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The Death of Agile [video]

161 pointsby StylifyYourBlogover 10 years ago

21 comments

Toineover 10 years ago
I&#x27;m really surprised by this video.<p>I&#x27;m a junior developer who just got out of college. I knew the software industry isn&#x27;t as mature as some other industries, but I kinda thought as a whole we were moving towards a more professionnal, more robust, less amateur industry.<p>This guy, if I heard correctly, participated in writing the Agile manifesto, which is basically software&#x27;s 10 commandements written by the Agile gods. In this talk, he basically says : &quot;Yea actually we were kinda wrong, you shouldn&#x27;t listen to anyone telling you to do anything, just run free in the jungle and you&#x27;ll be fine.&quot;<p>So after all those years of trying to find a solution to how to do software correctly, this is his answer? Why would you say something like that?<p>How do you teach people then? Where can i learn how to do my job correctly? The 4 steps he give cannot be taken seriously...can you imagine medical students being taught &quot;yea just try something and see what happens, hopefully your patient doesn&#x27;t die and you&#x27;ll learn something for the next patient.&quot;
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oldpondover 10 years ago
I think I know who Dave is making fun of, and yes, there are plenty of stakeholders who are hopelessly lost and willing to &quot;buy agile&quot; to make it look like they are doing something. Just get all the useless project managers to call themselves scrum masters and hold daily stand-ups (which in the old days we called micro managing) and hope and prey that something works...<p>I&#x27;ve been in this business since the 80&#x27;s and a consultant since &#x27;98, and I can say that although I love the agile approach, busted organizations and &quot;enterprise&quot; consultants are killing the ideas. Agile is a software development approach, not an organization development methodology. The last gig I was on the customer tried to &quot;go agile&quot;. All the departments started holding daily stand-ups which quickly became silly repetitions and micro management kill-zones. Picture this, the daily help desk standup: &quot;Yesterday I answered phones, and today I plan to answer phones again.&quot; Everyone was doing &#x27;agile&#x27; except the software development teams. Maybe Dave is right, all you can do is laugh about it. And then put it all on the cloud.
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slowmovintargetover 10 years ago
Now if we can just get management to sit down and watch this...<p>I keep watching Cargo Cult &quot;Agile&quot; turn every project into a galley, developers at the oars with the scrum master merely manning the drum and shouting &quot;row!&quot; Two lashes for failing to update your task in the system, no matter that the work got done...<p>We really need to get back to the real measure of working software instead of &quot;are we going to have a demo or not?&quot;
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baneover 10 years ago
If there&#x27;s a truism, it&#x27;s that Agile is and always will be a reactionary process to older Waterfall style methodologies adopted from other engineering principles. That means it suffers from some of the kinds of problems reactionary &quot;we&#x27;ll do the opposite of that old broken stuff&quot; ideas have.<p>For example, I&#x27;m afraid that in many environments, Agile ends up meaning &quot;directionless or micro-directioned iterative development&quot;<p>e.g. just start building stuff, nobody has any real idea what the ends state is supposed to look like or work, but we&#x27;ll iterate into something at some point. Probably when we get close to running out of money.<p>Old fashioned honest engineering is tossed out while the framework&#x2F;technology of the month gets absorbed into this or that sprint cycle and when problems preventing what feels like forward motion are discovered, crap just gets thrown against the wall until something moves forward a step.<p>Things ship late, nobody can schedule anything, budgeting and hiring plans are a mess.<p>One of the defining aspects of being human is that we&#x27;re capable of thinking a few steps ahead and formulating a plan. The way Agile works in most shops returns us to being mere beasts of coding.<p>Of the places I&#x27;ve seen, the difference between success and endless-iteration-failure-followed-by-multiple-rewrites-from-scratch-before-delivery-because-look-at-all-the-lessons-we-learned-along-the-way is that somebody sat down before any work started and defined the goal, timing, budget and expectations.<p>There&#x27;s <i>some</i> planning, some mockups, some interaction prototypes, etc. at the start that&#x27;s <i>hard</i> work to do, but defines the goals and vision the work effort should be going towards...the &quot;shape&quot; of the work.<p>Goal driven development is something that seems to be missing in too many shops. It&#x27;s hard though, because you don&#x27;t want to end up in the waterfall trap again, but you don&#x27;t want to end up in an directionless iteration morass either.<p>It takes experience and lots of road miles to understand that balance and succeed.
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placeboover 10 years ago
Watching this, my first thought was how an aerospace engineer or a structural engineer or any engineer&#x2F;manager of any complex established engineering field outside the software development field would react to this video. Probably with horror, shock and disbelief :)<p>Though I haven&#x27;t given this too much thought, I think it boils down to the fact that the software engineering process is not like (and who knows if it will ever be like) older well established engineering fields, and this could be due to a combination of:<p>a) The unbelievably vast number of degrees of freedom and therefore infinite ways an engineer has to achieve a working model. Aside from the requirements and the hardware limits, the only limiting factor is the engineer&#x27;s imagination and creativity.<p>b) The mind blowing complexity of a large software project. The space shuttle, definitely one of the more complex machines built by mankind, is built from about 2.5 million separate parts. The Linux kernel (from 2012, according to wikipedia) has 15.9 million lines of code, and it is by no means the largest software project.<p>c) The relatively young age of the field vs. the exponential rate at which new technologies are devised and introduced in it<p>All this I feel currently puts software development somewhere between an engineering and a form of art. However, I&#x27;m sure many people would find it unsettling to think they have to trust a form of art when flying in a commercial jet at 30,000 feet, launching a $500M space mission, or endless other modern operations that depend on software to succeed. The fact is though, that it does succeed. I doubt the same methodologies are used in every large software project around the globe, but the bottom line is that whatever methodologies are used (not taking into account different levels of effectivity or cost) most apparently appear to succeed getting the job done without a established &quot;standard&quot;.
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threepipeproblmover 10 years ago
I really enjoyed this.<p>One detail that stuck out at me is that after Thomas makes the claim that the single metric that matters in software is how easy it is to change, he moves on to show a balancing robot.<p>Now he doesn&#x27;t directly connect those concepts, instead he talks about the PID algorithm. But what struck me is that Moshe Feldenkrais defined good posture almost exactly in the same way that Thomas defines good software, although he is talking about humans rather than robots. Specifically, Feldenkrais says that good posture in a given context is that which makes it easiest to move into the next desired position (or a spectrum of potentially desirable next positions).
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lifeisstillgoodover 10 years ago
For me, and I think i just worked this one out, Agile can only work in a collaborative, open, high trust environment.<p>If you have that, pretty much anything you do will be agile. If you don&#x27;t there is bugger all you can do to get to agile without fixing it.<p>Personality conflicts, leaders who shut down discussions, developers who just want to do what they are told and collect a pay check, this and more will screw you up.<p>So go for slow development, constant learning, some humility, and a company that won&#x27;t fire you for looking like you are just &quot;thinking about it&quot;
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InclinedPlaneover 10 years ago
For those who aren&#x27;t aware or didn&#x27;t pick it up, Dave Thomas is one of the handful of originators of the &quot;Agile Manifesto&quot;.<p>Other than the obvious (profit motive in selling snake oil) there are some common problems that make evaluating and applying process difficult. One of the biggest problems is actually the effect of highly talented teams. If you have a team of skilled folks then they will often succeed independent of process. If they are burdened with unworkable processes they will quite often work around them, bend them, or ignore them and get shit done regardless. Which makes it difficult to tell when you&#x27;ve got a good process in place as well.<p>Another major problem, alluded to in the video, is the desire for brain death in management. People want silver bullets, they want universal advice, they want policies that don&#x27;t require effort or thought to achieve results. You see something similar in tech security, everyone wants to hire a unicorn&#x2F;jesus who swoops in and fixes everything, like a landscaper who comes in on the weekends to do yard work or something. The reality is that development, and security, requires effort at every level. It requires conscientious application of skill and judgment to get good work done, and that&#x27;s true at every level. You can&#x27;t simply apply one or another process and then switch your brain off and hope for the best.
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tunesmithover 10 years ago
For those that are allergic to snark like me, skip the first fifteen minutes - it doesn&#x27;t start getting constructive until then.
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pmoriartyover 10 years ago
I&#x27;d like to show this to my company, but I&#x27;m afraid I&#x27;ll offend coworkers who make their money at the company &quot;doing Agile&quot; and I&#x27;ll get lynched, not to mention fired.
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rebelshrugover 10 years ago
Not everything about agile software development is bad. Planning poker is a great team exercise if you replace the planning part with a deck of playing cards, poker chips and beer.
capkutayover 10 years ago
Not to sound lazy, but I&#x27;d like to make a humble request for a TL;DR? I can skim long papers, but you can&#x27;t do that for long videos!
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fppover 10 years ago
Also read his interview on the topic in Dr Dobb&#x27;s earlier this year <a href="http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/dave-thomas-interview-the-corruption-of/240166688" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.drdobbs.com&#x2F;architecture-and-design&#x2F;dave-thomas-i...</a><p>The diagram he shows in the presentation around 5min is from Scaled Agile that is trying to formalise the use of agile development approaches within the enterprise context (online at <a href="http://scaledagileframework.com/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;scaledagileframework.com&#x2F;</a> )<p>I believe some the key messages from Dave are:<p>* Use common sense and focus on the goals and what you&#x27;re planning to deliver - the approaches provide you with the agility to more likely arrive there.<p>* People and working solutions before processes and approach<p>* Collaborate, explore and adjust to change vs follow a predefined fixed plan<p>Some negative examples I&#x27;ve seen:<p>&quot;Funny and ridiculously expensive certifications&quot; - Job adverts making it a key requirement to have a &quot;<i>scrum master</i>&quot; certification instead of looking for people who successfully delivered solutions (within change &#x2F; complex environments) Note: It takes 1-2 days from absolute beginner to being a &quot;<i>certified scrum master</i>&quot; and it costs a stunning £1,200 in London.<p>&quot;Process over common sense&quot; - Within a company of some of my friends when they asked me to help to turnaround a critical situation with their key development team - besides 2 developers all others had left because of conflicts with their line managers, one of them now standing in as &quot;<i>scrum master</i>&quot; and prescribing to continue and do daily stand-ups like before with two 6 people teams - sometimes only one developer together with the manager.
mathieuhover 10 years ago
I&#x27;m in university at the moment and we&#x27;re learning about Agile. Next year I&#x27;ve managed to get a year long placement with a big local software company and their interview and technical assessment mentioned Agile loads. The year after that, I have half a module (worth 8% of that year&#x27;s available marks) based solely on Agile. I&#x27;ve also attended talks by big names like Citigroup and also local startups which were almost entirely about using Agile.<p>So is it in fact the case that in The Real World Agile is starting to go out of favour?
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ItsMattyGover 10 years ago
Agile is good in uncertain environments with frequent project changes, but not in other situations... Simon Wardley has a good model that seems to work reasonably well:<p><a href="http://blog.gardeviance.org/2014/11/how-we-used-to-organise-stuff.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.gardeviance.org&#x2F;2014&#x2F;11&#x2F;how-we-used-to-organise-...</a>
guiomieover 10 years ago
I keep hearing the word &quot;agile&quot; from vendors, consultants and non-software related stakeholders at my work (a telco). For me it is a buzzword, thus I have been quite reluctant toward it.<p>Seeing also one of the original authors thinking so, means I&#x27;ll stay even more away, and perhaps take people using the word with skepticism.
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dmuxover 10 years ago
I&#x27;ll just leave this here: <a href="http://seir.sei.cmu.edu/sheard/Life%20Cycle%20Silver%20Bullet.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;seir.sei.cmu.edu&#x2F;sheard&#x2F;Life%20Cycle%20Silver%20Bulle...</a>
chriscareycodeover 10 years ago
I love this talk by Erik Meijer on the topic <a href="http://vimeo.com/110554082" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;vimeo.com&#x2F;110554082</a>
serve_yayover 10 years ago
He is quite a speaker, but really the first 15 minutes is a standup comedy routine for project managers. You can skip that part.
pmoriartyover 10 years ago
Anyone have a direct link to the video?<p>I&#x27;d like to watch it, but it requires me to run some Flash plugin, which I&#x27;d like to avoid.
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InclinedPlaneover 10 years ago
(As much as I hate to post twice on a thread, I&#x27;ve had some thoughts that I haven&#x27;t seen expressed yet.)<p>I think a lot of folks are missing some important perspective on the origin and rise of &quot;agile&quot; and the current state of process in the software industry. So let&#x27;s take a quick trip back to the bad old days before agile to get a sense of what software development was often like back then.<p>First off, a lot of software was developed &quot;out of house&quot; so to speak, as works for hire by consultancy type companies. There would be extensive negotiations between the customer and representatives of the development company, the end goal of this process was typically a specification and a timetable that was then mutually agreed upon, through a legally binding contract, as to what would be built.<p>Next, the development company would take that specification and come up with a design that would be able to match the specs. Then that design would be sliced up and handed out to various teams and eventually down to individual devs. After the individual coding was done it&#x27;d be integrated together and compiled into a working product. The product would then be passed off to QA to test in order to make sure it didn&#x27;t have any bugs and that it matched the spec. After that the product would then be passed on to the customer to use.<p>And everyone lived happily ever after.<p>Of course, there are a few problematic aspects to this process. Namely: everything. Usually what would happen is that the spec and&#x2F;or the design would be unrealistic or impossible to implement, and wouldn&#x27;t be what the customer actually wanted regardless. Often this was handled by acrimonious bouts of negotiation, often involving lawyers. Meanwhile, attempting to build anything that worked at all using this sort of process was a nightmare. When the software was integrated only at the last minute there were always a million new problems discovered. With such &quot;big-bang&quot; integrations a lot of effort is spent spinning away just getting the software to build and work at all. Meanwhile, when QA is the last step before handing the product off to the customer that means that defects, especially design defects, have had the greatest amount of opportunity to fester and take the most effort to remove. And, of course, the chance that the project would chew up many staff-years of effort without actually producing anything of use whatsoever was quite high with this model, since actually building software was a fairly late step.<p>In the face of all these very fundamental problems with the venerable &quot;waterfall&quot; process model a lot of new process ideas started to gain traction, more or less culminating in the &quot;agile manifesto&quot;. The core idea of agility is to use iterative development, continuous integration, and open lines of communication to keep on track. The &quot;customer&quot; (or &quot;stake holders&quot;) can see the direction of the product mid-stream and have many chances to correct communication errors or even errors in their original conception of what they wanted. The software is always being built and always being tested so integration overhead costs are much less severe and defects are spotted much closer to where they are introduced, making them easier to fix. The software is routinely in a &quot;shipable&quot; state with a continually evolving subset of the &quot;final&quot; featureset, this lets the customer see how close the developers are to the schedule and also dramatically reduces the risk of not shipping anything at all. The developers can always time box the release and ship <i>something</i> of value, even if it wasn&#x27;t what was originally intended.<p>And so on.<p>The thing is, today we live in a fundamentally agile world of development. Waterfall is so far from the norm it&#x27;s essentially extinct. The very idea of futzing around with nothing but requirements and specs for months or <i>years</i> before bothering to write a line of code is so anathema to the current standards of software development it seems ridiculous. Everyone knows you start with a skeleton and you flesh it out iteratively. The idea that you&#x27;d have your code base in an unbuildable state, let alone an unusable product state, for more than a few hours or days at most is similarly seemingly preposterous.<p>The fact that the basic principles of agility are now so ubiquitous that they are like a mold infecting every nook and cranny of the software industry is still unsatisfactory for a lot of folks. Management wants a process they can sink their teeth into. They want something that requires no effort on their part but seems like a silver bullet that can solve any problem. They want gadgets and tools. They want a process that they can leverage to justify all of their bad behaviors while removing accountability from themselves. And that&#x27;s what agile-the-noun has become. Not agility, but rather an excuse for micro-management. A way to plan without planning. A justification for short-sightedness and disengagement. A convenient rolodex of excuses for why everyone but management is at fault for being late or building something bad or broken or that no one wants.<p>You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.