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Some thoughts on asking for a raise

115 pointsby whbkover 10 years ago

14 comments

spatulonover 10 years ago
I recently negotiated a significant raise with my boss. Some of the main points I made to him were:<p>1) That I&#x27;m the de facto lead engineer on a product that&#x27;s making €X million per year while also strategically important for the company. i.e. I&#x27;m valuable to the company and would appreciate them acknowledging that via the well-understood language of money.<p>2) That my raise would be small change to the company in the grand scheme of things.<p>3) That I could expect to walk into a different job at the salary I was asking my boss for, and have been considering doing so.<p>4) That if I left, he&#x27;d expect to pay an equivalently experienced replacement a similar amount, while also suffering the pain of upheaval on a small development team.<p>So I tried to keep it balanced between reasons why it would be good for both me and the company to give me the raise, while leaving him clear about the consequences of not doing so.<p>Note that I didn&#x27;t have a job offer from elsewhere to use as leverage, but in my case the threat of leaving seemed to concern him sufficiently (recruiting good developers is pretty tough in northern England) that it worked almost as well. However, it still left me in a weak position when he asked me for a number.<p>I should also note that I was extremely nervous about championing myself so overtly, and it didn&#x27;t come naturally at all (we programmers are excessively meek at times). I&#x27;m happy to report that none of the disastrous consequences I&#x27;d imagined in my head came to fruition, and my boss reacted extremely positively.
asgard1024over 10 years ago
The problem I see with the article is that it focuses on rationality of monetary payment and ignores wider perspective of human thinking, which includes fairness, for example.<p>I never had to ask for raise at my job (for several years), but with the change of my boss, it looks like I will have to. I&#x27;m actually pretty happy with the money; what I more concerned about is the feeling of being treated unfairly.<p>My boss, unlike me, has all the information, so he can decide to treat people around him fairly. If he does not, and makes these decisions based on what people ask him, then he is certainly not being fair. Then, why on Earth should I want to work for a person like that? Doesn&#x27;t that kill motivation too?<p>In other words, what&#x27;s wrong with wanting to stay humble about your work (there are many articles that ask engineers to be exactly that, and it&#x27;s certainly a great characteristic for a coworker), but at the same time, demand fair treatment?
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Kenjiover 10 years ago
That was a great read. An insightful piece.<p>In my eyes, this is the most important line: &quot;And finally, here is one thing NEVER to do when asking for more money. Never ask for it nor justify it because of your need.&quot; That does not just apply to money. This behaviour is nothing but begging and playing on emotions. Professional people will look right through it.
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SixSigmaover 10 years ago
In MIT&#x27;s book [1] on negotiation strategy they suggest that instead of bartering on a figure one should negotiate a way of determining the figure. That way you don&#x27;t have a numerical anchor and you also have a mechanism for the future.<p>[1] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getting_to_Yes" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Getting_to_Yes</a>
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joshyeagerover 10 years ago
The team at Manager Tools&#x2F;Career Tools did a great series on this topic. They go into the details of how to figure out what your market rate is, how to build your case, and how to present it.<p><a href="http://www.manager-tools.com/2013/12/when-ask-a-pay-rise" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.manager-tools.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;12&#x2F;when-ask-a-pay-rise</a> <a href="http://www.manager-tools.com/2014/04/how-ask-a-raise-researching-comparable-pay" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.manager-tools.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;04&#x2F;how-ask-a-raise-researc...</a> <a href="http://www.manager-tools.com/2014/04/how-ask-a-raise-cost-living" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.manager-tools.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;04&#x2F;how-ask-a-raise-cost-li...</a> <a href="http://www.manager-tools.com/2014/05/how-ask-a-raise-making-ask" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.manager-tools.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;05&#x2F;how-ask-a-raise-making-...</a>
cheepinover 10 years ago
&gt; I also believe most employers are not trying to screw you or underpay you.<p>This is something I hear contradicted here quite a bit. As someone who hasn&#x27;t been in the industry a long time, I&#x27;m interested in hearing more about why this is or isn&#x27;t true.
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paul9290over 10 years ago
Use recruiters to get the best deal.<p>If your a web designer, developer or software engineer I&#x27;m sure your getting one recruiter a day to a week offering you X job.<p>A lot of ppl don&#x27;t like to deal with recruiters but for me I&#x27;m flattered and think I don&#x27;t need them now they need me. Thus when they ask how much I seek for their opportunity I significantly jack up my rate. Doing this has led from going from one company(every 2 years) to another each time making significantly more money. Though one company I worked for learned I was going to take a better offer and matched it.
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nnessover 10 years ago
I think a rookie mistake that gets made is to argue that they should be paid based on the marked rate.<p>Knowing what the going rate is is an important base for understanding the direction in which your career will develop, and what you should expect in remuneration as it develops. But, I feel it is foolish to go into that negotiation and say &quot;salary averages say I should earn X, therefore, pay me X.&quot;<p>What you may end up finding is that if you ask for market rate, you&#x27;ll hear &quot;if you can fetch that in the market, go to the market.&quot; Market rates are an average, a very broad average, that does not always take into account your geography, your industry and any specialisation you have. Some companies will value more, some less.<p>A better way to approach that discussion is to understand your remuneration is based on some contractual period, namely 12 months. What you need to do is work with your employer to set how those next 12 months should be valued. It&#x27;s all about trajectory. If you&#x27;ve had a few years of positive development, it should be an easy case to make that the trend will continue upwards.<p>It&#x27;s also an interesting test, if you can&#x27;t see how your next year will provide increase value to the organisation, it may show early signs of changes that are about to occur internally. That said, if you have an actual offer, that&#x27;s a different discussion.
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baneover 10 years ago
I remember my first full-time salaried job. I had just graduated college and before that had been working hourly part-time and internships and was thrilled moving onto a salaried full-time position calculated at basically the same rate as what I had been earning.<p>About a year into the job I accidentally came across a piece of private paperwork a less experienced co-worker left on the shared printer that had her salary on it. It was almost twice what I was making!<p>I started a campaign to fix this discrepancy. I started keeping track of every task I performed, even little one-off tasks, and <i>also</i> the impact that completion of that task had. I often found that the tiny half-hour one-off tasks I was taking care of without a second thought were generating huge returns on efficiency for my company. A simple script that turned a 40 hour a week copy-and-past data entry job that was eating into corporate overhead into a 30 second run-once-a-week thing was freeing up an employee to work on higher billable hour tasks. I was not only saving the company money, but making it money by pinpointing and automating problems in their business processes.<p>The next evaluation period I walked in with a 20 page print out of every task I had worked on in the last year, what it was, and how it had impact on the company&#x27;s bottom-line. I asked for as big of a pay raise as company policy would allow.<p>It worked, and it continues to work everywhere I go. Having an irrefutable record of your value to the company makes it impossible for them to turn you down. And when they do, you now have an excellent archive to use for resume filler when you go looking for your next job.<p>Things I never do:<p>- threaten to go somewhere else if they don&#x27;t give me the raise, this is implicit. If they don&#x27;t give it to you, leave the company. Simple as that. No threats. Managers don&#x27;t like it and it&#x27;s just as likely to backfire on you. I guarantee they&#x27;ll muddle along somehow without you.<p>- get upset, what employees are paid is a complex business that you can only ever really understand when you&#x27;re in the position to be paying them. Sometimes you&#x27;ll end up getting paid less than an employee in a similar position. It sucks, but sometimes there&#x27;s reasons for it that you aren&#x27;t privy to. Don&#x27;t compare your pay to others too much, compare it to yourself and where you want to be.<p>- demand pay that exceeds what you should be making in that position in that industry. It sucks, but if you work phone tech support or are a receptionist, you&#x27;re not going to be making $250k&#x2F;yr. If you want to make that kind of money, ask what the requirements are for that job then pursue them. Hold the company to that claim. When you fulfill those requirements, if they don&#x27;t pay-up, move on. Congratulations you are now qualified for a better job at a competitor.<p>- take a raise, then quit immediately. I feel this is a point of honor, if I make a big fuss and my manager goes through a lot of trouble to get a silver bullet for me, I feel like I&#x27;ve just made at least 12 month commitment to them. You&#x27;d be surprised at how important this has been for me career-wise many years later. I&#x27;ve had old managers who&#x27;ve hired me back at new companies (or give me open offers) just because I stuck around after they put their neck on the line for me, even when the work environment sucked. As a manager it can be difficult justifying huge percentage pay increases for your people (my 20 page list of completed tasks usually helped them significantly).<p>- ask for it based on need. &quot;I need to make more money to make my rent&quot;. I did this once, and my manager responded with, &quot;well you should live in a cheaper place&quot;. And that was the last time I tried that. Your company is not responsible for your personal spending habits, full stop.
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swombatover 10 years ago
&gt; <i>And finally, here is one thing NEVER to do when asking for more money. Never ask for it nor justify it because of your need. If you work for a for-profit entity, as most of us do, your need is completely irrelevant. While I can personally be hugely empathetic to your financial needs and hardships, I cannot justify increasing your compensation because of them — that is unfair to the company and to any coworker who puts in the same effort but walks away with less.</i><p>Interesting note on this... At GrantTree we&#x27;re (still in the early stages of) trying something different. Since all pay is open and we use something called the &quot;advice process&quot; to make decisions, to change their salaries people need to make an open proposal to the whole company, gather feedback, and then make a decision (note: they do not need to incorporate all or any of the feedback; we trust them to make the right decision).<p>With this in mind, the proposal is meant to cover 5 key angles:<p>1) What do I deserve?<p>2) What do I need?<p>3) What is the market rate for my role?<p>4) What can the company afford?<p>5) What is good for GrantTree?<p>We explicitly ask people to include their needs in this. They are people, they have needs - ignoring that is stupid, in my opinion. If we have someone on staff who is contributing greatly to the company but has high mortgage payments, and I pay them less because I have this other person who is contributing the same but has much lower monthly costs, and I pay the first the same as the second, I will lose the first because they can&#x27;t afford to keep this job.<p>Obviously we&#x27;re still experimenting with this (about 3 months in), but I think that considering the needs of the person is essential - particularly in a decision model where they make the decision anyway, so they will obviously be considering their own needs as part of the equation! But even if someone else was making the decision, considering the person&#x27;s needs is absolutely mandatory if you expect the person to also consider the company&#x27;s needs.<p>In other words, if you don&#x27;t care about their needs, why should they care about yours? &quot;Oh really, this has been a bad year so you don&#x27;t want to give me a pay raise even though my market rate has increased? Fuck you, I&#x27;m off.&quot;
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steven2012over 10 years ago
I think Nadella chose his words poorly, but I thought his gist was that &quot;I envision a time when people, both men or women, will not need to ask for raises because it will come naturally.&quot; I don&#x27;t&#x2F;can&#x27;t believe he is sexist in the sense that he thinks women should just sit back and wait for their paymasters to bestow a gift onto them.<p>That being said, the last person you can trust to give you a raise is your employer. I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s out of maliciousness, but it&#x27;s just reality.<p>It&#x27;s a rare boss that actually cares enough to guide you and to push you to make your career better, because that means they will be losing you. I&#x27;ve had 1 of those bosses, when I first came to Silicon Valley, and it affected how I look at things.<p>The rest of my bosses just want me to make their lives easier. They will pay me well and treat me well if I make their lives easier, ie. add new features, fix bugs, handle customer escalations, and I&#x27;m grateful for this because they&#x27;ve treated me very well.<p>But things like raises, career growth, it&#x27;s rare that managers think too much about this, because it&#x27;s precisely the type of thing that makes their life worse, because if you grow out of your current role, they will lose you.<p>The other part of this equation is that you need to be able to properly evaluate yourself. If you&#x27;re just average, then you deserve market rate, because you&#x27;re easily replaced. But 80% of all people think they are above average, which causes friction. If you&#x27;re really good, then you deserve higher-than market, but everyone else should get market.
pmoriciover 10 years ago
&quot;You owe it to yourself to know what your ‘market price’ is&quot;<p>The article provides fine high level advice but doesn&#x27;t get into how to get this &#x27;good data&#x27; on your market price. Is glassdoor good data? Because my general impression is that it is not very accurate and probably skews low. What are some other sources of this information?
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s0uthPaw88over 10 years ago
What I like about this article is that it points out that human capital is a marketplace. No matter what you perceive your value or worth to be, your worth in the marketplace is only what you can get someone else to compensate you for.<p>If you feel there is a discrepancy between what you are currently being compensated and what you are worth then it is your job get fair value for your skills. Either you prove your worth to your current employer or you find someone in the marketplace that is willing to pay the price you have set for your skills.
aceperryover 10 years ago
Great perspective and advice over Satya Nadella&#x27;s recent gaffe about advising women to not ask for a raise. Roizen&#x27;s article explains and examines some of the issues behind compensation and raises. She weaves in her own experiences to make the case that asking for a raise is one of the better things to do, from both the employees&#x27; and employers&#x27; perspective.
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