
Out of curiosity, what were things that these systems did poorly or that we know not to do these days?
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pnathanalmost 11 years ago
What kind of systems today in the software development field are produced by experts for experts?<p>The only ones I can think of are languages like C++ or Rust. Perhaps emacs and vi...
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endlessvoid94almost 11 years ago
seems to be down, does anyone have a mirror?
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madengralmost 11 years ago
&quot;It was also grounded in the believe that software development is best done by small groups of very good software engineers working in a networked environment.&quot;<p>Wow, what a quote. Now can we repeatedly beat that into management&#x27;s head.
gcb0almost 11 years ago
that keyboard, along with the space cadet one, is an aberration.<p>It is too complex for novices, with too many keys. And not optimal to the initiated, as key combinations are much more efficient.<p>anyone with the slightest ergonomic knowledge cringe just by glancing at those things.
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