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Beyond Light Table

288 pointsby dahjelleover 10 years ago

30 comments

scrollawayover 10 years ago
The &quot;And Light Table&quot; section leaves a lot to be desired. I get that it&#x27;s not abandoned but development.. used to be active on it and now?<p>I mean Light Table is a great IDE but it just needs so much done. It feels like 95% complete in every corner. The vim keybindings are buggy, Python plugin lacks proper virtualenv&#x2F;custom python support, performance is not quite there either... I forget all the issues I encountered back when I used it but there has been very few releases since and it&#x27;s super concerning to just see what was once an extremely active project slowly go in maintenance mode.<p>Please, quell my fears. You guys put together an amazing Kickstarter and used to put out so much in terms of updates and feature updates; I don&#x27;t see that anymore.<p>With all that said, best of luck with Eve, sounds awesome.<p>... Edit: I think these graphs are pretty telling. <a href="https://github.com/LightTable/LightTable/graphs/code-frequency" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;LightTable&#x2F;LightTable&#x2F;graphs&#x2F;code-frequen...</a>
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dragonwriterover 10 years ago
&gt; Imagine a world where everyone has access to computation without having to become a professional programmer - where a scientist doesn’t have to rely on the one person in the lab who knows python, where a child could come up with an idea for a game and build it in a couple of weekends, where your computer can help you organize and plan your wedding&#x2F;vacation&#x2F;business.<p>This seems to misunderstand fundamentally what it means to be a professional programmer. Knowing some programming language isn&#x27;t it, its a mode of thinking and analysis. I think that with programming things get confused in people&#x27;s minds because there is less of a clear <i>professional</i> distinction between construction and design than in physical engineering, but learning languages and syntax is the <i>trivial</i> part of programming already. Eliminating the <i>hard</i> part of the requirement to become a professional programmer is an AI complete problem, because it means you are getting the computer to do your thinking for you.<p>Many people who try to make programming better starts out with tools like IDEs or analysis tools, maybe proceeds to actual new languages, and ends up tilting at the windmill of transforming programming by replacing it with something that eliminates the need for professional programmers entirely -- and while we tend to get useful tools out of the other step, that last one is pretty consistently a place where we get vague hopes and pretty demos and, if anything of lasting use, salvaged pieces that end up as analysis, etc., tools for professional programmers.<p>I&#x27;m not saying this isn&#x27;t interesting or that I don&#x27;t want to see where it goes, but the description provided of both the goal and how the people promising they can deliver it have &quot;found the way&quot; by &quot;studying the past and revisiting some of the foundational ideas in computing&quot; is something I&#x27;ve heard from some group or another every few years for the last several decades. What I don&#x27;t see is why this time is different.
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EvanMillerover 10 years ago
The vision here is noble, and I applaud what Chris has done with Light Table, but based on the discussion here, I think the Eve team is setting themselves up for disappointment.<p>1. By bringing investors on board, and promising Hacker News they&#x27;re going to change the world, they&#x27;re basically asking to be stressed out all the time. This is not conducive to innovation.<p>2. There&#x27;s a fundamental tension between creating something usable by Joe in accounting and something that is cutting-edge from a technical perspective (highly concurrent etc). 90% of line-of-business programs use less than 10% of CPU, and approximately 0% need high concurrency. Joe in accounting is not going to build the next WhatsApp, and every moment you spend figuring out multi-core whatever, you&#x27;re not thinking about how to help Joe make his Cash Flow Prediction Tool look slick.<p>3. From a marketing perspective, creating a new category of software is an enormously difficult undertaking. There are two related problems here:<p>A. You have to find potential customers. Because nothing like Eve exists, the market does not exist. I.e. the world&#x27;s &quot;creators&quot; don&#x27;t all go to the same conferences, visit the same websites, and hang out in the same IRC channels. Light Table at least was addressing an existing market, i.e. &quot;programmers who use X&#x2F;Y&#x2F;Z&quot;, so you could actually <i>find</i> customers, and they could tell their programmer friends about it.<p>B. After you find potential customers, you have to educate them, i.e. explain the potential benefits and teach them how to use the darn thing. This requires a major investment from both you and from your interested customers. It is much, much easier to sell something that relieves the customer&#x27;s pain than something that promises him &quot;superpowers&quot;. 95% of &quot;creators&quot; have only vague and incorrect notions about programming, so you&#x27;ll have a hell of a time explaining the product. Let&#x27;s say you want to target Joe in accounting: What will the advertisement actually say? &quot;Do you miss VB6?&quot;<p>4. The fact that the LT team is giving up on Light Table when it&#x27;s still the proverbial &quot;couple of guys&quot; is not a good sign. From a marketing perspective, Light Table had every advantage in the world: tons of publicity &#x2F; viral videos, a clearly defined market, and an exciting product that got people talking. The fact that they&#x27;re throwing in the towel tells me, well, they quit too early, and they&#x27;ll quit on Eve when the going gets tough.<p>To be more specific, I think Chris&#x27;s fears about the market for Light Table are totally unfounded. To wit:<p>* &quot;The competition has millions of man-hours invested&quot;. Who cares? On a day-to-day basis I execute maybe 3% of the code paths in my editor. In my view, Light Table is a classic opportunity to offer 10% of the functionality of the bloated competition but really knock that 10% out of the park. Look at e.g. Pixelmator versus Photoshop or [toot toot] Wizard versus SPSS.<p>* &quot;Programmers don&#x27;t pay for software&quot;. I&#x27;m sorry, but this is a poor excuse, and if I were your drill sergeant, and this were an 80s movie, I&#x27;d be screaming in your face right now. Programmers are a wealthy and growing segment. They&#x27;ll pay for stuff if it helps them get their job done (GitHub, TextMate, books, conferences, heck Visual Studio). Not only that, with the product&#x27;s positioning, you have a great opportunity to sell to people who want to be programmers, the &quot;ski pants&quot; market, if you will. If you read the comments in this thread, you&#x27;ll notice that your users are complaining about the Light Table&#x27;s lack of polish and they clearly recognize the need to pay someone to provide that polish.<p>In sum, I think the LT team should have worked themselves into a crying, bleeding, starving mess to make Light Table a commercial success, and then pursued bigger ideas once they had the business experience under their belt. Even if it took a few years, they&#x27;d be in a much better position both financially and psychologically to tackle a Grand New World-Changing Product once they had the routine down from their Small Life-Changing Editor.<p>As an indie-app-developer-whatever myself, I would kill for the kind of publicity and market opportunity that Light Table had. I wish Chris &amp; Co. all the best with Eve, and I truly hope they succeed. But based on what I&#x27;m reading, I don&#x27;t think they don&#x27;t deserve to.
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josephwegnerover 10 years ago
The description of Eve seems pretty vague, which I&#x27;m sure is intentional, but it&#x27;d be nice to get a bit of clarification.<p>It sounds like Eve will essentially be a visual programming language, similar to the many others that have come across Hacker News.<p>Chris - is Eve a visual programming language? If so, what makes it better than all the others that have tried and failed?
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ibdknoxover 10 years ago
We&#x27;ve been waiting to announce the news for a while now. Can&#x27;t tell you how happy we are to finally get it out.<p>We&#x27;re tremendously excited about the potential we have with Eve and everyone we&#x27;ve talked to about it so far leaves with their head reeling. There&#x27;s been an undercurrent brewing in the programming community that we&#x27;re approaching a sort of transformational point in the way software ends up built. We hope to be part of that transformation.<p>I don&#x27;t talk about it a ton in the post, but Eve isn&#x27;t just about giving the Excel generation a seat at the table, but it&#x27;s also explicitly designed to get us back to what we do best: solving problems. There are some pretty amazing properties that fall out of simplifying things as much as we have: concurrent by default, a real shot at auto-parallelization, a debugger that can tell you when, why, and how a value came to be, diffs not of code but of the output, the chance for true real-time collaboration on software, introspection into <i>every</i> part of the system, and so on. We&#x27;ll be talking more about how it works over the next couple of months, but I can promise you now: there&#x27;s some exciting stuff coming for all of us.<p>As always, in the interest of sharing with the community who helped us get here, I&#x27;m happy to answer any questions!
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fitchbover 10 years ago
Chris: I&#x27;ve been following your work since I backed LightTable on Kickstarter. I just want to say congratulations and keep on truckin&#x27;.<p>I&#x27;ve been programming professionally for about three years. When I got my first job, I spent <i>days</i> setting up ruby&#x2F;rails&#x2F;zsh&#x2F;vim&#x2F;git. I was seriously dumbfounded. I could not believe that programmers (in 2011) actually worked this way. And I was even more perplexed that the main tools for reasoning about my code were print statements, browser reloading, and unit tests (so, so many unit tests). This is &quot;the pain we forgot&quot;, except it&#x27;s recent enough that I&#x27;ve never forgotten it.<p>Thanks for your work. I&#x27;m looking forward to a better programming for my kids. And hope to support any way I can.
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karmajunkieover 10 years ago
I really do hope these guys are able to accomplish their goal, but I remain skeptical. We&#x27;ve seen efforts from folks like Google and MIT down to small companies trying to solve this &quot;problem&quot;, when it seems to me that the underlying reality is simply that software is hard. Layer abstractions over it if you must, but at the end of the day those will only get the layperson over the hump of trivial problems, leaving one disillusioned when the tool is unable to realize loftier goals.
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manifestsilenceover 10 years ago
As a fairly new (4 years) programmer with an avid interest in comparative language features and tooling, this looks like the direction that every cool new thing I&#x27;ve read about or attempted to create myself seems to be going. The LISPers have always been there, preaching freedom from syntax and a focus on semantics, but it has never made it into a readable form for your average new aspiring programmer.<p>I keep thinking what we need is for the structure of programs to be something saner than the one-dimensional byte stream that we keep pretending programs aren&#x27;t by splitting them into lines, functions, classes, and files. Tables aren&#x27;t fundamentally different than those other constructs, in the same sense that programming languages aren&#x27;t fundamentally different from each other - BF is Turing complete and all that. But usability and learning curve, as someone said on here, really matter, and tables have a far more clean and rigid structure than a mess of braces.<p>The most difficult problems in programming aren&#x27;t the low level algorithms, they&#x27;re the social problems along the lines of how do you involve large numbers of new programmers in a project without ruining it, or how do you empower users to create their own features without starting over and building a custom rules engine?
KobaQover 10 years ago
I&#x27;ll be excited when I see it.<p>Light Table was announced to change the way we&#x27;re writing code, too. But the execution didn&#x27;t quite match the vision.
todd8over 10 years ago
There is a temptation to think that programming isn&#x27;t that hard, that somehow we just need lighter shoes and we&#x27;ll run a four minute mile. I look forward to a better spreadsheet, but I don&#x27;t think it will revolutionize programming. Just tackling the spreadsheet though is a big enough, worthy enough, and valuable enough goal, I hope they succeed.<p>In the continuum of programming tasks, tasks best for spreadsheets are pretty far down the scale. But these tasks are very common and an improved tool could have a very big impact.<p>After grad school I did real time process control programming for semiconductor manufacturing. Complex machines, which couldn&#x27;t be slowed down, were programmed in assembly language and had many simultaneously moving parts, all under the control of software. Programming, done in assembly language, was a mess. It was hard, very hard, we had to build all of our own tools, including the operating system that ran on the minicomputer running our software. The mechanical engineers were very talented and built amazing machines, but they thought that the understood the &quot;hardware&quot; so they should be the ones to write the software to run it. Of course, this didn&#x27;t work out at all. It&#x27;s easy to believe that programming shouldn&#x27;t be that hard.<p>Computation can be intrinsically difficult in ways that new tools don&#x27;t help. Consider a simple problem like suffling a deck of cards. Having a tool that makes a shuffle easy to code doesn&#x27;t make it a fair or efficient shuffle. On the otherhand, most students of Computer Science would know the pitfalls of shuffling by the time they got through a couple of years of grad school. One can&#x27;t expect that even intelligent people will understand that the a fair shuffle has to pick one of the exactly N! possible shuffles with uniform probability and that the following loop doesn&#x27;t do it (for a number of reasons):<p><pre><code> (* Randomly rearrange each card *) for ctr := 1 to 52 do begin random_number := random(51)+1; tmp := card[random_number]; card[random_number] := card[ctr]; card[ctr] := tmp; end;</code></pre>
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jmagoonover 10 years ago
It seems like the hard part of programming is and always will be the problem solving part, and not the syntax memorization &#x2F; environment setup. Business leaders, at least where I work, are not programming due to the fact that they just don&#x27;t think computationally, not that they have to fiddle around with a DB connector.<p>I&#x27;m curious about the target audience and the drive to make programming &quot;easier&quot;. Sure--the tools can help, but it doesn&#x27;t necessarily help a user solve the problem correctly. Is the audience programmers? Is it for replacing programmers with software power users? Or am I totally missing the point, that this is a totally new way of solving problems in a language agnostic way?
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jcardenover 10 years ago
One can imagine a tremendous number of useful applications something like EVE would enable. Working in a top notch cancer research lab, I can think of several instances where an exceptionally talented lab biologist needs some computational work done but doesn&#x27;t have the slightest idea of how to get started. Hopefully, EVE will bring down some of those barriers and change this. This is exciting.
michaelsbradleyover 10 years ago
Chris, so you found some of Prof. Harel&#x27;s work interesting?<p><a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7489865" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=7489865</a><p>Or did you arrive at a use case for temporal logic from another avenue?<p>Congratulations, by the way, eve sounds exciting!
serve_yayover 10 years ago
At some point, somebody will succeed in some real fashion with a tool that allows non-programmers to make software (for real, not baby software). And after that I&#x27;ll just go live in the woods, I guess. The cost of my labor will go from a lot to basically zero.<p>Still, even though their goal (and the goal of similar projects) is my obsolescence, I wish them luck. It will probably be a massive overall good. But it&#x27;s also a reason why I think all the current frenetic activity about teaching more people to program will end up being the wrong thing.
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GuiAover 10 years ago
Interesting move. I&#x27;ve just read Peter Thiel&#x27;s startup notes, and one point he&#x27;s adamant about is to build your product as a monopoly for a small market (this is in no way new advice, but since I just finished his book his formulation is the most recent one in my head). E.g. Facebook and Harvard students, AirBnB and housing for conferences, etc. If you can&#x27;t get to mass adoption in a small niche, how are you going to scale it up? Additionally, your product has to be at least an order of magnitude better than what the niche already uses (e.g. Facebook was an order of magnitude better than Harvard&#x27;s static face book).<p>I have a hard time seeing what small niche Eve will dominate, and how it&#x27;s at least 10x better than any existing solution. Looking at the examples they give:<p><i>&gt; a scientist doesn’t have to rely on the one person in the lab who knows python</i><p>Scientist these days pretty much have to pick up a programming language (Python, R, Matlab, etc.) throughout their undergrad&#x2F;early grad studies. If you&#x27;re going to target that niche, not only are you fighting against the huge investment professors and labs have made in existing tools (along with the small libraries&#x2F;frameworks they built themselves), but you also have to provide an equivalent quality ecosystem for the weird data formats some very specific niches use, for the lab equipment, and so on. If you wanted to deliver a 10x improvement on the existing state of computation in research labs, you&#x27;d have to spend a lot of time focusing on exclusively that.<p><i>&gt; a child could come up with an idea for a game and build it in a couple of weekends</i><p>They already can, using Scratch or the myriad similar tools available which will probably remain better because they were designed with game design in mind.<p><i>&gt; your computer can help you organize and plan your wedding&#x2F;vacation&#x2F;business.</i><p>People already use MS Office, Google Docs, etc. for these tasks. Unless Eve brings a 10x improvement to those tools, how can they ever hope to displace them? My dad has been using the same version of Excel for the past 10 years, I have a hard time imagining people like him switching over.<p>In his lectures, Peter Thiel spends some time talking about all the solar startups that emerged more or less at the same time in the late 2000s, only to fail miserably. While the buzz and excitement for solar power companies was there, in reality they could not deliver on what startups need to deliver to thrive: a product solving a real problem for a niche market that&#x27;s at least 10x better than the existing solution in place. I feel like we&#x27;re in a similar space with all those &quot;learn to code&quot; and &quot;new programming tools&quot; companies that have been steadily emerging.<p>No doubt, the CS academic and HCI researcher that I am is excited by Eve- I&#x27;m sure they&#x27;ve done their research and that it would be a really neat product. The entrepreneur in me is however extremely doubtful.
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MoosePirateover 10 years ago
I have high hopes for this area. There are a huge amount of ad-hoc problems that are today solved most easily by throwing together an Excel file, even for a very competent programmer. There is currently no faster way to manipulate and do small scale programming on data. For decision analysis and modeling, you go straight from excel to a full-blown program, without any other compelling options.<p>A product with some interesting ideas in this area is Calca: <a href="http://calca.io/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;calca.io&#x2F;</a>
oillioover 10 years ago
I am a bit disappointed about Light Table, though it was obviously coming.<p>Good luck with Eve. I am sure you have read it already, but the paper &quot;Out Of The Tar Pit&quot; by Ben Moseley and Peter Marks might be of interest.<p><a href="http://shaffner.us/cs/papers/tarpit.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;shaffner.us&#x2F;cs&#x2F;papers&#x2F;tarpit.pdf</a><p>The first half is pretty dry. Around Section 7 they get into describing a non-standard way to look at application design. Their language design ideas might fit well with the goals of Eve.
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hmeover 10 years ago
Anything to do with Aurora ? <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6iUm_Cqx2s" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=L6iUm_Cqx2s</a>
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bri3dover 10 years ago
How does Eve compare and relate to similar, older attempts to use spreadsheets as a visual programming metaphor, like Forms&#x2F;3? ftp:&#x2F;&#x2F;ftp.cs.orst.edu&#x2F;pub&#x2F;burnett&#x2F;ForJFP&#x2F;JFP.fordistrib.pdf<p>It seems like the interaction between spreadsheets and programming is an oft-explored area - it will be interesting to see what this evolution brings.
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Luytover 10 years ago
I can&#x27;t help reading &#x27;Eve Online&#x27; everytime I read &#x27;Eve&#x27;. I guess it&#x27;s a time-space deformation.
sdegutisover 10 years ago
Eve&#x27;s goal is to completely simplify and reshape computer programming at large? Oh. Well, best of luck to you.
Confusionover 10 years ago
<p><pre><code> Imagine a world where everyone has access to computation without having to become a [..] programmer </code></pre> Imagine a world where everyone has access to basic arithmetic, without having to know how to use pen and paper to calculate and without having to how to operate a calculator.
aabajianover 10 years ago
&quot;...doesn’t have to rely on the one person in the lab who knows python&quot;<p>I&#x27;m a long term Java programmer who recently learned Python. Python is sensational. We should encourage everyone to know a language like Python, not pass it off as the domain of &quot;professional programmers&quot;.
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paymetodreamover 10 years ago
Admirably. As there is a lot of money in the table I would like to be paid for dreaming. Nothing is impossible, but at this level pay me beforehand.
tolmaskyover 10 years ago
A story about the initial introduction of computers to the lab my dad worked at, with no particular concrete conclusion:<p>My father is a microbiologist. When he started his postdoc at OHSU, they actually had a information artist <i>guy</i> in the department (apologies, I have no idea what the profession&#x27;s name actually is). When you were writing a paper, you&#x27;d go to the graphics office&#x2F;dept&#x2F;whatever and give him your data, which he&#x27;d then lay out in some huge post board or something, then take a picture of it and shrink it down. Clearly much more time consuming than what Excel can accomplish for you now. I think around that same time they were just starting to get computers installed everywhere. By the time my dad left OHSU a few years later, this person was working in the mail room, his profession no longer existed (or at least wasn&#x27;t particularly employable anymore). Everyone was now making their own charts, graphs, visualizations or what-have-you using their computers.<p>I, being a programmer, always thought about this as a success story. Interestingly enough, my dad has a different take on it. His perspective is that he used to be a scientist, now he&#x27;s a scientist and a shitty artist. The way he sees it, its now his responsibility to learn this myriad of tools (photoshop, illustrator, <i>Canvas</i> hehe), whereas before his sole focus was more so on &quot;the science&quot;. I certainly see it on my end, he&#x27;s much better at Photoshop than I am, and at the same time knows a bit of HTML to get by, etc etc. However the reality isn&#x27;t that the time to make these graphics has magically dropped to zero, its just that is become <i>simple enough</i> to not justify having an entire art department handling it, but hard enough to be annoying to him. He certainly spends a lot of time being angry at Photoshop now, which seems to be perfectly acceptable for a professional designer, but a strange consequence of being a scientist. Another result is that you now have someone not trained in data visualization trying to express his findings (vs possibly having someone who has a degree in that making suggestions about how to best present it).<p>Its interesting to try to reconcile these results. Its quite possible that there is no lesson here and its simply a spectrum of trade offs, no perfect scenario. Certainly everyone agrees Microsoft Word is a clear net positive, maybe visualization is just less of a win. Or maybe this is just because we are in an intermediate step, at some point things will be <i>so easy</i> that you 1) don&#x27;t need a separate department, 2) it takes almost no time and 3) it inspires you to create really good visualizations without having much background in that. Who knows.<p>On the other hand some people would argue that this is actually displaying a deeper educational problem, where if there was more interdisciplinary teaching, then every scientist would have some grasp of data visualization and then its just a matter of having a better Photoshop. As time goes on I become more and more skeptical of this approach however. It seems strange to &quot;empower&quot; people when you are actually burdening them with additional responsibility. Since you <i>can</i> do everything yourself, it now becomes &quot;your fault&quot; for not being good at everything.
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vannevarover 10 years ago
Light Table failed because it was overly ambitious. So the response is to start a new, vastly more ambitious project?
CmonDevover 10 years ago
&quot;Light Table will continue to go on strong.&quot;<p>Sure.
jryan49over 10 years ago
Would you guys be hiring remote workers?
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giancarlostoroover 10 years ago
Everyone is having all the fun in the other side of the country, and I&#x27;m stuck in Disney World missing out. Sad stuff.
throwaway420over 10 years ago
I hope Light Table doesn&#x27;t get essentially abandoned, despite throwing in a final pity paragraph about it not being so. There haven&#x27;t been any new Light Table updates recently and that&#x27;s disappointing. It&#x27;s not unusable as is, but it&#x27;s lacking that last 20% of refinement and polish and perfect documentation and other things that makes good software into great software.
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