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Subtle -isms at Hacker School

67 pointsby nqureshialmost 11 years ago

22 comments

HarrietJonesalmost 11 years ago
Well today&#x27;s my day to be the not-so-subtle-ist asshole at Hacker News.<p>It&#x27;s one thing to recognise that systemic forms of bias and discrimination can be subtle and invisible to those trying to fix them, but all this sort of thing does is hand more keys over to a small subset of people who are less interested in making the world more equal and more interested in grabbing, holding and exercising social power.<p>Shaming rituals, however light in touch they are, rarely improve things. They&#x27;re just another small-p political tool to be used by politically minded people to exert social control.
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whiskypetersalmost 11 years ago
<i>&quot;we&#x27;ve been trying to stop using &quot;you guys&quot; to refer to mixed-gender groups.&quot;</i><p>Am I the only one that finds this over the top?<p><i>&quot;No &#x27;subtle -isms&#x27; is about recognizing the ways we&#x27;re unconciously</i> [sic] <i>making our friends&#x27; lives a little worse.&quot;</i><p>I&#x27;m sorry, if your life is <i>made worse</i> by a completely benign (and friendly) statement like &quot;ok guys, have a nice weekend&quot; then you are naive and irrational. Creating an environment that indulges every childish sensitivity does not do those individuals any favors and makes a mockery of their cause.<p><i>&quot;For the last year, the &#x27;No subtle -isms&#x27; rule has carried some implementation guidelines. One of these is asking people not to debate whether or not something is an -ism.&quot;</i><p>Accusing someone of (even subtle) sexism or racism is <i>not to be taken lightly</i>—this rule forces the accused to apologize (affirming the alleged bias) without defending or explaining themselves. This is unethical and dilutes legitimate complaints.<p>A proverb that comes to mind: &quot;Those who speak most about misfortune will find it. Those who speak most about success will find it.&quot;
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ssfrralmost 11 years ago
It&#x27;s really hard to predict the effect of social rules like these, which is why Hacker School does their best to actually test them empirically and change them if they&#x27;re negatively impacting the environment.<p>A lot of people seem to be concerned about the chilling effects that these policies <i>could</i> have. This is a valid concern, as nobody wants to be in a place where they&#x27;re constantly second-guessing everything they say.<p>The nice thing is that we don&#x27;t just have to speculate, and we can look at what <i>has actually happened</i> at Hacker School, and the feedback from those who have actually experienced the environment seems overwhelmingly positive, both for people who have been traditionally marginalized and for those who have been unintentional marginalizers.<p>disclosure: I&#x27;m not a Hacker Schooler but I know Nick and Dave well. I&#x27;ve seen first hand how deeply and genuinely they care about making Hacker School both extremely inclusive and also free for open discussion and transparency.
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invadedbyalmost 11 years ago
This is a throwaway account. I feel we are being invaded. The culture we used to have didn&#x27;t cared about <i>isms</i> or whatever you want to call them. It developed through text were it hardly matter who was on the other side of the connection, only skills and thoughts mattered. Those were the good old days, when we were free.<p>Now we are being invaded. We, like every other culture in the world, are ask to not use certain language and not have certain thoughts. If we do not comply, we are heretics. Only they don&#x27;t use that term, they rather use some <i>ism</i>.<p>The wheel of history is repeating. The control freaks still want to control, they just changed one set of sins for another.
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streptomycinalmost 11 years ago
<i>Although our employees are diverse on some axes, we&#x27;re 90% white. There are also class barriers to attending Hacker School - while Hacker School is free, living in New York for three months is not.</i><p>I can&#x27;t help but laugh sometimes. Good thing all the rich white women feel comfortable!<p>But seriously, how is it possible to have so few Asians? Usually the &quot;problem&quot; is that there are far too many. Maybe we need affirmative action for Asians, for once?
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jrainesalmost 11 years ago
What&#x27;s the difference between a &quot;well, actually&quot; and correcting someone&#x27;s misunderstanding -- or rather, when is it not welcome? My understanding is that it&#x27;s when someone parachutes into a conversation uninvited to correct someone, but if I was in a learning setting like Hacker School, I feel like I would welcome that from fellow students or instructors.
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bshimminalmost 11 years ago
It&#x27;s really heartening that this has gone down like a lead balloon here.<p>Seriously, anyone who manages to take offence at a mixed group being greeted with &quot;you guys&quot; really needs to find something better to do. It doesn&#x27;t consciously or unconsciously make anyone&#x27;s life worse. It&#x27;s just a couple of words that are a convenient greeting.
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cjf4almost 11 years ago
At a certain point don&#x27;t you have to trust people to be adults?<p>If someone&#x27;s being a &quot;subtle&quot; racist, they&#x27;re just being racist, and you can deal accordingly (likewise for the rest of the &quot;subtlisms&quot;). Beyond that, if you want people to act with maturity, you have to treat them like adults, which these rules certainly don&#x27;t do.
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doctorstupidalmost 11 years ago
Sounds like a cult-ism.
apialmost 11 years ago
I ask this as a general question to all of tech culture, not to just this particular setting:<p>What about subtile elitism?<p>It&#x27;s one of the biggest subtile -isms I&#x27;ve run into. If you didn&#x27;t go to a top ten university, you&#x27;re sort of in a lower echelon in the tech world. In practice this subtilely selects for people from higher socioeconomic backgrounds and&#x2F;or people who have an &quot;academic-oriented&quot; learning style as opposed to an autodidact or self-directed learning style. It also contributes to America&#x27;s regional class system... the top ten schools are by and large on the coasts. If you&#x27;re from, say, Kansas or Ohio you are less likely to attend one of them than if you&#x27;re from California or Massachusetts.<p>My impression for a long time has been that a significant chunk of the tech world is a top ten universities only club full of Stanford, MIT, Harvard, etc. graduates hiring, funding, and promoting other top university graduates. You could play a drinking game on sites like AngelList: take a shot every time someone lists &quot;attended MIT&quot; or &quot;graduated from Stanford&quot; as their <i>sole qualification</i> for being a founder or seeking a job.<p>Racism and sexism definitely exist, but from what I&#x27;ve seen socioeconomic elitism is the most powerful discriminatory -ism in the tech world. It&#x27;s not an either-or thing of course. It just adds yet another barrier that outsiders must overcome. Barriers are kind of additive... each barrier reinforces the other pre-existing barriers by adding another point of resistance.<p>I&#x27;ve got to admit that this is a personal gripe. I&#x27;m from the flyover country, and I&#x27;m also not an academic type. I hated school for the most part. I just don&#x27;t learn that way. But for some reason listing things like &quot;has single-handedly conceived, designed, implemented, and shipped the following products...&quot; or &quot;taught myself 6502 assembly language at the age of ten using only the appendix of the Commodore 64 extended manual&quot; just doesn&#x27;t carry the same weight as &quot;graduated from Stanford.&quot; Even if I could say &quot;graduated with honors from the University of Cincinnati,&quot; I doubt this would carry near as much oomph as &quot;attended MIT&quot; even if my grades at MIT were poor.<p>I can&#x27;t imagine being female or black&#x2F;hispanic <i>and</i> not having the top ten degree. I feel like without &quot;MIT&quot; or &quot;Stanford&quot; I have to be twice as smart and work twice as hard. It feels like it&#x27;s exponential. If I were not white and male I&#x27;d have to work... what... sixteen times as hard?<p>Edit: HN won&#x27;t let me comment on this thread any more, so I&#x27;ll put my responses here:<p>Re: elite universities equalizing admissions: no, it doesn&#x27;t matter. There are 300+ million people in America and 7+ billion on Earth. Your odds of getting &quot;tapped&quot; by one of these kingmakers is vanishingly small regardless of how smart you are or how hard you work. Tweaking the selection bias of a tiny choke point does not change the overall size of that gate.<p>Re: the thread in general: whenever these kinds of threads come up, I find myself disagreeing with both the PC police and the hordes of right-wingers that materialize out of the ether. I really say a pox on both their houses. The wingers are hopelessly naive about the realities of discrimination. The PC police sort of have their hearts in the right place, but the problem is that PC stuff addresses the wrong causes. Women don&#x27;t find it uncomfortable to work in tech because of phrases like &quot;man up&quot; or &quot;hey guys.&quot; They find themselves excluded for more subtile reasons of cliquishness and in-group selection. These cliquish mechanisms are the same ones that give rise to top ten university bias, racial bias, cultural bias, etc. It&#x27;s a microcosmic manifestation of what on the larger social stage is called the &quot;old boy network.&quot; Playing language police is a lot easier than trying to <i>really</i> break up the cliques. The latter is incredibly difficult, as humans are tribal and cliquish by nature.<p>Still unable to post. I&#x27;m not going to forcefully assert some kind of soft-banning since as far as I know I&#x27;m being fooled by randomness, but I have noticed that &quot;you are posting too fast&quot; tends to appear in a way that seems uncorrelated to how fast I&#x27;m actually posting. Maybe it&#x27;s just a strange algorithm with weird edge case behaviors. But... I did want to post this:<p><a href="http://www.broadstreetreview.com/cross-cultural/Demise_of_Antioch_College" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.broadstreetreview.com&#x2F;cross-cultural&#x2F;Demise_of_An...</a><p>It is highly relevant, as I think it illustrates how PC policing can lead to a kind of &quot;Animal Farm&quot; scenario. While the rhetoric might be all about diversity, the reality is that diversity rhetoric can be used as another mechanism for the real power clique to maintain its dominance.
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thumbtackthiefalmost 11 years ago
I&#x27;m going to say one last thing and then move on with my life. It seems that most of the dissent revolves around asking that debates about when these things are pointed out be kept private.<p>So, I got almost no work done today, and I&#x27;m all sorts of grouchy and irritable because of this discussion. I probably didn&#x27;t convince anyone, and no one convinced me. So what did this debate accomplish? Who feels better now? All HS wants to do is keep this sort of nonsense from happening. Person A says something, Person B objects, Person A either apologizes or doesn&#x27;t, and they move on. If they really need to discuss, they don&#x27;t bring in People C through Z and ruin their days and productivity as well. Whichever side you&#x27;re on, that seems like a pretty good idea to me.<p>Furthermore, we all make innocuous comments that are ignorant of another group&#x27;s situation. When someone asks me about my wife, I don&#x27;t flip out and call them a homophobe for assuming I&#x27;m straight. But if they fight me when I point it out and refuse to acknowledge the fact that maybe they could stand to broaden their experience, I start to wonder why they&#x27;re fighting me so much and what prejudices they&#x27;re hiding.<p>These rules work in Hacker School. They work because they&#x27;re lightweight and no one feels like a terrible person for breaking them. If other communities are organically adopting them because the structure has been successful, I don&#x27;t understand why you&#x27;d fight it so much.
fred_durstalmost 11 years ago
I think Hacker School&#x27;s own words about why they no longer give feedback is a great example of what happens when one hyper analyzes the context and connotation of everything a person says and does.<p><a href="https://www.hackerschool.com/feedback" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.hackerschool.com&#x2F;feedback</a><p>Eventually, everyone stops communicating and just says nothing to avoid the possibility of saying the wrong thing.
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theszalmost 11 years ago
&quot;First, we want marginalized people to feel welcome, not like they have to defend their presence.&quot;<p>I believe this is wrong. Catering to marginalized people do not make those people less marginalized. In fact, it can make situation worse: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Mismatch-Affirmative-Students-Intended-Universities/dp/0465029965" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Mismatch-Affirmative-Students-Intended...</a><p>I think that one should provide insistence on some important criteria evaluation instead of banning something outright.<p>This is from basic psychology - provide positive idea to focus on.
ojbyrnealmost 11 years ago
I thought the significant absence of &quot;age-ism&quot; in the lists of biases to be a somewhat unsubtle &quot;-ism.&quot; Because, you know old white men can&#x27;t be the victim of bias, they&#x27;re the enemy.
j-malmost 11 years ago
Good God, this is why I changed my OkCupid profile to omit the fact that I work at a tech startup.<p>A bit dishonest, to be sure, but I just want to have a chance to demonstrate in person that I&#x27;m not the kind of insensitive, entitled dickbag that makes comments like the ones in this thread.<p>Downvote away, guys, because hey, I&#x27;m engaging in some SHAMING here. Frankly, you <i>should</i> be ashamed of yourselves.
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GFK_of_xmaspastalmost 11 years ago
Seems to me that if you say something racist&#x2F;sexist&#x2F;homophobic&#x2F;transphobic&#x2F;etc, then there are a couple possibilities.<p>Either (a) you meant it or (b) you didn&#x27;t mean it. If (b), a gentle nudge from a Hacker School pal is good, in the same sense of a friend telling me my fly is open. If (a), well, fuck you.
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pessimizeralmost 11 years ago
This is an impossible rule to enforce, even lightly, when large portions of the population don&#x27;t even recognize that those classes of prejudice exist, <i>especially</i> within them or their friends, their family (except their grandparents, which I hear about a lot), their class, their culture, or even their country.<p>As everybody knows on the internet: <i>The real bigotry is pointing out bigotry.</i><p>A real solution is to have an opinion as an organization about specific classes of offense, and a process to deal with them. Not saying what an &quot;-ism&quot; is seems like the opposite of that plan. Instead of creating a minefield, build a path. Kick out anyone who doesn&#x27;t follow it after having been warned.<p>Will you be reprimanded for saying something about Libertarians? If not, how about Democrats or Republicans? If not, how about war spending, religion, oil pipelines, or Social Security? Be specific about what the policy prohibits, and why the organization has drawn its particular line.
pbreitalmost 11 years ago
Really, there has to be a rule about not debating what an &quot;-ism&quot; is?? This seems a little much for a coding seminar. How about &quot;Don&#x27;t be a Jerk&quot; or nothing at all.
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lackbeardalmost 11 years ago
It seems almost abusive to foster an environment wherein one can accuse another openly but that other cannot respond openly.
PeterGriffinalmost 11 years ago
I&#x27;m sorry, but I&#x27;m starting to get a bit sick of Hacker Schools constant whining about rules.<p>If you want to encourage a specific culture you do this by starting with a small set of people who have this culture in their bones, then growing <i>slowly</i> and assimilating more people into that culture, addressing deviations <i>swiftly</i> and letting people get back to their work afterwards, without skipping a beat.<p>Not by writing manuals, and then stressing everyone with looooong, reaaaaally long and exhausting &quot;we need to talk&quot; style posts, where we hold hands, talk about how it&#x27;s so difficult to open your mouth and say something that&#x27;s not offensive, and how we&#x27;re far from perfect, and in fact, we&#x27;re all sinners.<p>It&#x27;s not that the intent is wrong. But this way of going about it is <i>so extremely taxing</i> on everybody, creating an atmosphere where everything people say is judged on the &quot;-isms&quot; scale.<p>It means when you talk, you&#x27;re terrified of what you&#x27;re saying.<p>When you listen, you listen for someone to say something so you can point your finger at them.
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jordighalmost 11 years ago
Mostly unrelated, but I wanted to say that I really enjoyed Kaptur&#x27;s analysis of Python&#x27;s import statement during this year&#x27;s Pycon:<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS5kXzbsLLQ" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=aS5kXzbsLLQ</a>
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wmjalmost 11 years ago
The right to accuse someone without giving the accused the right to self defense is most certainly not a subtle -ism.<p>It&#x27;s fascism.