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Gmail blocked in China

261 pointsby brandonheatoover 10 years ago

33 comments

estover 10 years ago
No no no this is bad journalism. Is not just blocking &quot;access&quot; to gmail, but one out of of five Gmail&#x27;s MX servers are blocked<p><pre><code> gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com (74.125.31.26, blocked) alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com </code></pre> to be specific, all traffic to address of 74.125.31.0&#x2F;24, including gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com, got null routed after AS4134<p>This means China now risks becoming isolated in global email network, not just &quot;access&quot; to Gmail.<p>And no, your VPN&#x2F;SSH&#x2F;whatever_tunnel won&#x27;t work if all of the MX servers are blocked.
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drzaiusapelordover 10 years ago
Not surprising considering the tricks they&#x27;ve been pulling of late. What can be said here? The people have chosen an autocratic government and often, without me even provoking them, will tell me how superior is is to western values, the same way Russians will also do. As an international traveler and sometimes international worker, this is fairly typical stuff. I see this kind of thing on VK and Facebook all the time. Everytime some autocratic regime cracks down the people go, &quot;Please more sir! We dont need the Western pigs and their decadent values!&quot; They buy into the anti-Western narrative pretty deeply.<p>My personal take is that there&#x27;s a great war for democracy going on right now and the final lines are being drawn. The weaker autocrats have fallen (mideast, Ukraine, etc) and the stronger ones are falling (Syria) but the strongest have double-down on oppression (China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc). I think this political dynamic will be the defining narrative for quite some time.<p>I also think a balkanazation of the internet is slowly happening. China is certainly doing it and Russia might follow. I personally don&#x27;t have a big problem with this. Probably means less malware and cyberattacks for everyone. I think its obvious that easy access to information isn&#x27;t this revolutionary thing, at least in autocratic regimes. People just seem to prefer state controlled media or narratives that fit in with their biases. Once China sets the precedent others will follow, especially if there&#x27;s zero economic fallout from it.
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kaptainover 10 years ago
The sentiment that access to Google services doesn&#x27;t matter because there are sufficient Chinese replacements is absolutely wrong. The Chinese government is handicapping its tech labor development by blocking Google.<p>I teach a basic web development workshop to university and vocational school students. One of the things we teach is how to look up things for youself on the internet. (Is that a cry of disbelief I hear? You can&#x27;t imagine how confused I was before we specifically modeled and taught this.) Baidu search results, when it comes to searching for technical answers, are really lame. Google&#x27;s search results are better, mostly because they tap heavily into the stackexchange network. It&#x27;s disappointing and frustrating to try to encourage students to search for things via Baidu because the answers to their questions are so difficult to find. I&#x27;ve had students tell me that they turn on a VPN in order to access Google because those search results are that much better.<p>And it&#x27;s not just a problem with having poor search results, but blocking the actual sites that have information is mind-boggling to me. I &#x2F;know&#x2F; that China can do finer grain filtering than on a per-domain basis; I&#x27;ve seen specific articles blocked on wikipedia while wikipedia itself remained accessible.
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kweksover 10 years ago
I&#x27;ve had less and less success with VPNs in China - I resort to SSH tunneling &#x2F; SOCKS proxies on personal boxes.<p>SOCKS proxies will get cut off after ~1h or so, you&#x27;ll have a &#x27;cool down&#x27; period of a few minutes, and then they&#x27;ll come back.<p>Presumably this is to irritate, or perhaps to have a chance to see which requests slip through during the disruption.
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akramhusseinover 10 years ago
Travelling in China right now. No Google services work but Gmail via SMTP on my iPhone seems fine. I&#x27;m not confident all emails go through though. Heading to Hong Kong tonight so not sure if that will be different. Using VPN does open everything but obviously becomes slower. It&#x27;s not only Google though, all social media.<p>Speaking to locals they don&#x27;t care. There is an alternative for everything and they are better suited to Chinese culture too.
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blisterpeanutsover 10 years ago
What do citizens in China think of this? When Google Search was effectively banned, some scientists said that they depended on Google Scholar and Google Books, services which were also affected by the ban. Are Baidu and similar services really an effective replacement?<p>I&#x27;m also wondering what would happen if the U.S. takes this to the World Trade Organization. Arbitrarily blocking some company&#x27;s services could well be interpreted as unfair trade practices. And a more aggressive U.S. government, perhaps with a more protectionist president in 2016, might well decide to retaliate.
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kazinatorover 10 years ago
Can mail server operators other than Google opt into this?<p>It would be an administrative simplification for me if China would block itself from my port 25.
devllover 10 years ago
I live in Urumqi. Not only Gmail is blocked , but all the google services are blocked here. And it has been quite a long time.
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eitallyover 10 years ago
Perhaps we are an edge case, but this has a potentially significant impact to certain businesses, namingly those that are Google Apps customers and rely on gmail to get work done. They&#x27;ll be routing all web traffic over their own network via HK or Singapore, but...<p>That doesn&#x27;t help employees who need Mobile email access. As of now, companies can&#x27;t count on remote access to corporate gmail by Chinese employees. We have about 2500 Chinese employees with sanctioned BYOD phones - it&#x27;s a huge problem!
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roylezover 10 years ago
Chinese Gmail user here. Now the easiest way to access Gmail is via Mailbox. No kidding. It works on my android phone and Macbook, and should do as well on iPhone. The first time of use requires a proxy, but afterwards it is okay without any. My guess is email information is partially saved on Dropbox servers by Mailbox. I don&#x27;t know for how long Mailbox would continue to work though. when it doesn&#x27;t work, I will have to use a SSH tunnel every time checking emails.
invaliddataover 10 years ago
I have friends and family who are Chinese. Although it is not a universal ttuth, the fact is that many Chinese see the west only as something to be exploited, and do not wish to play by the same rules. This applies to individuals who have come here to work, not just the government or Chinese businessmen. The sentiment is that China was exploited inygr past, and now it is time for payback. One deals with China and Chinese without this backgroud at one&#x27;s peril.
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runewellover 10 years ago
I have only been to HK and Macau but never to the China mainland. Pardon my ignorance, but why does the Chinese government bother to censor the Internet? Are the people in China not happy with the progress that has occurred over the past few decades? Is the government really that concerned with their populace discussing politics or sensitive issues openly? Do Chinese provinces consider themselves to be separate and distinct or is it more like US states where the differences are superficial and the division is unimportant?<p>It seems to me the US doesn&#x27;t have much leverage regarding this particular issue. We would be best served working harder towards more affordable and flexible manufacturing automation so we can be more self-reliant.
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DanielBMarkhamover 10 years ago
So if I want to start an email conversation with a vendor about some work I might need, they can&#x27;t correspond with me because I&#x27;m on GMail? And this makes sense to the Chinese?<p>But on the bright side, looks like China will begin a struggle to stop &quot;organ harvesting&quot;, a euphemism if I&#x27;ve ever seen one. (Not that the effort is forecast to be successful.)<p>From a meta narrative, it&#x27;s interesting that there was a great push for centralization of everything, which Google benefited from. Now, due to political realities, we may be seeing another huge push for localization, even if it means owning one&#x27;s own cloud server somewhere that one can VPN into.
praptakover 10 years ago
What would happen if everybody added random &quot;free tibet human rights xinjiang&quot; triggers to their web pages? Or even better, randomly embed real snippets from organizations that fight for human rights in China.
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freakyterroristover 10 years ago
While this is undoubtably an aggressive move by China I can&#x27;t help but doubt that the impact will be very large. By now most Chinese users of googles services are using VPNs so this really only affects the lowest common denominator of Chinese users
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epynonymousover 10 years ago
i didn&#x27;t rtfa, but this is nothing new, i&#x27;ve been in shanghai since 2007, afaik, google services (including gmail) have been hard to access, it was really after eric schmidt put the assault on china by making things public (circa 2010) that things started to get to really bad. from memory, 50% of the time, google services (search, gmail, apis, compute engine, office apps, etc) would not work back in 2007, in 2010 probably 80% of access would fail, and recently in the past year and a half, it&#x27;s been almost 99% to now 100%.<p>i&#x27;ve already started a backup strategy long ago (about 8 months ago) as the frustration was just started to drive me crazy, I migrated all my services to either local equivalents or microsoft (outlook.com), but there&#x27;s only a matter of time before those perhaps also get blocked.<p>of similar relation, ever since the snowden leaks, it seems that china has started looking to ban or outright limit foreign technology services used by the china government which is basically almost like everything, the nickname is qu ioe, qu which stands for out&#x2F;oust, ioe stands for ibm, oracle, and emc.<p>note that vpn still seems to work, and if you&#x27;re traveling on a roaming mobile service, you can still access google services (and others like facebook, twitter, youtube), but if you&#x27;re plugging into the hotel wifi without vpn, good f&#x27;ing luck. note that i also work at a foreign national software company in china, the office can access these services uninhibited since we have an mpls to the main office in the valley.<p>if you&#x27;re living in china and dependent on foreign services&#x2F;apis like google then it&#x27;s really hard because you must have vpn or some equivalent. i suggest even using a jumpbox.
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fan123199over 10 years ago
Gmail blocked shocked me a lot. I was optimistic about the future of China&#x27;s speech environment by new Chairman Xi&#x27;s comming, but from he got the power, the condition is not changed, still bad, and even worse. The internet block is more aggressive and now the gmail is blocked. This is my baseline because email is very individual services. I think it&#x27;s time to think about immigrating abroad.
footpathover 10 years ago
Here is an editorial from Global Times (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Times" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Global_Times</a>, a government mouthpiece known for its ardent pro-Party slant): <a href="http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/899197.shtml" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.globaltimes.cn&#x2F;content&#x2F;899197.shtml</a><p>Some select quotes:<p><i>&quot;The problems with Gmail access this time may be caused by the China side, by Google itself or a combination of the two. But Western media pointed the finger at Chinese authorities immediately, accusing them of strengthening its cyber censorship. This is far too simple a hypothesis. It should be noted that Google voluntarily quit the mainland market in 2010. The issue at heart is to what extent Google is willing to obey Chinese law, on which China&#x27;s attitude is steadfast.&quot;</i><p><i>&quot;In this sense, it&#x27;s dubious that China &quot;blocked&quot; Gmail simply over security concerns. Since both Google and China haven&#x27;t given an explanation and meanwhile Gmail is a technically complex system, there may be some puzzling reasons behind the incident.</i><p><i>&quot;If the China side indeed blocked Gmail, the decision must have been prompted by newly emerged security reasons. If that is the case, Gmail users need to accept the reality of Gmail being suspended in China. But we hope it is not the case.&quot;</i><p>The article&#x27;s original Chinese version can be found here: <a href="http://tech.huanqiu.com/internet/2014-12/5313893.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;tech.huanqiu.com&#x2F;internet&#x2F;2014-12&#x2F;5313893.html</a><p>Curiously, the English version is missing the following two paragraphs:<p><i>&quot;中美围绕互联网既有合作,亦有摩擦,双方的相互适应过程仍在继续。由于中美关系庞大而复杂,互联网问题只是其中一部分,外部变数的影响也是存在的。&quot;(Third to last paragraph)</i><p>My translation: <i>In regards to the Internet, China and the US both cooperate and experience some frictions, so the mutual adaptation process of the two sides continues. Due to the complexity of the Sino-US relationship, Internet issues are only a part of it, and there also exist other external variables.</i><p><i>&quot;因此无论Gmail“失联”是谷歌还是中方的原因,或者是复合原因,使用者们不妨顺其自然,做多手准备。中国发展有过多难以计数的磕绊和插曲,这个故事又算得了什么。&quot;(Last paragraph)</i><p>My translation: <i>Whether Gmail&#x27;s &quot;losing contact&quot; is caused by Google or China, or a combination thereof, users should just go with the flow, and be prepared with other backup plans. China&#x27;s development process has been met with countless stumbles and other interludes, so this story doesn&#x27;t really matter in the end.</i>
kaptainover 10 years ago
Any HN&#x27;rs who live in China use Fastmail? Can you share your experience?<p>I&#x27;m thinking of switching over but my primary concern is whether Fastmail encounters similar problems to Gmail. (You might recommend using a VPN all the time, but that doesn&#x27;t always work for me).
manlioover 10 years ago
Slightly OT, but I&#x27;m going to travel through China in a couple days and before reading this thread I thought I could get away with my VPN (hosted on my Digital Ocean VPS) plus eventually Tor, but now I&#x27;m not quite sure anymore.<p>Could anybody shed light on this?
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BillFranklinover 10 years ago
I&#x27;m fairly sure this has been the case for a few months, this site is very useful: <a href="http://www.blockedinchina.net/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.blockedinchina.net&#x2F;</a>.
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knownover 10 years ago
This URL appears to be accessible from mainland China.<p><a href="http://viewdns.info/chinesefirewall/?domain=gmail.com" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;viewdns.info&#x2F;chinesefirewall&#x2F;?domain=gmail.com</a>
WhitneyLandover 10 years ago
Is Tor not an option? I thought it could hide itself pretty well via HTTP tunneling. Maybe the performance makes it a last resort.
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radikalusover 10 years ago
Is this true in the FTZ as well? I&#x27;ve yet to find really good reliable info on the net situation in the FTZ...
horacexover 10 years ago
this is so stupid. we are a startup team from China using Google&#x27;s Apps service. So far most of mainstream mail provider like 163.com and qq.com can still exchange email with gmail. But without VPN we can&#x27;t send&#x2F;receive mails from mobile.
fown9over 10 years ago
Two observations:<p>1) Since China effectively blocked most of Google&#x27;s services (and uses Google&#x27;s mobile operating system for free and makes a ton of money off it - look at Xiaomi), Isn&#x27;t it basically that China was able to rob Google, and doesn&#x27;t suffer any consequences from it?<p>2) Also most US websites are blocked in China (Google, Facebook, Dropbox, Youtube, Twitter, Wikipedia, NYTimes, the list goes on and on...) Why is it that the US government doesn&#x27;t take any action against that, where as China is freely dumping cheap manufactured products that are made in factories that violate human rights?
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gebegbover 10 years ago
Oh yeah, let more people see through the nature of the RED empire.<p>It&#x27;s funny that they even hosted a world internet conference recently.
nihaodyover 10 years ago
But the big bad USA is still much much worse than China let us not forget!
illumenover 10 years ago
Trade war imminent?
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Nuxover 10 years ago
So, should I understand that essentially centralising email within gmail is bad? How have we not seen this coming? &#x2F;sarcasm
xnull2guestover 10 years ago
This is likely because of Google&#x27;s agreement with the US government to provide access to Chinese emails to officials as part of Foreign Intelligence Surveillance, and the Chinese hacking of the access systems put in place by Google for law enforcement to collect a list of active surveillance targets.
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fidotronover 10 years ago
It&#x27;s fairly interesting to contrast the reaction here with that whenever Uber is involved. Google violate laws in China, but apparently that&#x27;s to be encouraged, yet if Uber do the same in a nice supposed liberal democracy they are to be criticised?<p>As it stands end users are reduced to pawns in the emerging power struggle between governments and multinationals.
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atoponceover 10 years ago
The &quot;Great Firewall&quot; in China has over 600 million active Internet users. That&#x27;s double the population of the United States. Baidu is the dominating search engine, there are replacement services for Twitter, Facebook, and others. Their IM &quot;Wechat&quot; has over 300 million active users alone.<p>In all reality, Google, Facebook, and others would _love_ to have even the smallest presence in China to get access to that user base. It&#x27;s a gold mine just waiting to be cracked. Until they are, it will be referred to as &quot;The Great Firewall&quot;, when in reality, Chinese internet users probably aren&#x27;t really missing a lot, outside of politically charged sites, perhaps.
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