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The Way We Hire Is All Wrong

168 pointsby mhr_onlineover 10 years ago

18 comments

FLUX-YOUover 10 years ago
&gt;Staffup Weekend put the lie to Stein’s pronouncement. As Nicholson later wrote me, “The fact that people stayed for 48 hours to work on something put them head and shoulders above the thousands of applications we receive, because the participants are people who show up and see things through.”<p>And this event is an attempt to make showing up for a 48 hour &#x27;work trial&#x27; a norm. This favors the younger, single population, and while you&#x27;re working on whatever this event is, you are not putting more resumes out. There&#x27;s the potential for abuse in getting free work out of applicants from other people mimicking this event.<p>(How long until we&#x27;re tossed into an arena with bows and arrows only to survive and rewrite every algorithm from a CS degree on a whiteboard?)<p>Although the 46% percentage figure was shown in this thread to be wrong&#x2F;bad, even if you consider hiring as a coin-toss, your success still depends on how many resumes you can put out there. You have to balance the time it takes to tailor your resume to the company versus moving on and finding the next company to submit a resume to. At the extremes, some people don&#x27;t tailor at all and throw their resume and cover letter at everyone in a suit. Others will do deep-dive research and make 27 drafts of a resume&#x2F;cover to the point where they already know more about the company than the person who may hire them. I still think there&#x27;s significant coin-tossery going on: if the companies are having to filter everyone because there is so much volume, then you must at least do as much as you can to increase your own output. The &#x27;trick&#x27; then is to just know someone who can put in a good word (and it really has always been an option)<p>This may work for some job sectors as a novel hiring process (it&#x27;s certainly overblown for retail&#x2F;fast food) but if it scales up, you&#x27;ll end up taking significant bargaining power from individuals. To say nothing if companies start replacing their current employees with the winners from these kinds of events.
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whiddershinsover 10 years ago
What a bizarre and compelling story. Glad to have read it.<p>Meanwhile I think the hiring problem&#x2F;solution is staring us right in the face.<p>What would the world be like if contract&#x2F;freelance&#x2F;part time&#x2F;short term work were the default?<p>Isn&#x27;t it perhaps weird that there is an assumption companies and employees should bind their fates together, and, if it doesn&#x27;t work out, one or both parties is pretty screwed because of an investment of time and money which will likely result in a person being unemployed and&#x2F;or a company paying a person far beyond when they are providing value.<p>This is like getting married after one date. Every time.<p>If employees were assumed to be exploring many things simultaneously, both sides would have plenty of chances to gather meaningful data about the employer&#x2F;employee relationship, and if it is really a great fit, a long term employment arrangement could be worked out, with a contract that reflects mutual responsibilities revolving around this shift to an all-eggs-in-one-basket situation for the employee - and likely a corresponding move to much more critical functions being performed for the company.<p>I cynically suspect the current concept of full-time work evolved to suit employers, it allows them to manipulate and scare employees, especially when (for example) health insurance is at stake. Employers naturally have more data about salaries and so forth, in general most employers have many employees, while most employees only have one employer. That is inherently asymmetrical. Now that certain skill sets are harder to hire for, it is hurting everyone.<p>But the situation was never that great from the beginning, let&#x27;s figure out a way to make it better for everyone.
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auggieroseover 10 years ago
I didn&#x27;t even read the story after this gem: &quot;In 2012, for example, consulting firm Leadership IQ announced it had tracked 20,000 new hires over time and discovered that 46% of them had failed within 18 months. In other words, most recruiting practices are about as effective as a coin toss.&quot; Now, what&#x27;s wrong with this reasoning? :-)
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exo762over 10 years ago
&gt; In 2012, for example, consulting firm Leadership IQ announced it had tracked 20,000 new hires over time and discovered that 46% of them had failed within 18 months. In other words, most recruiting practices are about as effective as a coin toss.<p>This does not take into account amount of candidates that have been rejected.
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VLMover 10 years ago
&quot;We found zero relationship. It’s a complete random mess.&quot;<p>Something overlooked is the millions (billions?) of non-productive labor hours that go into the failed traditional hiring process, when even the smartest guys in the room have to admit that upon statistical analysis its all a waste of time. That&#x27;s an enormous staggering financial drain on the economy.<p>Overall, across the entire economy, the overall minimum cost mode of hiring would appear to be a union work hall. So employer shows up and the dude who&#x27;s been sitting there unemployed the longest is hired.<p>This would require incompetent people to admit their own incompetence, so its never going to be implemented, we&#x27;re all above average here and just because no one else can do traditional hiring correctly doesn&#x27;t mean I won&#x27;t be the first to ever get it right because I&#x27;ve been told since birth I&#x27;m a special snowflake and I have the participation trophies to prove it, etc.<p>I&#x27;m not saying we have to unionize (whole nother topic) but stealing the union work hall &quot;technology&quot; would seem a very wise idea.
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biotover 10 years ago
See <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8859199" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8859199</a> for a great discussion (329 comments) on Brooke Allen&#x27;s APL hiring story.
lultimouomoover 10 years ago
Published 2 days ago, link to previous thread: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8947958" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8947958</a>
barrkelover 10 years ago
It&#x27;s not clear what the author of the story did. Mr Programmer did the programming and Ms UX did project management and UI.<p>She&#x27;s an &quot;ideas person&quot;, isn&#x27;t she.
iolothebardover 10 years ago
The way people hire is all wrong in my opinion too, this is even worse.
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askinakhanover 10 years ago
I strongly believe that hiring should be based on data. Based on the following 5 factors:<p>1.Intellect 2.Values 3.Motivations 4.Behaviours 5.Experience<p>With these factors you can determine a persons Cultural Fit and predicted future performance. In fact, you could automate this through technology.<p>For example, for predicting future performance we could test the high performers in our company then we have a template for what motivations and behaviours high performers are likely to exhibit. Based on this we can then assess new comers and map them against high performers. The more highly correlated they are, the more likely you should be to hire them.<p>For culture, if you currently like the culture of your company you could simply assess the values of all your employees, average them and assess new applicants against this and depending on correlation, hire them or not. This could be done through a CFT (Cultural Fit Tool)<p>But this is just one suggestion. Software that enables this could work quite well IMO.
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BrookeTAllenover 10 years ago
<a href="https://medium.com/@BrookeTAllen/give-us-your-tired-your-poor-your-overly-automated-b08e067ca18e" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@BrookeTAllen&#x2F;give-us-your-tired-your-poo...</a>
winkover 10 years ago
Is it me or is there no author name? I mean, it could be deliberately anonymous but then that&#x27;s usually noted.<p>It was a really interesting read but I am probably just being grumpy and not a fan of medium.
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lordnachoover 10 years ago
One thing I&#x27;ve wondered is why companies hire people one at a time.<p>Barely anyone works alone on anything, yet to decide whether to hire someone, you invite people individually through a funnel process and expect them to be able to work together. The best teams are not necessarily the ones with the most Ivy Leaguers on them.<p>Why don&#x27;t more companies let the applicants self-organise, and then hire the best teams?
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BrookeTAllenover 10 years ago
This is awesome; I am so thrilled you are talking about this.<p>I am preparing a response to Deborah’s article; working title:<p>A Hackathon Cannot Fix a Broken Hiring Process. But the Right Experiences Can.<p>You see, in 2004 my life changed when I started caring about the people I did not hire. You discussed that here: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8859199" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8859199</a><p>But the thing you probably don’t get, and I didn&#x27;t get until much later, is that I did not create a hiring process.<p>And it sure wasn&#x27;t a contest with a job at the end (as many of you think).<p>It was an experience.<p>For the people who engaged with the experience it was life-changing. For those who didn&#x27;t it wasn&#x27;t.<p>Certainly for the people I hired it was life changing.<p>Changing jobs will change your life – what would be the point otherwise?<p>And certainly going from unemployment to employment changes your life; how could it not?<p>And working for me will definitely change your life because I grok this better than almost anyone you’ll ever meet.<p>But I want to change everyone’s life whether they work for me or not because I never wanted to be a programmer, or an analyst, or a hedge fund manager or all those other things I have had the accidental good fortune of becoming.<p>All I&#x27;ve ever wanted to be since the sixth grade is a teacher. See this: <a href="http://internationalfamilymag.com/IFarchives/archives/sep07/stories.htm" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;internationalfamilymag.com&#x2F;IFarchives&#x2F;archives&#x2F;sep07&#x2F;...</a><p>Most of the attendees experienced a hackathon because they couldn&#x27;t figure out how to experience anything else. After all, this was held in the Bay Area in 2014.<p>The exact same thing could have been held in London in 1842 and yet nobody could have possibly experienced a hackathon back then.<p>When you read her article, notice that Deborah poses a question but doesn&#x27;t answer it. She talks about her experience of the other attendees but doesn&#x27;t offer to introduce any of them to readers who might be hiring. She ends the article with a really good suggestion that someone should create Smartup Weekend to slap some sense into employers. She asks, “Who wants in?” But she doesn&#x27;t even buy the domain name. Doesn&#x27;t she know that you shouldn&#x27;t mention a domain name you don’t own in a coffee shop anywhere near San Francisco because the guy next to you will buy it and then try to sell it to you for $10,000. And NEVER EVER do that in print. (Of course, as soon as I read her piece I snapped up SmartupWeekend.com and I offer to transfer it to anyone who can convince me they will actually build something rather than just talk about it. I’ll give it to you for free on condition that if you don’t do much with it then I get it back.)<p>In short, so far Deborah has reported on her experience, but hasn&#x27;t fully ENGAGED WITH IT.<p>Deborah’s experience of Staffup Weekend is only beginning now. I am confident that someday she will see that weekend as a pivotal point in her life.<p>I’m less sure about the rest of the attendees because I have seen no evidence they have engaged with the experience as anything but a contest they have lost. After all, Deborah organized a 1-month reunion and nobody showed up.<p>There is still hope if these folks reflect on what happened, refer to their notes (surely they took notes), then refactor the whole thing and reflect on what they can still learn.<p>But even if they don’t do that, I’m sure every one of them could be excellent employees under the right circumstances because, as Woody Allen says, 80% of success is showing up and they did way more than that. You can see everyone here: <a href="http://staffupweekend.org/2014/11/22/report-on-staffup-san-francisco-nov-1-2-2014/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;staffupweekend.org&#x2F;2014&#x2F;11&#x2F;22&#x2F;report-on-staffup-san-f...</a><p>If you’d like to meet any of them then let me know. I’ll gladly make the introduction.
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vonnikover 10 years ago
Nicholson here.<p>I sponsored Staffup Weekend, brought Brooke Allen to SF, and helped Deborah Branscum write her story for Medium. I did it because I&#x27;m the in-house recruiter for FutureAdvisor (<a href="https://www.futureadvisor.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.futureadvisor.com</a>), and recruiting is a mess.<p>FutureAdvisor hired me to do PR. But after we raised our Series B last year, our main problem was converting capital to talent, so that&#x27;s what I did. I didn&#x27;t choose recruiting; recruiting chose me. Just like it will choose many of the hackers on this thread who become entrepreneurs. I hope they can learn from our story.<p>The first thing a new recruiter notices is that recruiting is incredibly wasteful. It wastes time, emotion and money (contingency-based recruiters charge employers about 25% of a hire&#x27;s first year salary, so they&#x27;re paying an extra $35K to hire a software engineer at $140K). It wastes them for both the candidates and the hiring managers. Many of the flaws of the process arise from that wastefulness.<p>The problem at the heart of recruiting is how to gather good information about strangers in order to make a long-term commitment. It&#x27;s basically the same problem you have when you&#x27;re dating.<p>And, just as in dating, there&#x27;s a lot of noise in the market. Everyone&#x27;s beautiful with a little Photoshop. It takes a long time to get to learn who they really are, and what they can do.<p>To illustrate how wasteful the job market is, just imagine that both candidates and recruiters are sending out very similar, only slightly tailored information to every person on their list, day after day. If someone bites, then you escalate commitment and do a preliminary phone call.<p>I, as a recruiter, take the call with the candidate, because we don&#x27;t know how good they are yet, and I cannot waste my engineers&#x27; time. We are strapped. That&#x27;s why we need to hire people. (Non-technical recruiters get a lot of hate from technical candidates who do not understand this.)<p>If the candidate answers all the questions right that I have been instructed to ask, then I pass them on to the engineers for two technical interviews. If those go well, we invite them in for an onsite visit. In 90% of all cases, the onsite visit results either the company or the candidate rejecting the other. At that point, almost all the information they have gathered about each other is thrown out and never thought of again. (Sure, Glassdoor has some reviews and tips, but they&#x27;re minimal.) That&#x27;s the waste.<p>Those rejections do not necessarily imply that the company or the candidate is bad, or unsuitable to work with at all, just that they&#x27;re not quite the right fit. It&#x27;s just like dating. Sometimes the chemistry ain&#x27;t right. That doesn&#x27;t mean anyone&#x27;s a bad person.<p>There are a couple ways that we, singly and collectively, can try to solve this problem. And they all have to do with how the information is processed. Employers who trust each other could join together in a cross-referral system where they share candidates who were talented but not quite the right fit. FutureAdvisor is part of a couple of those networks, like YC, and they work OK. Their main purpose is to get total strangers one step further toward entering the circle of trust.<p>Candidates could do the same for each other. It would be a sort of viral networking, where within a circle of trust, everybody&#x27;s contacts become everyone else&#x27;s contacts. In both cases, information that one candidate or employer has gathered at great cost to themselves can be shared, rather than thrown away.<p>Another aspect of the job market is that companies and candidates are asking for the wrong information. Google used to ask for GPAs and Ivy League pedigrees, both crappy metrics. The great thing about professions like programming and design is that you can show your stuff. (Bizdev and middle managers, as a counter example, have a much harder time providing a portfolio of what they do.)<p>With makers, at least there&#x27;s a baseline. All hiring managers need to do, after they look at your Github, is figure out whether you are in fact the person who coded it, and how much time it takes you to solve similar problems. Another way of saying this: The only thing that correlates with performance is performance. And that&#x27;s all that good companies should care about.<p>So how do they obtain that information in an efficient way?<p>Batch processing. Staffup Weekend was an attempt at batch processing. We wanted to see a lot of people work at the same time. We made the event free. We asked people to create something they cared about. The ones that came, did so voluntarily. Whether they got a job or not, they walked away having done something they wanted to do. It was a pretty good experience.<p>But it could have been a lot better. I wish that other employers had been involved, to make it more valuable for the candidates who attended (we invited other companies, but got little response.) I could have given better feedback on the work people did.<p>On a meta level, teams were invited to create tools to fix the job market. One group created a Chrome plugin called Contactr.io, which shows you the emails of company founders when you visit their corporate website.<p>There are probably a lot of other ways to fix things. I hope someone on Hacker News will found something that makes hiring and getting a job easier. That person will become rich, famous and universally loved.<p>I also hope that someone reading this post is an infrastructure engineer with AWS, Linux, Bash and Ruby under his or her belt. If that&#x27;s you, please write: chris dot nicholson at futureadvisor dot com. Only you can save us, Obi-Wan.<p><a href="https://boards.greenhouse.io/futureadvisor/jobs/26313#.VMkv_MbZvTA" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;boards.greenhouse.io&#x2F;futureadvisor&#x2F;jobs&#x2F;26313#.VMkv_...</a>
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namelezzover 10 years ago
How to tell if you are incompetent?
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dlwjover 10 years ago
The thing I didn&#x27;t realize about the hiring process before going through it a couple times is that it&#x27;s not an inherently evil process or system.<p>It&#x27;s just that no one knows what the hell they are doing. It&#x27;s Hanlon&#x27;s razor.<p>The initial filtering is done by HR people only looking for keywords and looking for canned answers to basic questions.<p>They can also be done by recruiters hired by a hiring manager who hired every recruiter, thus inundating themselves with resumes by their own fault thinking more would be better<p>The phone screen will check you for &quot;status&quot;. Having an Ivy League education will help because even if you fail completely the hiring manager won&#x27;t lose face. If he takes a chance on a non-ivy league he will be roasted for wasting company resources. You will also have to claim to be very very passionate thus over-promising and in a position of constant not-good-enough-its-an-honor-to-work-here.<p>After they decide to bring you in, random people are chosen based on their free time to interview you. The list will usually include an extroverted person who tries to be buddy-buddy too soon and feels stiffed unless the other person has a similar personality. A puzzle lover who looked up an answer to a riddle before-hand and uses it to gauge your IQ. A new person who googled some good questions to ask just a few minutes before and makes sure he knows the answer. An H1B employee who doesn&#x27;t speak that clearly and assumes you are an idiot when you ask a simple question to be repeated. Finally a boss type will come in and make a final decision. The process is semi-democratic in that her yes cannot go against many no&#x27;s but her no can veto the yes&#x27;s.<p>----<p>Nowhere in this chain do people actually care. People are just trying to do their jobs. The hiring manager is trying to fill in slots b&#x2F;c a project manager is behind schedule and needs and excuse. The interviewers want to &quot;have beers with you&quot; thus gauging your integrated-ness into american culture.<p>Startup hiring is also fundamentally different and confusing. Young 20s make the best friends in their college days and often seek that same level of camaraderie in colleagues. However the resume process doesn&#x27;t lend itself to that. You are essentially blind dating. Startups escape the large system failures of large companies and so can focus on product rather than system management, but they also have to relearn many thing or else follow a heuristic script in semblance of a skeleton system. (e.g. top schools only)<p>----<p>Broadly speaking however, jobs are becoming more and more sparse because tools allow one person to do the job of many. One very very smart person that is. It&#x27;s already happening with many developer positions. Good tools for IT allow developers to do IT work, creating a merged &quot;devOps&quot; position. Easier web frameworks allow designers and developers to be merged. Good testing tools and frameworks gets rid of QAs. The merged positions reduce the amount of time required for these tasks but the new tool-user has to be super qualified.
bsderover 10 years ago
While I do agree that the interview process is arbitrary, I think that having a 50% success rate indicts far more than that.<p>If &quot;success&quot; is a coin flip, that means that <i>EVERYTHING</i> inside a company failed--interviewing, hiring, training, management, everything. If even <i>one</i> of those things was working, the success rate should be better than a coin flip.
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