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Do Software Engineers Get Enough Respect?

30 pointsby kedaalmost 11 years ago

7 comments

mcmancinialmost 11 years ago
If we&#x27;re talking about someone that passed the software engineering PE, then yes, I think they get plenty of (well-deserved) respect. I&#x27;m guessing that&#x27;s not whom the article is referring to however...<p>I met a lot of &quot;software engineers&quot; that think their mad coding skills are singularly notable or worthy of respect in business. They&#x27;re wrong. Technical ability is but one aspect of business. The developers who get that, who have other business skills and&#x2F;or are willing to learn other business skills I greatly respect and value. A developer who is competent at coding and has one of good communication skills, project management skills, interpersonal and conflict resolution skills, is of much greater value to me than a developer who is excellent at coding and mediocre elsewhere.
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ianbickingalmost 11 years ago
&gt; [As a managerial candidate] the CEO talked to Bill as an equal, not as a paternalistic, bullshitting, “this is good for your career” authority figure. There was a tone of equality that a software engineer would never get from the CEO of a 100-person tech company.<p>As I&#x27;ve gotten older I&#x27;ve learned people often interact with me the way I expect them to. If I expect them to be patronizing while I am submissive, I will be shy and withdrawn and the person will try to move on from the conversation, often in a way I will find patronizing (especially because I will compare their responses not to what I said, but to what I wanted to say).<p>Similarly if I interact with someone as an equal they will respond in kind.<p>Managers are more likely to have figured this out too (if they are any good), while engineers are often quite poor at this.
FLUX-YOUalmost 11 years ago
&gt;as a class, we are downtrodden, disrespected, and disenfranchised?<p>Oh, please. If any of you ever want to know what this <i>actually</i> feels like, take a job in retail, customer service, food prep, or low-level hospitality. There are many more jobs out of the limelight that are underpaid and under-respected (in the USA, which is my perspective) and take just as much of a toll on you as building a ridiculous system to please some suits to make the thingamajig do the fancy voodoo.<p>Should engineers get more respect? That&#x27;s a valid and fair question, and companies will pay more respect or start seeing loss when your core team leaves.<p>But don&#x27;t play this off like you&#x27;re some kind of victim in life. At the very least this is just terrible word choice to describe the problem.
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angersockalmost 11 years ago
A lot of the problem is the sort of Morlock&#x2F;wizard reputation engineers have built for themselves--we are the magic fingers that make the magical machines work, and woe be unto those who would pry into our secrets. We make a bunch of theatrics about learning to program and code, but in doing so only cement in the notion that it is somehow an unnatural act, not the logical extension of communication and problem-solving we all know it to be.<p>So, of course, we&#x27;re an <i>other</i>--and in a business sense, that means we&#x27;re less likely to be brought in for business decisions and less likely to be trusted when we give feedback and honestly less likely (due to time spent with an orderly worldview and fairly deterministic systems) to have useful perspectives on how to do conduct sales or marketing.<p>And that sort of thing means that, when it&#x27;s time to talk equity or raises or whatever, we&#x27;re at a disadvantage: we don&#x27;t even see ourselves as normal employees subject to the same progress of Labor that everyone else at a company might enjoy, and they see us as magical unicorns that get treated differently (and can be taken advantage of). You&#x27;ll note in my language here a strong us-vs-them streak, which somewhat underscores my point.<p>I think one of the biggest issues of respect is that there is something different about writing software than making physical things on an assembly line: if I write, in three months, a VBA&#x2F;Access line-of-business package that the folks sell for the next four years unchanged, I feel that I deserve a different sort of compensation than if I did phone support&#x2F;data-entry for the same functionality for those same four years.<p>I think part of the issue is that we understand that, if well done, software can be reproduced for free and yield dividends far out of proportion to the invested effort: as such, it seems only right that we take a more equity-focused approach. At the same time, because we are an &quot;other&quot;, we&#x27;re less likely to be trusted with that sort of situation (a problem I face even now at my current company).<p>Lastly, we have a sort of weird ongoing psychic trauma as we work on these things--we feel the effect of every hack put in to make a deadline, every corner cut to satisfy a weird business use case, and every test left unwritten because goddamnitthishastobedonebyFridaythatsthelaunchday. It&#x27;s a level of madness that, if you&#x27;re not an engineer, you don&#x27;t appreciate...and then you wonder why your engineers start jumping ship and you can&#x27;t find new or good coders.
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jasodealmost 11 years ago
&gt;Whereas in fact any engineer worth her salt will tell you that she makes business decisions daily–albeit on the micro not macro level–because she has to in order to get the job done. Exactly how long should this database field be? And of what datatype? How and where should it be validated? How do we handle all of the edge cases? These are in fact business decisions, and we make them,<p>I would suggest that software programmers <i>do not adopt</i> that mode of thought unless they want to be disrespected by business people. Even with the author&#x27;s qualification of &quot;micro-&quot; as in micro-business decisions, it still does not make the statement respectable.<p>I say this as a someone who&#x27;s been on the business side <i>and</i> the hardcore software programming side. I think other engineering-entrepreneurs sympathetic towards programmers would also be dismissive of such proclamations trying to glamorize &quot;VARCHAR(30) vs VARCHAR(40)&quot; as a &quot;business decision&quot;.<p>If software programmers want to be viewed as key business people, they have to make <i>real</i> business decisions and not dress up or redefine programming thoughts as &quot;business decisions&quot;.
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andyidsingaalmost 11 years ago
i followed the link to the original article ..then stopped reading it when i got to: &quot;...changing Staff Software Engineer to Director didn’t feel dishonest, &quot;<p>looks like it was a game of manipulation...
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bfwialmost 11 years ago
Did the author use one of his own tweets as source material?