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Hardware startups should consider local manufacturing

68 pointsby twaldover 10 years ago

30 comments

iandanforthover 10 years ago
I&#x27;ll add one word of caution, I&#x27;ve looked into getting a product made that had a textile component and a separate product that had a leather component.<p>Precision, automated stitching is either totally absent or completely unaffordable in the US. There are great shops India and China that can do laser cutting and CNC stitching super cheaply and if you want to make an inexpensive product to tight tolerances this is exactly what you want.<p>Unfortunately much of the consumer level textile industry has completely left the US. Same with leather. You can find boutique manufacturers, luxury manufacturers, and aerospace type companies, but the sweet spot of high quality and a good price just doesn&#x27;t exist here. (I actually hope I&#x27;m wrong about that but I did <i>a lot</i> of searching before abandoning a couple projects.)
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amckennaover 10 years ago
I have backed a half dozen Kickstarters and Indigogos that were hardware based (consumer electronics) and chose to manufacture in China. Seeing the time and money they spend in order to fly someone over to China to troubleshoot and issue with manufacturing or testing has left me wondering - why do small startups choose to manufacture in China to begin with?<p>&gt; Is it because they assume that despite the initial cost over local manufacturing the investment will be worth it if their product takes off?<p>&gt; Is it because everyone else seems to do it?<p>&gt; Or maybe because there aren&#x27;t any good local places to have electronics manufactured? This I would find a little hard to believe given the concentration of hardware startups in SF, NYC, SEA, which have local hardware manufacturers.
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kcorbittover 10 years ago
&gt; If you’re based in Germany, there is a 7 hour time difference to east Asia, if you’re based in California, it is 16 hours.<p>No, in California, it&#x27;s 8 hours (in the other direction). It doesn&#x27;t make sense to talk about more than 12 hours of time offset except if you really care about aligning the calendar day instead of just the hour of the day.
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tlbover 10 years ago
I agree that manufacturing in-house is great for hardware startups. I&#x27;ve seen it work for several. The insight they gain into the details of design, and the speed they can iterate at, more than make up for higher local labor costs.
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jtoberonover 10 years ago
In the NYC area, there&#x27;s <a href="http://www.refactory.co/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.refactory.co&#x2F;</a>. I used to work with these guys, and they know their stuff.<p>They argue in favor of both designing and manufacturing locally. A quote from their blog: &quot;If you kind of just prototype something and bring it to China expecting that then thousands of these things can be made easily without understanding the processes and materiality of manufacturing, that is gonna be a big problem for you. What works is when the design process is iterated alongside the manufacturing process.&quot;
sabalabaover 10 years ago
Those costs in China are too high. I&#x27;ve lived in Shenzhen for under $70 USD &#x2F; week in a hostel. If you eat out every meal for 100 RMB, you&#x27;re not even going to be spending $350 a week for meals. While I agree that if you can do it locally, do it locally, but those numbers for the cost of living and travel in China are inaccurate.
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shaneclevelandover 10 years ago
What exists to help entrepreneurs find&#x2F;pair up with manufacturers locally&#x2F;domestically? Opportunity there?<p>I work for a US manufacturer (non-tech related), and we frequently get inquiries from folks about making their products. We are primarily focused on producing our own products, but it is nice to fill gaps in production and explore new partnerships. But we don&#x27;t actively pursue this, and I have no idea how they find us. WOM and random online databases, is my guess.
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Animatsover 10 years ago
Local manufacturing only works if you&#x27;re in a place where there&#x27;s a lot of manufacturing, or your product doesn&#x27;t really require much manufacturing capability. You many need to be in a place where there&#x27;s someone down the street with a 20 ton press. If you need a 20 ton press, you need to be in a place where at least three shops have one.<p>If you&#x27;re making things which are basically PC boards, manufacturing is not too hard. Making boards and soldering parts onto them has a well developed workflow. There are lots of board houses and board-assembly services. If you design for what a pick and place machine can do easily, things usually go well. Hint: production is surface mount today. This is a pain for people who are used to prototyping with through-hole parts.<p>Kickstarter-class startups seem to have excessive problems with making cases and panels. Tooling for injection-moulded plastic is difficult and expensive. Once you get it right, the parts just fly out of the machines at a few cents per part. The production process is just getting warmed up on a run of 10,000 parts, and few Kickstarters get there. Basic truth about manufacturing: most of the processes are really cheap if you&#x27;re making enough items, and far more expensive for short runs.
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seddonaover 10 years ago
On the electronics side we (<a href="https://circuithub.com/" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;circuithub.com&#x2F;</a>) have spent a lot of time on automation to bring US manufacturing costs inline with China.<p>I definitely agree with the premise of the OP, local manufacturing has a lot of benefits.
allworknoplayover 10 years ago
Local manufacturing is the only way to go if you&#x27;re developing a reasonably complicated product and don&#x27;t have a team that&#x27;s super experienced with international manufacturing. I was the technical co-founder of Brightbox (brightboxcharge.com, us founders are no longer affiliated), we were based in NYC and could never have done the prototyping and iteration required if we couldn&#x27;t clap eyes on hardware constantly.<p>There&#x27;s plenty of great manufacturing in the US. Since I&#x27;m a software guy, we had one company build us a prototype and handle industrial design (Tomorrow Lab, <a href="http://tomorrow-lab.com/;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;tomorrow-lab.com&#x2F;;</a> Pepin is a friend) and found an integrated mechanical engineering and manufacturing firm just over the river in NJ (Tech Products, techproductsco.com; Bob is an awesome human being) for the final product and first few real runs.<p>Having an actual partner we could meet with all the time, understand clearly, and iterate with was incredibly valuable for us. Plus obviously there are important technical integrations (I was writing all the software myself while the ME and EE was happening) and multiple suppliers, and if you&#x27;re in charge of managing a few bespoke engineers who sometimes don&#x27;t see eye to eye, you&#x27;d better be able to work with them all carefully and personally.
terramarsover 10 years ago
Totally agree with this. Have a friend who had a successful kickstarter and decided to go with China - he shipped a year late after spending most of his time in Shenzen and going through multiple suppliers. In the interim, they lost the first mover advantage and there are now multiple similar products on the market. If you&#x27;re not already well established and making a massive amount of something, it&#x27;s a really bad idea to outsource.
x0x0over 10 years ago
If you haven&#x27;t heard of Schiit, it&#x27;s a fascinating story of a small company that builds high end and low end headphone amps&#x2F;dacs, for much less money than competitors. In CA.<p>One of the two founders wrote an online book about it here:<p><a href="http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.head-fi.org&#x2F;t&#x2F;701900&#x2F;schiit-happened-the-story-of...</a>
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organsnyderover 10 years ago
I know some people that started a company that makes GPS receivers for avionic use (any pilot will likely be able to name them). I heard them explain their rationale for manufacturing in China, and IIRC it wasn&#x27;t related to cost—in fact, they said that cost was comparable to domestic production. Rather, the main advantage was the ability to source components, such as the Apple-specific connectors they have to use. Of course, there are difficulties inherent to working with a manufacturer that&#x27;s half a world away (miscommunications, timezones, travel, etc.), but they determined that it was still the best way to manufacture their product.<p>China especially has manufacturing centers where just about any component can be sourced within a few hours, rather than waiting for parts to be shipped from around the country (if not the world).<p>China has a huge edge in electronics manufacturing, and it&#x27;s not because of cost (anymore). If we ever hope to compete, we&#x27;ll likely need to promote such a domestic manufacturing ecosystem via extra-market means.
soggypennyover 10 years ago
We (<a href="https://supplybetter.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;supplybetter.com</a>) get asked the China vs. US question all the time and my answer is usually &quot;your mileage may vary&quot;. It&#x27;s a great post by the Flow team, but where to source your manufacturing supply chain is highly dependent on the type of product being built. For instance, the product and vendor certifications required for aerospace, defense, and medical industries are a much larger influencer of where to setup a supply chain than in the consumer hardware space. If you&#x27;re developing a high-end consumer office product like the Flow team, then it probably makes sense to do the majority of the development domestically. The Bay Area is a great place to prototype hardware, and there&#x27;s a large fraction of potential beta testers and software talent for them to tap. But like I said, YMMV.
kosmaover 10 years ago
As usual, the answers are not simple. At our last hardware startup we ended up manufacturing the mechanical parts (injection moulded case, springs, etc.) in China via our industrial design company but did PCBs, assembly and packaging locally in Poland. We simply didn&#x27;t have enough prior experience to design a foolproof assembly process (which involved flashing, testing on GSM&#x2F;GPS repeaters, etc.). We are considering moving the to production to China, but only once we solve any critical hardware bugs, smooth out the wrinkles in the flashing&#x2F;testing process and reach sufficient quantities. With small orders of 100s of units and unexpected disasters like resistors tombstoning due to small errors in solder paste stencils, a five minute call to the manufacturing plant beats cross-timezone, cross-language and cross-culture debugging every single time.
teamhappyover 10 years ago
I&#x27;ve been thinking about this just the other day. The context then was locally grown weed in the US and the implications of that for farmers in South America. Wouldn&#x27;t we be better off distributing the &quot;workload&quot; evenly across the planet?
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thrufloover 10 years ago
As a founder of <a href="https://www.opendesk.cc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.opendesk.cc</a> I think <i>all</i> startups should consider local manufacturing -- when they&#x27;re fitting out their work space.<p>&lt;&#x2F;tenuous plug&gt;
festover 10 years ago
I read the story how &quot;Schiit happened&quot; the other day and the last part of chapter 8 also touched this subject: <a href="http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/495#post_10375915" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.head-fi.org&#x2F;t&#x2F;701900&#x2F;schiit-happened-the-story-of...</a>
Animatsover 10 years ago
Local manufacturing only works if you&#x27;re in a place where there&#x27;s a lot of manufacturing, or your product doesn&#x27;t really require much manufacturing capability. You many need to be in a place where there&#x27;s someone down the street with a 20 ton press. If you need a 20 ton press, you need to be in a place where at least three shops have one.<p>If you&#x27;re making things which are basically PC boards, manufacturing is not too hard. Making boards and soldering parts onto them has a well developed workflow. There are lots of board houses and board-assembly services. If you design for what a pick and place machine can do easily, things usually go well. Hint: production is surface mount today. This is a pain for people who are used to prototyping with through-hole parts.<p>Kickstarter-class startups seem to have excessive problems with making cases and panels. Tooling for injection-moulded plastic is difficult and expensive. Once you get it right, the parts just fly out of the machines at a few cents per part. The production process is just getting warmed up on a run of 10,000 parts, and few Kickstarters get there. Basic truth about manufacturing: most of the processes are really cheap if you&#x27;re making enough items, and far more expensive for short runs.
Animatsover 10 years ago
Local manufacturing only works if you&#x27;re in a place where there&#x27;s a lot of manufacturing, or your product doesn&#x27;t really require much manufacturing capability. You many need to be in a place where there&#x27;s someone down the street with a 20 ton press. If you need a 20 ton press, you need to be in a place where at least three shops have one.<p>If you&#x27;re making things which are basically PC boards, manufacturing is not too hard. Making boards and soldering parts onto them has a well developed workflow. There are lots of board houses and board-assembly services. If you design for what a pick and place machine can do easily, things usually go well. Hint: production is surface mount today. This is a pain for people who are used to prototyping with through-hole parts.<p>Kickstarter-class startups seem to have excessive problems with making cases and panels. Tooling for injection-moulded plastic is difficult and expensive. Once you get it right, the parts just fly out of the machines at a few cents per part. The production process is just getting warmed up on a run of 10,000 parts, and few Kickstarters get there. Basic truth about manufacturing: most of the processes are really cheap if you&#x27;re making enough items, and far more expensive for short runs.
Animatsover 10 years ago
Local manufacturing only works if you&#x27;re in a place where there&#x27;s a lot of manufacturing, or your product doesn&#x27;t really require much manufacturing capability. You many need to be in a place where there&#x27;s someone down the street with a 20 ton press. If you need a 20 ton press, you need to be in a place where at least three shops have one.<p>If you&#x27;re making things which are basically PC boards, manufacturing is not too hard. Making boards and soldering parts onto them has a well developed workflow. There are lots of board houses and board-assembly services. If you design for what a pick and place machine can do easily, things usually go well. Hint: production is surface mount today. This is a pain for people who are used to prototyping with through-hole parts.<p>Kickstarter-class startups seem to have excessive problems with making cases and panels. Tooling for injection-moulded plastic is difficult and expensive. Once you get it right, the parts just fly out of the machines at a few cents per part. The production process is just getting warmed up on a run of 10,000 parts, and few Kickstarters get there. Basic truth about manufacturing: most of the processes are really cheap if you&#x27;re making enough items, and far more expensive for short runs.
dmritard96over 10 years ago
For some it will make sense. Try iterating on your board designs in CA - I mean like testing your pcb antennas, component swap out etc during development and spend weeks waiting around for you pcbs. Being in shenzhen you can get 1 or 2 day turn around... Even if you don&#x27;t manufacture there, development is pretty awesome
organsnyderover 10 years ago
I know some people that started a company that makes GPS receivers for avionic use (any pilot will likely be able to name them). I heard them explain their rationale for manufacturing in China, and IIRC it wasn&#x27;t related to cost—in fact, they said that cost was comparable to domestic production. Rather, the main advantage was the ability to source components, such as the Apple-specific connectors they have to use. Of course, there are difficulties inherent to working with a manufacturer that&#x27;s half a world away (miscommunications, timezones, travel, etc.), but they determined that it was still the best way to manufacture their product.<p>China especially has manufacturing centers where just about any component can be sourced within a few hours, rather than waiting for parts to be shipped from around the country (if not the world).<p>China has a huge edge in electronics manufacturing, and it&#x27;s not because of cost (anymore). If we ever hope to compete, we&#x27;ll likely need to promote such a domestic manufacturing ecosystem via extra-market means.
organsnyderover 10 years ago
I know some people that started a company that makes GPS receivers for avionic use (any pilot will likely be able to name them). I heard them explain their rationale for manufacturing in China, and IIRC it wasn&#x27;t related to cost—in fact, they said that cost was comparable to domestic production. Rather, the main advantage was the ability to source components, such as the Apple-specific connectors they have to use. Of course, there are difficulties inherent to working with a manufacturer that&#x27;s half a world away (miscommunications, timezones, travel, etc.), but they determined that it was still the best way to manufacture their product.<p>China especially has manufacturing centers where just about any component can be sourced within a few hours, rather than waiting for parts to be shipped from around the country (if not the world).<p>China has a huge edge in electronics manufacturing, and it&#x27;s not because of cost (anymore). If we ever hope to compete, we&#x27;ll likely need to promote such a domestic manufacturing ecosystem via extra-market means.
organsnyderover 10 years ago
I know some people that started a company that makes GPS receivers for avionic use (any pilot will likely be able to name them). I heard them explain their rationale for manufacturing in China, and IIRC it wasn&#x27;t related to cost—in fact, they said that cost was comparable to domestic production. Rather, the main advantage was the ability to source components, such as the Apple-specific connectors they have to use. Of course, there are difficulties inherent to working with a manufacturer that&#x27;s half a world away (miscommunications, timezones, travel, etc.), but they determined that it was still the best way to manufacture their product.<p>China especially has manufacturing centers where just about any component can be sourced within a few hours, rather than waiting for parts to be shipped from around the country (if not the world).<p>China has a huge edge in electronics manufacturing, and it&#x27;s not because of cost (anymore). If we ever hope to compete, we&#x27;ll likely need to promote such a domestic manufacturing ecosystem via extra-market means.
jtoberonover 10 years ago
In NYC, there&#x27;s <a href="http://www.refactory.co/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.refactory.co&#x2F;</a>. I used to work with these guys, and they&#x27;re great.
jtoberonover 10 years ago
In NYC, there&#x27;s <a href="http://www.refactory.co/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.refactory.co&#x2F;</a>. I used to work with these guys, and they&#x27;re great.
jtoberonover 10 years ago
In NYC, there&#x27;s <a href="http://www.refactory.co/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.refactory.co&#x2F;</a>. I used to work with these guys, and they&#x27;re great.
kweksover 10 years ago
A lot depends on the product you are manufacturing, and the relationship you have with the manufacturer.<p>Business in China operates via &#x27;Guanxi&#x27; [ <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanxi" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Guanxi</a> ] - which losely translates to a heirachy of: family first, then friends, then people from the same town, then of the same province, then of the same country, and then, the lowly gweilo &#x2F; white devil.<p>If you don&#x27;t have previous contacts or a solid history in China, you fall right to the bottom of the stack - meaning you&#x27;ll have a bad price, bad negotiation point, low priority in the factory, and ripe for being &#x27;disappointed&#x27; with your experience.<p>Likewise, many people who outsource manufacturing to China hop on alibaba, find a manufacturer with a low per item cost, and think they&#x27;ve cracked East&#x2F;West trading. Not so. There are many, many hidden gotchyas involved - ranging from child labor, poor conditions, the &#x27;factory&#x27; you chose isn&#x27;t even the manufacturer, to hiden nasties in pricing &#x2F; shipping, etc.<p>There is a large misconception that products from China are junk. This is partly true. Some products from China are junk - simply because the Chinese can and will manufacture according to the resale price specified by the buyer - that is to say, you. When you buy a $1 item from WalMart, and you know its price &#x27;should be&#x27; $5, you contribute actively to this problem. Want to see a great product made in China? Look at your Apple device.<p>If you&#x27;re contemplating doing business or manufacturing in China, there&#x27;s a few basic things to do to avoid common pitfalls: 1. Visit your factory. Fly over, arrange meetings with 4 - 5 similar factories, and inspect them all. If something seems suspicious, return unannounced to see the reality. This is really, really important. Meeting clients and relations are very, very important in China. 2. Understand &#x2F; learn how Chinese do business. If you don&#x27;t have local contacts, consider finding a local broker to do the hard work on your behalf, and negotiate Chinese&#x2F;Chinese (See Guanxi above). Due diligence here is important. 3. Plan for 12-month development cycles. If you&#x27;re in a big factory, you&#x27;re competing with their big clients. Most manufacturers plan in 24-month development cycles, so plan at least in 12 month cycles. This is just common sense. 4. Factor in shipment prices &#x2F; shipment terms. Learn the difference between EXW &#x2F; FOB &#x2F; etc. These make huge diffrences to your bottom line. Remember for production runs to have shipping insurance &#x2F; liability insurance. 5. Don&#x27;t fall into legal issues: ensure you know what and how your goods are manufactured. Making toys &#x2F; figurines? Make sure your factory is certified to make them, or be able to live with the consequences. 6. Be realistic about your MOQ. If you&#x27;re looking for 5 items, don&#x27;t look to China - you&#x27;ll only waste your time and the factory&#x27;s time.<p>Like any decision in business, you need to consider what works best for your business.<p>Source: 30+ years of manufacturing hardware [locks, tools, etc], toys [figurines, plush, etc], and electronics [PCBs, injection moulded cases etc] in China.
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reformdesignsover 10 years ago
Great points - thanks Tobias!