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Developers: stop re-AOLizing the web!

188 pointsby technicalfaultalmost 11 years ago

22 comments

risalmost 11 years ago
Technically email isn&#x27;t the web.<p>That&#x27;s not to say the web isn&#x27;t being AOL-ized. How many firms do you see these days advertising their presence on Facebook or Twitter over their own website (over which they have full control), in the same way we used to see companies everywhere advertising their &quot;aol keyword&quot;?<p>The reality of &quot;the cloud&quot; is we&#x27;re squeezing things back into a few giant silos.
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Spooky23almost 11 years ago
They do this for good reason -- dealing with the various dysfunctional IMAP implementations out there makes your product look lousy and costs alot of time &amp; treasure to support. When some squeaky wheel blogger with a screwed up IMAP server writes a ten page rant about why you suck, nobody gets the other side of the story.<p>I had a relative who ran a business that only served customers in Manhattan. Brooklyn? Jersey? Not interested.<p>Why? His competitive edge was understanding his customer base cold. He knew what companies were in what buildings, and all of the trivia about different neighborhoods and streets that let him win bids and save time.
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bfwialmost 11 years ago
I don&#x27;t know why the developer of Mailbox decided to only support Gmail and Apple iCloud. But I do know that making an IMAP client is extremely painful. I once had to, and I can&#x27;t remember having to deal with a more confusing or frustrating interface.
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leephillipsalmost 11 years ago
A few points that seem to make the author&#x27;s argument stronger:<p>AOL is, unfortunately, far from dead. There are still plenty of AOL email addresses out there. This is a problem. I&#x27;ve run my own email server for a decade or so, with very few problems. AOL is one of the problems. Every now and then AOL bounces one of my emails with an error code that signifies that my IP has been associated with spam or something of the sort. I know this is bogus. No spam, newsletters, or any form of email marketing comes from that IP. In the past I used to go through the steps to get my IP off their list, and they would always do so immediately. I don&#x27;t bother anymore. If you use AOL you may not get all your email. If you don&#x27;t like that, get a real email address. (The bans tend to last only a day or so.)<p>Google claims to be operating SMTP and IMAP servers, and they almost are. But they make slight adjustments to the protocols that tend to enhance their control.[0] They mostly follow the RFPs that specify how an SMTP server is supposed to behave, but violate them when they feel like it, while still advertising themselves as an SMTP server. You just need to experiment to discover what their servers will actually do with your email.<p>[0] <a href="http://lee-phillips.org/gmailRewriting/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;lee-phillips.org&#x2F;gmailRewriting&#x2F;</a>
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herghostalmost 11 years ago
Building a tool to enhance the experience of another service isn&#x27;t the same as building or supporting a walled garden.<p>That&#x27;s like saying &quot;developing for iOS||Android||Windows Phone||Symbian is supporting a walled garden!&quot; or &quot;making a petrol||diesel||electric car is supporting a walled garden!&quot;<p>No - it&#x27;s like making something that improves something else, for a demographic that you&#x27;ve decided has <i>some kind of</i> benefit to you or your interests longer term.
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epagaalmost 11 years ago
As the developer of a similar iPhone app which was GMail only (EmptyInbox), let me just say: IMAP is really, really hard to get right. Each different mail provider is different and nobody is keeping all the rules. Even Google had a few hacky differences to the &quot;official&quot; IMAP way of doing things.<p>I can completely understand why Mailbox only supports GMail and iCloud...so actually, we need to be getting on Google and Apple&#x27;s case rather than app developers. Not that I&#x27;m biased or anything...
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atoponcealmost 11 years ago
So, let me get this straight. You&#x27;re upset, because a proprietary software application that supports proprietary protocols from proprietary service providers, is not using open standards? If only there was a solution...
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chimeracoderalmost 11 years ago
&gt; Google (and to a lesser extent) Apple, Facebook and Twitter, have little interest in allowing their products to inter-operate in a meaningful way.<p>Having had to deal with Google&#x27;s somewhat non-compliant implementation of IMAP recently, I&#x27;m not going to say that they&#x27;re big on having their products interoperate.<p>However, I would be hard-pressed to make a case that Google is <i>less</i> interested than Apple, Facebook, and Twitter in having their products inter-operate, either with their own or with other companies&#x27;.<p>Google&#x27;s entire business model requires a far more open web than the other three properties, in order to function. They still don&#x27;t favor a truly open web, but they&#x27;re far less siloed than Apple, Facebook, and Twitter, whose business models all require[0] siloes in order to function (though for completely different reasons, hence why Apple and Facebook aren&#x27;t competitive the way Google&#x2F;Apple or Google&#x2F;Facebook are).<p>[0] Twitter is arguably the only exception here.
kraigspearalmost 11 years ago
Minimal Viable Feature Set. Support those well, decide later if it makes business sense to support others.
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jacquesmalmost 11 years ago
AOL was successful for a reason: It made this complex stuff simple. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If you want users to be free from silos then you&#x27;re going to have to find a way to make it <i>easier</i> for them rather than to tell them they should abandon these services and accept the complexity. Integrated services can offer a level of simplicity to their users that is very hard to achieve in a decentralized manner.
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adventuredalmost 11 years ago
It&#x27;s perfectly logical for this cycle to be occurring.<p>It&#x27;s nothing more than technology inflection points in action. It will continue to repeat and there is nothing that can stop that.<p>Seeking to stop the so-called AOL&#x27;izing is like asking nature to stop making wild fires. These things happen for a reason, it&#x27;s not a fluke, it&#x27;s not bad. It will cycle. Prepare for the next cycle shift, don&#x27;t lament today, build tomorrow, it&#x27;s that simple.<p>It&#x27;s no different than being upset about Android becoming the latest operating system monopoly, replicating what Windows accomplished 20 years prior. Stop operating system monopolies! Well, it&#x27;s perfectly natural and will continue to happen. If someone has been around tech for more than a few years and hasn&#x27;t figured out how these cycles and networks function, they must really not be paying attention.
thehal84almost 11 years ago
Perhaps the author fails to see that introducing more functionality is additional support. A developer or team has to now support and bugfix more then just Gmail and iCloud which already hits 80% of the market share for this use case. Just my $0.02.
tomasienalmost 11 years ago
I&#x27;m not 100% sure but I thought Mailbox needed access to certain things that are outside IMAP to do what it does. For instance, it makes its own folder in Gmail that it interacts with, and I&#x27;m not 100% sure if &quot;Archive&quot; is a standard IMAP function.<p>I&#x27;m not an IMAP dev so I&#x27;m open to hearing differently from someone who knows better, but it was my understanding a network-neutral IMAP solution wasn&#x27;t tenable.
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ljoshuaalmost 11 years ago
Doesn&#x27;t directly address the original author&#x27;s concern, but he ought to try Boxer--similar application, <i>does</i> support IMAP.
mbestoalmost 11 years ago
I&#x27;m not sure what the author&#x27;s gripe is. First, if you don&#x27;t like walled gardens then simply don&#x27;t use them. Second, if you&#x27;re adamant they shouldn&#x27;t exist, then why not roll your open source alternative? Good luck with trying to get &quot;dumb&quot; users to adopt your solution.
jhwhitealmost 11 years ago
I don&#x27;t see Mailbox AOL-izing the web. I do see ISP attempting to do this.<p>If they can lock down the content that you see based on what they&#x27;re getting paid to show to you, that&#x27;s effectively what AOL was doing in the 90&#x27;s and early 00&#x27;s.<p>They&#x27;re creating that walled garden around content.
shmerlalmost 11 years ago
Same thing goes about instant messengers. I wish developers would stop producing junk like Whatsapp which AOL-izes the Web and would use standard, interoperable and federated protocols.
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everydaypanosalmost 11 years ago
Point about IMAP is right on. All else is utter nonsense. Author mistakenly assumes that user experience plus features carries on to IMAP which is..wrong.
banealmost 11 years ago
Users are a pyramid. At the top of the pyramid are highly technical users who spend all day not minding spending all day dealing with hostile and spiteful interfaces to get trivial tasks done - there are very few of these people in the world. As you progressively work your way down the pyramid users become progressively less inclined to tolerate this nonsense and the number of people in that segment grows.<p>At the very bottom, the largest population of possible users, are people who&#x27;s toleration of any sort of confusion of nonsense from their computer device things is at zero.<p>As a company, you have to decide how far down this pyramid you want to target your products. The lower down the pyramid, the more work you have to put into your product on the usability side, you may even decide to ignore higher tiers on the pyramid because you can only put so much effort into a product, and the upper bits of the pyramid represent an astonishingly small fraction of the market space.<p>AOL did one thing really well, they decided early on to target the absolute bottom tier of the pyramid that they could recognize. This is pre-Internet days where practically everything you ever wanted to do with a computer was user-hostile. They didn&#x27;t give two shits about users who knew all of the Hayes command set by heart, because those users were 1% of the entire possible market and supporting them was as much effort as supporting the 99% they were trying to get money out of.<p>The Internet didn&#x27;t even immediately kill AOL, as in their own controlled user interface. It really was easier to start &quot;your AOL&quot; wait a minute for the funny sounds to stop and type in &quot;gardening&quot; to get more than enough information about that subject. You could even guess at keywords, &quot;cars&quot; or &quot;cooking&quot; probably took you someplace as well.<p>The Internet started at the absolute top-most part of the pyramid and we&#x27;ve spent decades trying to get it to work where all the money is, the bottom bits. It hasn&#x27;t helped that there were all sorts of unexplainable (to the common user) hanger ons and hatefulness that users have had to deal with along the way. But every time we improve the experience a little, high fives everywhere and the bottom lines jumps another million dollars.<p>Anybody remember the old ways to setup an email client? Remember all the little bits and pieces of information you needed, POP3 or IMAP mail server, SMTP server, authentication, encryption methods, different user&#x2F;pass for sending and receiving, opening firewalls, setting spam filters, etc?<p>Then it got better. The last time I set up Thunderbird I supplied it with approximately two pieces of information, my email address and my password.<p>Do you remember how an AOL user set up their mail? They didn&#x27;t.<p>Why is this important? Because that other stuff is hateful to the user. It&#x27;s also pointless. It never should have gotten to the point where I needed all that stuff just to get my email. But that&#x27;s what happens when you design software for the top of the pyramid. You can make it as obtuse, undocumented&#x2F;poorly documented and hostile as you want, and there will still be a small population at the top of that pyramid who won&#x27;t mind dealing with it.<p>I was pondering the other day the vast reduction in websites (and other internet services) that I typically visit and use in a day from 10-20 years ago. Pretty much I use, HN, Reddit, Facebook, gmail and youtube for fun and my corporate equivalents for work. I felt sad for a moment because the internet used to seem so much more chaotic and vibrant.<p>I&#x27;m pretty sure that 10-20 years ago I&#x27;d have spent time on USENET, telnetted into something, fought with my mail client, hit as many ftp servers as web sites, probably at least 1 gopher site and more. I&#x27;d have probably searched for any search term on multiple search engines to make sure I wasn&#x27;t missing any results and more. 20 years ago I would have even supplemented my time on the Internet with time on local BBS&#x27;s, each with different interfaces and services.<p>But today what&#x27;s the point? I didn&#x27;t like calling into all those BBSs, or going to all those sites. One site with all those services is much less user-friction to deal with. I didn&#x27;t like mucking around in some command-line ftp client, why shouldn&#x27;t I just have a link on a webpage someplace to download something? Why should I telnet into some message board to talk about the Amiga when some meta-message board service lets me just go to &#x2F;r&#x2F;amiga? What&#x27;s the point of gopher when the web works so much better? Why USENET when I can find better, less spammy conversation on HN or reddit?<p>And guess what? It&#x27;s even better than that! I can shop on-line, I don&#x27;t have to drive anywhere, deal with parking, deal with people, deal with the heat. From my toilet, on my phone, I can buy just about anything I&#x27;d ever want to buy and have it delivered to my front door within 48 hours.<p>It&#x27;s not just that the world today is more convenient, in some notional tradeoff of power vs. convenience, it really is actually better. We&#x27;re not quite at AOL levels of simplicity. I still have to waste time explaining to my mom why she needs to type &quot;<a href="https://www.&quot;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.&quot;</a> when all she wants to do is type the name of her bank and have it go there.<p>More importantly, there&#x27;s absolutely nothing preventing anybody from doing any of the old things. Want to run a gopher site? Set up a gopher server and do it! Want to run your own private message board behind an obscure domain name? do it! You can still target that top of the pyramid user if you want to, but understand that if you want to make money from it...well...good luck.
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PeterGriffinalmost 11 years ago
IMAP was created in 1986.<p>You&#x27;ll have to excuse app authors for not turning a blind eye towards the modern APIs that vendors expose.<p>To have a great standard, you need to have a non-standard predecessor that sets the tone, approach and philosophy and has proven itself out in the wild without the crutch of a standards body mandating its use. In this way &quot;closed&quot; and &quot;open&quot; work hand in hand to form a healthy ecosystem.<p>Good standards can&#x27;t materialize in vacuum. &quot;Non-standard&quot; APIs are the fertile soil they grow in. Most of HTML5 was proprietary extensions before they were standardized. In fact, most of HTML has been &quot;vendor specific&quot; before it was standardized (including the &lt;img&gt; tag).<p>What is the alternative anyway? To &quot;stop re-AOLizing the web&quot; means to stop progress and stick with a horrible email protocol that has seen little improvement since it was created <i>30 years ago</i>.<p>EDIT: All right, people are angry because I&#x27;m not acknowledging the current version, IMAP4, which was coined in 1993. Sorry, sorry. That makes it a very modern standard. It <i>completely</i> changes everything I said.
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oldmanjayalmost 11 years ago
critics: stop telling me what to build. make it yourself if you feel so strongly
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ebbvalmost 11 years ago
Mailbox is a product made by Gmail users targeting other Gmail users who want a specifically improved experience. They weren&#x27;t targeting just generic &quot;email&quot; users. This isn&#x27;t a flaw in their design any more than it&#x27;s a flaw in the design of a Porsche 911 that it can&#x27;t haul your new dining room set in the back.<p>As far as the popularity of Gmail email addresses vs. the influx of AOL email addresses in the 90s; it&#x27;s apples and oranges. The flood of AOL email addresses was bad because it heralded many clueless people into the Internet who were disruptive to the established culture.<p>It&#x27;s not inherently bad many people share an email domain. That&#x27;s silly.
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