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The Programmer's Price: Want to hire a coding superstar? Call the agent

374 pointsby erooover 10 years ago

30 comments

mallyvaiover 10 years ago
I&#x27;m the lead engineer and founder of <a href="http://OfferLetter.io" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;OfferLetter.io</a> - We guide engineers (and designers and PMs) by helping them navigate the &quot;last-mile&quot; - that is, the offer selection&#x2F;negotiation process - in exchange for a fee from the candidates. (We got brief shoutout in the article along with Dave and our friends at HackMatch)<p>I want to specifically address 1) Sam Altman and 2) Chris Fry&#x27;s respective points about the problems with regards to models that align with the candidate more directly (like ours):<p>1) Much respect for Sam, but he&#x27;s dead wrong with respect to the &#x27;negative selection&#x27; problem - yes, good people have no problem finding work, but the key problem is that the <i>opportunity cost</i> remains phenomenally high for suboptimal decision making. We have actually worked with outstanding engineers who are <i>at YC portfolio companies</i>, simply because they wouldn&#x27;t have known how to get what they&#x27;re worth otherwise and push for more. And Sam is missing the point entirely with regards to worth - people in the industry are not getting paid based on their merit - not at all. The gender wage gap is perhaps the most stark example of this, but we see it, starkly, along many other demographic slices as well.<p>2) With respect to Chris Fry&#x27;s comments - I was actually <i>in Twitter&#x27;s eng org</i> when Chris raised the internal engineering referral bonus from 2.5k to 10k because the company wasn&#x27;t getting the volume of quality people it wanted. Chris is a really great guy, but I find his point about &quot;[at] Twitter, you get the best résumés on your desk already [via recruiting department, referrals, etc]&quot; somewhat misleading - there&#x27;s no way he would have raised the referral bonus as sharply as he did if he really felt that. In fact, there wouldn&#x27;t have to be an referral bonus structure at all. Twitter is wonderful, and I loved my time there, but even there we weren&#x27;t getting all the high-quality people we wanted.<p>[#plug: check out <a href="http://OfferLetter.io" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;OfferLetter.io</a> - we all deserve to get what we&#x27;re worth]
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latchover 10 years ago
Many companies claim that hiring is a top priority, but do little more than put up a JD in a couple places. They then complain about shortages.<p>You need to actively recruit talent, which means understanding what you&#x27;re looking for. Building nginx modules? Go through github and see who&#x27;s built an nginx module before. Do a google search for &quot;nginx module development&quot; and see where that leads. Then send out brief but targeted emails to people you sincerely want to join your team.<p>There&#x27;s a ton of developers who aren&#x27;t actively looking, but <i>presented</i> with the opportunity, they&#x27;ll jump. I don&#x27;t know a single developer who isn&#x27;t flattered and intrigued by a sincere cold call for employment from an actual company (they&#x27;re pretty easy to filter from agencies)<p>Second, money and location are a big deal. &quot;We can&#x27;t find developers&quot; really means &quot;We can&#x27;t find developers who want to work for this salary and&#x2F;or at this location.&quot; I remember not too long ago, our startup had a budget for 10 new developers, which we just couldn&#x27;t fill. Our CTO and CEO 100% refused to get 5 developers and pay them 2x. So instead we stayed 10 people short, for over a year, while &quot;hiring remains a top priority.&quot;<p>TL;DR - If hiring is important, spend the necessary time on it, don&#x27;t just pay it lip service.
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forrestthewoodsover 10 years ago
Those rates really don&#x27;t seem all that high. I mean 250 hour * 40 hours&#x2F;week * 50 weeks year = $500,000. That&#x27;s kind of a lot. Except then the article itself mentions employees getting a few million a year in stock from Facebook or Google.<p>I feel like there exists a market for getting start-ups launched on the right foot. Twelve weeks (480 hours) for $1,000,000 with a bonafide rockstar to get your concept not only up and running but well designed to be carried forward. Do you guys think people would pay that? If no, how much do you think people would spend?<p>If your idea is good and the work is good it would easily be worth it. Of course proving that you can deliver ahead of time is more than a little difficult.
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r0h1nover 10 years ago
Playing the devil&#x27;s advocate here, but why is the concept of free-agent developers who (a) command huge premiums, and (b) prefer working on short, intense sprints instead of with one employer, still not here yet?<p>I&#x27;m not saying 10X Management is an example, but why can&#x27;t individual programming be valued like, say, acting&#x2F;singing etc.?
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dansoover 10 years ago
I&#x27;ve never been a freelance developer so I don&#x27;t know what my rate would be...but I would really like to get some insight on what $200+&#x2F;hr web-development is like. I mean, what are the expectations versus a $50-developer?<p>For example, I could probably build in 10 hours a customized, nice-looking Twitter bootstrap Rails site with Stripe integration and deploy it onto EC2 and set up Capistrano to integrate with whatever existing Github flow they have...but then when it comes to building the admin...um...developing the admin from a technical standpoint is non-trivial, but developing it in such a way that it is hassle free from the client...How exactly does the developer do that, without extensive consultation time with the client? And what if their in-house developer (let&#x27;s pretend they have one who is competent) doesn&#x27;t have a workflow like I imagine a good workflow should be?<p>In other words, I&#x27;m having a hard time imagining what a rockstar developer could singlehandedly create that would be spectacular and would be something that that mortals can use and maintain on their own...but obviously that&#x27;s why I&#x27;m not a $200+&#x2F;hr freelance developer.
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tptacekover 10 years ago
<i>“Ballpark, for this role you’re talking a hundred and fifty to two hundred and fifty dollars an hour.”</i><p>So, standard market rate?
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ap22213over 10 years ago
It&#x27;s about time that high-end coders are getting the prices that they deserve. Many skilled coders aren&#x27;t skilled in the art of negotiation, and that ends up bringing down the market price for everyone. I&#x27;ve seen far too many highly-talented people getting roped into five-figure salaries, when they&#x27;d be more appropriately priced in the six or even seven figures.
gregjorover 10 years ago
10X client (freelancer) here. I&#x27;m the guy living in Thailand mentioned in the article. Let me add to a few of the comments here. I am not writing on behalf of 10X, these are my own opinions.<p><i>I would think that people hiring would like potential hires to be unrepresented. An un-represented developer is going to be cheaper. (chrisbennet)</i><p>Price is just one factor. If I charge twice as much as someone else but I can solve the customer&#x27;s problem in one-fourth the time, the customer saves money. Customers are usually focused on solving business problems within their budget and schedule, not just on hourly rates.<p><i>It&#x27;s not about the technology. It never has been. You&#x27;re number one mission whenever you get a contract is to understand the business and figure out how you can get them making more money. (aantix)</i><p>Almost exactly right. It&#x27;s not always about making more money, though; it may just be to figure out how to make their software do what it is supposed to do. Too many job postings and too many résumés list technologies without addressing business needs or experience. For me, 10X has been good at getting both sides to talk about and describe business requirements and setting clear deliverables and goals.<p><i>Boy. As someone who actually runs a contracting + project agency, that looks to be of an approximately similar size as 10x (at least before this was published), this was lifting-cars-painful to read - not just because they have PR and I don&#x27;t, but because they (Solomon and Blumberg) _are the inefficiencies they are pretending to eliminate_. (scottru)</i><p>The New Yorker article was not an exhaustive description of how 10X works or who does what. Most of my interaction with 10X is with Michael Solomon, so to say he isn&#x27;t adding any value is just not understanding what he does. Everyone at 10X is adding value for me, and the several 10X customers I work for or have worked for have without exception said only good things about 10X Management. In my experience most projects go wrong due to miscommunication and conflicting expectations. 10X, and specifically Michael, are good at heading those things off before they become problems, and working out solutions that are acceptable to both sides.<p>Yes, 10X has had some great PR. No, they aren&#x27;t the only good freelancer agency or consulting firm. I&#x27;ve worked for quite a few placement&#x2F;consulting firms and with many recruiters in my career (35+ years) and for the work I do now and the life I want to live 10X is a great fit. It may not be the right fit for every client (freelancer) or customer, and it may not be the way to go if you want to try to make millions at a startup.<p>A few years ago I decided to concentrate on stalled projects and broken code, the almost-working or somewhat broken stuff left behind when developers fall out with their customer and stop answering their emails. My customers are mostly smaller businesses and non-profits, without the need or resources for their own IT staff, and without the sex appeal of Facebook or Twitter. They have real business problems to solve, they can&#x27;t throw everything away and start over, and they aren&#x27;t qualified to recruit and hire technical staff. I found plenty of this work on my own, but when I decided to travel and freelance remotely I worried about finding customers and easing their fears about hiring someone living overseas. 10X has been a good fit for me -- they bring in plenty of customers, they have clients with every technical skill you can think of when I need help, and they are a real US-based company that can assure customers I will deliver no matter where I happen to be. They have also negotiated better rates and more useful contracts that I was doing on my own.
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fecakover 10 years ago
This conversation about agents has come up here several times. The &#x27;agent&#x27; model referred to in this article is not so different from what run-of-the-mill recruiters do for their clients. Client calls saying they need to hire someone, and the recruiter provides a candidate (often an independent consultant). If candidate is hired, recruiter marks up consultant&#x27;s rate and makes a margin. That margin is the agent&#x2F;recruiter&#x27;s take - so the consultant is paying for the broker&#x27;s service regardless of whether that broker calls itself an agent or recruiter.<p>This isn&#x27;t new, but using the term &#x27;agent&#x27; makes it sound more appealing to all sides. The consultant can say &quot;I have an agent&quot;, and the hiring company feels that the level of talent should be higher from an agency than from your everyday recruiting firm. If the talent is vetted better, it could be.<p>Where the concept of agents gets much more interesting is when discussing those in salaried&#x2F;permanent hire situations. Consultants are generally willing to cede 15% or so of rate in order to use a broker&#x2F;agent&#x2F;recruiter&#x27;s services to find gigs. But will someone seeking a salaried employment role (a 150K software engineering job) pay an agent 5%&#x2F;10%&#x2F;15% of their salary in order to find a permanent position?<p>Because most of the tech population works in salaried positions, this is the real question. Independent consultants make up a relatively small portion of the industry, yet this &#x27;agent&#x27; conversation really only applies to them at this point.<p>I like the agent concept as it aligns the incentives of the recruiter&#x2F;agent and candidate much more clearly, as opposed to the current recruiter model where the recruiter is typically considered to be more aligned with the hiring firm. (The real estate agent argument comes up here).<p>In this case, the &#x27;agent&#x27; model is mostly just a rebranding of what we currently have in place. If this ever hit the permanent&#x2F;salaried job market, that will be a bigger story.
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skrebbelover 10 years ago
Sounds like 10x Management hired a PR firm.
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erooover 10 years ago
&gt;&gt;&quot;Enter the agents. Solomon describes himself as an equalizer. In creative industries, he told me, &#x27;there’s always this pattern that the creatives start out at the bottom of the food chain and are exploited.&#x27;&quot;<p>Even recognizing that the current hiring model has major inefficiencies, it&#x27;s hard to not see this as awfully ironic.<p>&gt;&gt;&quot;part of our goal is to de-risk freelancing and make it more viable. [...] She also appreciated that they had been vetted for interpersonal skills. At one point, they had to speak directly with the health-care company’s New York offices. &#x27;They were good,&#x27; she said. &#x27;And it wasn’t embarrassing to let them out of their cave.&#x27;&quot;<p>The value proposition of the agent, pushing both technical and personal professionalism of candidates, should be addressable through a reputational system that doesn&#x27;t take 15% and require ad hoc negotiations. It would, however, have to be complex enough to address how well certain talent is at addressing specific projects. How much of that is a lack of proper metrics and how much is the hiring party&#x27;s inability to frame their needs?
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_pmf_over 10 years ago
Introducing a clueless additional middleman rarely solves a problems.
hkarthikover 10 years ago
I find this agency model for hiring to be troubling because it&#x27;s turning software into a hit-driven industry like Music, Movies, or Video Games.<p>Hire a few rockstars, belt out a hit with hockey stick growth, watch it flame out or lose interest over time, and then watch the rockstars move onto their next project.<p>What about the founders who put their heart and souls into building a real sustainable business?<p>What about the customers who took the chance on an unknown solution and may have become dependent on it?<p>What about the developers that might have worked with the rockstars, but are less interested in moving on and more interested in continuing to build great products?<p>I can see why a lot of talented folks got jaded by this industry in the last bubble. And I think it&#x27;s clearly happening again.
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scottruover 10 years ago
Boy. As someone who actually runs a contracting + project agency, that looks to be of an approximately similar size as 10x (at least before this was published), this was lifting-cars-painful to read - not just because they have PR and I don&#x27;t, but because they (Solomon and Blumberg) _are the inefficiencies they are pretending to eliminate_.<p>Let&#x27;s take a few parts of the article:<p>&gt;&gt;&quot;The three partners have separate roles. Blumberg handles his and Solomon’s eleven remaining music and entertainment clients, and takes care of back-office matters: “Accounting, invoicing, collection, payouts. Everything that’s the bane of most people’s existence.” Guvench vets new talent. Potential clients have to fill out a questionnaire that one programmer compared to “the most complicated dating Web site ever.” Then Guvench and Solomon conduct interviews, to screen for communication skills. (I heard one potential client say, during a meeting in Solomon’s office, “We don’t want people who just write code and drool.”) Guvench also does code reviews—testing Web sites that aspiring clients have built, and reviewing the programs they’ve written.&quot;<p>So... --Blumberg isn&#x27;t working on the business at all; --Solomon&#x27;s work isn&#x27;t even described (except &quot;conducting interviews for communication skills&quot;).<p>So there&#x27;s one person, Guvench, an ex-engineer, who&#x27;s actually doing the technical vetting - i.e. 100% of the value so far is coming from one guy.<p>OK, then maybe the others are selling? Nope.<p>&gt;&gt;&quot;10x technologists are working with a variety of customers: Live Nation, a virtual-reality startup, and an N.B.A. player who has an idea for a social-messaging app. Solomon admitted, however, that this list is somewhat random—it consists mostly of people who found 10x through Google, or whom he or his clients know personally. He has hired a salesman, to pitch 10x to companies.&quot;<p>OK, so you&#x27;re closing PR-driven leads and your friends in the entertainment business? That&#x27;s your sales pipeline?<p>I know a number of agencies with two or three partners running the organization. I don&#x27;t know a single one of those where there isn&#x27;t somebody pounding the pavement, hustling, finding clients - and who know the difference between a long-term partner and a sports star with an &quot;idea for a social-messaging app.&quot; (We _all_ hear about those.)<p>The other value they&#x27;re talking about is in the negotiation process. Hey, I&#x27;m totally willing to believe that a many-year entertainment agent is a better negotiator than I am, at least in the first-principles department. But this is not some magic skill in what is generally a well-defined and competitive market, and of course you&#x27;re better at it when you deeply understand the technology and market, the BATNA for the client, etc. Those of us who actually understand the very small markets that one job description might meet are, in fact, pretty darned good at it too. For that matter, I&#x27;ve never told an engineer that you should work with us because we can get you a better deal than you can get for yourself, and if you&#x27;re dealing with a client who understands the market (which said NBA player may not), that&#x27;s pure hokum. (P.S. plenty of people on HN provide that coaching for free all day long.)<p>It&#x27;s ok that the author doesn&#x27;t really understand this market, and so the competitors she mentions aren&#x27;t really competitors at all - they&#x27;re all focused on full-time hiring. I guess it&#x27;s also OK that the New Yorker&#x27;s fact-checking department didn&#x27;t discover that there&#x27;s no such programming language as &quot;THP&quot; - that should be &quot;PHP.&quot; (Maybe it&#x27;s just a typo.)<p>But to let the reader believe that this approach represents the best this market has to offer - well, I guess that&#x27;s just really, really great PR. Back to work.<p>(Added later: I realized I commented on these folks 1.5 years ago at <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5527610" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5527610</a>. I was feeling nicer then? Maybe? It looks like the participant in that HN thread was the partner who&#x27;s clearly adding value.)
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mathattackover 10 years ago
Can you really get rockstars like that for $150-$250&#x2F;hour including the agent&#x27;s fee?<p>How are these agents any different than other contracting firms, other than their supposed access to the best?
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3rd3over 10 years ago
The rockstar metaphor always strikes me as unprofessional because it seems so incompatible with team work. Why aren’t there any rockstars in other areas of engineering?
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sireatover 10 years ago
When you read the examples given of super programming prowess such as making a function for repetitive tasks and bunching calls to db it gives the illusion that that is all it takes.<p>Hey I do all these best practices, doesn&#x27;t everybody else?<p>Then you return back to reality of being a lazy 0.1xer and realize that there is a great deal unwritten and glossed over in these kind of general interest pieces.
hackdaysover 10 years ago
We are embarking on a reverse negotiation model for startups as well. Feel free to signup <a href="http://250ksalary.com" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;250ksalary.com</a><p>There are lots of areas in life where the cost of acquiring a quality product&#x2F;service is clearly communicated. Salaries haven&#x27;t been one of them, which might change.<p>Don&#x27;t confuse upfront salary negotiations with lack of motivation etc. This just brings more quality candidates to job markets, saves everyone a lot of time and lets you focus on other important parts of hiring process.
prairiedoggover 10 years ago
&quot;Todd McKinnon, the C.E.O. of Okta, a cloud-computing company, told me that top engineers are worth way more than what we’re paying them.&#x27;&quot;<p>Relieved to hear that Todd!
ExpiredLinkover 10 years ago
The &#x27;10x&#x27; super star and other myths debunked:<p><a href="https://leanpub.com/leprechauns/read" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;leanpub.com&#x2F;leprechauns&#x2F;read</a>
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dreamweaponover 10 years ago
Hasn&#x27;t the whole 10x myth been largely discredited, for some time now? How are we to take a company draws its business plan from it seriously?
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stuaxoover 10 years ago
In the US are most jobs offered directly ?<p>In the UK it&#x27;s all pretty much through agencies ... agents vary immensly, at the top end they can be good, more often they don&#x27;t know about the technology they are recruiting for, and about 1 in 5 times you will get a bad one that will do things like lie about the rate.
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einrealistover 10 years ago
How is the rockstar being evaluated? I mean, if the rockstar sucked at two clients before, is it still 250&#x2F;hr for the next client, because he co-authored X? Or is the 100% success rate guaranteed in the contract? It is like reading about a homeopathy product.
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mgkimsalover 10 years ago
I&#x27;ve been predicting this sort of approach would happen for a while now, and glad to see it taking shape. I would like to see it more prevalent, but living in a somewhat less business-focused area, this approach may not trickle down here for several years.
yoshiokatsuneoover 10 years ago
How about finding out from TopCoder, HackerRank, or any coding challengers ?
penprogover 10 years ago
This is a parody right?
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0800899gover 10 years ago
great comment section i must say
michaelochurchover 10 years ago
<i>Sam Altman, of Y Combinator, said that, in the small world of Silicon Valley, the very idea of talent agents presents a “negative-selection problem”: “The actual 10x engineers don’t need or want an agent; people quickly discover they’re great, and they end up picking where (and especially with whom) they want to work. In my limited experience, the engineers that get agents are bad.”</i><p>That may be true now, but programming has a <i>huge</i> reputation management component. Negotiation isn&#x27;t hard to learn, but it&#x27;s always better to have an advocate than to negotiate for yourself (note: lawyers retain other lawyers) and detecting trends in technologies and finding work that helps a programmer&#x27;s career is a full-time job in its own right.<p><i>By many measures, the star system didn’t work that well for Hollywood: it made moviemaking more expensive, which made studios more risk-averse, which led to inferior creative projects. And programmers are not movie stars—not yet, anyway. “Movie stars have their own brands,” McKinnon, the Okta C.E.O., said. “People will go to see a movie just because it has Tom Cruise in it. But programmers don’t really have that. No one’s going to pay for a product just because James Gosling built it.” (Gosling is one of the inventors of Java.) “Well, geeks like me will. But most people won’t. They pay for a service.”</i><p>In Hollywood and software both, value delivered is multiplicative rather than additive. A good actor in the lead role might add 10% to revenue. If it&#x27;s going to be a $5 million film, that&#x27;s only $500,000. If it&#x27;s going to be a $250 million film, that&#x27;s huge: now we&#x27;re talking about $25 million. Of course, many of these multiplicative variables are latent and unknown until the thing&#x27;s actually released.<p>Because of this, no one knows what &quot;the base&quot; is, or who contributed what, and there&#x27;s wide room for negotiation.
sort3dover 10 years ago
Who would hire a firm called 10x (two timers?)
rajacombinatorover 10 years ago
That&#x27;s some lolworthy PR right there. The &quot;UX designer for Apple&#x27;s iCloud&quot;??? These headhunters must have no idea how stupid that sounds to anyone who is actually in our industry.
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