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Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

424 pointsby Jemabout 10 years ago

74 comments

nearabout 10 years ago
The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy&#x27;s employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.)<p>If there&#x27;s anyone worse than Adria in this story, it&#x27;s both Hank&#x27;s and Adria&#x27;s former employers. You don&#x27;t destroy a person&#x27;s life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations are people, then they are clearly sociopaths.<p>That said, there was this excerpt: &quot;I know you didn’t call for him to be fired. But you must have felt pretty bad.&quot; &quot;Not too bad, he&#x27;s a white male. I&#x27;m a black Jewish female.&quot;<p>Followed by this later on, in the same interview: SendGrid, her employer, was told the attacks would stop if Adria was fired. Hours later, she was publicly let go. &quot;I cried a lot, journaled and escaped by watching movies,&quot;<p>Her lack of empathy is absolutely staggering. And, &quot;if I had kids, I wouldn&#x27;t tell jokes&quot;? Seriously?
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outworlderabout 10 years ago
I remember this episode well.<p>Adria is more immature than the jokes that she supposedly got offended by.<p>Let&#x27;s ennumerate:<p>- She overheard a conversation that wasn&#x27;t directed at her. In the middle of a conference she was hopefully not coerced at attending and should be paying attention to the speaker - She took a picture of two people, without asking for permission - She twitted said picture with negative comments - She followed up(!) the tweet with a blog post - She called one of the guy&#x27;s employers (!!!)<p>And that interview, my god. I really have nothing good to say about it.<p>The reactions afterwards from supporters of both sides aren&#x27;t an example of maturity either. But that&#x27;s what you get when you invoke an angry mob to do a job that could be handled in a civil manner.
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andrea_sabout 10 years ago
““Maybe it was [Hank] who started all of this,” Adria told me in the cafe at San Francisco Airport. “No one would have known he got fired until he complained. Maybe he’s to blame for complaining that he got fired. Maybe he secretly seeded the hate groups. Right?”<p>This paragraph really gave me chills... A lot of insight about her thought process, and a bit terrifying in my opinion.
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Red_Tarsiusabout 10 years ago
&gt; <i>“Somebody getting fired is pretty bad,” I said. “I know you didn’t call for him to be fired. But you must have felt pretty bad.”<p>&gt; “Not too bad,” she said. She thought more and shook her head decisively. “He’s a white male. I’m a black Jewish female. He was saying things that could be inferred as offensive to me, sitting in front of him. I do have empathy for him but it only goes so far. If he had Down’s Syndrome and he accidently pushed someone off a subway that would be different... I’ve seen things where people are like, ‘Adria didn’t know what she was doing by tweeting it.’ Yes, I did.”</i><p>A past of abuses does not justify Adria&#x27;s reactions and lack of empathy. Moreover, the article describes her blaming Hank for the threats, despite the fact that he didn&#x27;t engage in any vengeful behaviour.
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codecondoabout 10 years ago
Say what you like, but Hank didn&#x27;t do anything wrong here. In fact, he only expressed everything that had happened to him, and it just so happened that many people decided to stand up for him in what seems to be a situation of very, very poor judgement.<p>On the other hand, great and naturally flowing writing by the author, really enjoyed swimming through the story!
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MatekCopatekabout 10 years ago
I remember when this story happened and after reading it all again, I still think that what makes it so terrible is the fact both sides were fired. One of them because he was behaving immaturely at a conference and another because her employer was getting ddosed.<p>Is it just me or are those both terrible overreactions from the companies&#x27; sides? The whole sexism discussion is perfectly valid and very important, we <i>need to</i> talk about what is wrong, but those layoffs were nothing but selfish pragmatic decisions. Hank&#x27;s company didn&#x27;t want the bad PR and Adria&#x27;s didn&#x27;t want the security trouble...
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CHY872about 10 years ago
One important point here is that Adria&#x27;s role was that of developer evangelist - a role that requires good community engagement. It&#x27;s then not such a stretch to imagine that her ability to do this job well might be compromised in the aftermath of such an event.<p>It&#x27;s thus not <i>totally</i> unreasonable for her to be let go for this, even if it&#x27;s not her fault.<p>Having said that, I find both sides really depressing. The brogrammer&#x2F;franerdity approach does alienate women, which is why it should as much as possible be suppressed (although it&#x27;s a culture which itself is frequently hated on, so it&#x27;d be really easily to just end up with high school again). Meanwhile public shaming is also not desirable, especially when the act can easily be argued to be the product of a culture, not of an individual.<p>Both were at fault, but the guy involved shouldn&#x27;t have lost his job over it, and Adria probably shouldn&#x27;t have lost her job over it.<p>One thing that people don&#x27;t mention is that the employers of both might have wanted to get rid of them for other reasons.
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rorsabout 10 years ago
After reading this I don&#x27;t like Adria Richards very much. She seems very self involved with a persecution context. However, she is still very much a victim of sexist online culture. Bad people can be victims too.<p>A man makes a mildly sexist unfunny joke and the result is a woman is unemployed for six months and fears for her safety. That is &#x27;not cool&#x27;, and ironically only reinforces her and other women&#x27;s belief that there is a patriarchy out to get them.
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oracle2025about 10 years ago
One interesting aspect that seems to be completely left out of that discussion is the issue of labour protection laws.<p>Firing someone in Europe for some minor issue like that would probably be a major legal issue here.
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Jemabout 10 years ago
I remember when this incident happened. I can&#x27;t remember what my reaction was at the time (probably a combination of &quot;let&#x27;s not alienate women in tech further&quot; and &quot;sexual jokes are OK in the right context, and a conf is propably not it&quot;) but reading this excerpt - particularly reading about Adria&#x27;s continued anger(?) at Hank - really shocked me.
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zvrbaabout 10 years ago
So she overhears a <i>private</i> conversation between friends [none of the talk was directed to or being about anybody in particular], tweets a &quot;summary&quot; without context, adds a photo of the people involved, all in order to publicly shame them, while they did nothing wrong.<p>No sympathy for her.
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tompabout 10 years ago
&gt; “I distance myself from female developers a little bit now,” he replied. “I’m not as friendly. There’s humour, but it’s very mundane. You just don’t know. I can’t afford another Donglegate.”<p>I&#x27;m guessing he&#x27;s not the only one. If she wanted to make tech more welcoming for women, it looks like her plan backfired.
Jeddabout 10 years ago
One of the saddest stories in tech in the past few years.<p>Everyone lost. Nothing was gained.<p>As a white male I was implicitly guilty, but wasn&#x27;t sure how to stop being so.<p>The sock &#x2F; penis joke (broadcast to 9000+ people) was hard to get past, given the 1&#x2F;9000th sized unintentional audience of the repo &#x2F; dongle joke. Neither was especially funny, and it&#x27;s hard to remember a time in my distant past that I may have found either particularly droll. Maybe the low bar for contemporary comedy is what I find most disappointing.
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arcatekabout 10 years ago
Another interesting article about online shaming:<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;02&#x2F;15&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;how-one-stupid-tw...</a><p>The things is that we often forget that there are actual human beings behind the tweets - sometimes with poor judgment skills, but often more misguided than malevolent.
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andy_pppabout 10 years ago
I think the feeling of entitlement to be never offended isn&#x27;t a right (mainly because anything can offend some people). Adria is seriously comparing the situation caused by people making silly jokes to feeling as if she&#x27;s going to be murdered? Er?<p>I feel very bad for Hank in this and also don&#x27;t think that she should be hounded by 4chan et al. I will also avoid using SendGrid - her company in my life. Who is Hank&#x27;s previous employer? I intend to boycott that completely spineless company too (name and shame!).<p>Also I really fucking dislike the pop psychology about her Dad in the article. No. I believe your past is not your future and you are responsible for your choices.<p>Finally, it&#x27;s ironic that Adria implies she thinks hank deserves what he got. If Adria were being judged by her own standards about public discourse...
ekianjoabout 10 years ago
Wow, sounds like the good old days of Thought Police. See someone who don&#x27;t respect the ideology en vogue, report them, and bam, they will be taken care of. Nice job Adria. Setting the good example for the kids.
dfcowellabout 10 years ago
I feel some real cognitive dissonance when I read about how this situation unfolded.<p>Allegedly Adria felt threatened, fearful for her life. Her reaction to this fear was to turn around, take a photo, post it on the internet and presumably stay where she was. Hank expressed confusion over how the organisers found out about it - if she&#x27;d left her seat that confusion wouldn&#x27;t exist.<p>So we have a woman fearing for her life, sitting in a seat mere centimetres away from the threat, tapping out an accusatory tweet on her smartphone.<p>It might just be me, but in that circumstance with an obvious breach of conference protocol my first reaction would be to leave the immediate vicinity of the threat and find a conference organiser to raise the issue with.<p>Posting it online does nothing to defend against the immediate perceived threat - it just doesn&#x27;t add up.<p>I&#x27;m not saying that Adria shouldn&#x27;t have felt threatened, but her behaviour does not fit the profile of someone in that mental state. Beyond that, public naming and shaming is not the way to deal with this kind of a problem. Talk to an organiser, get the breach of conference policy dealt with in private and if you feel it&#x27;s warranted, post about the experience and how it negatively affected you in a constructive way that doesn&#x27;t cause a witch hunt.<p>All that this stunt has achieved is further marginalisation of female developers; the risk of having an offhand joke resulting in being publicly drawn and quartered just isn&#x27;t worth socialising around them. If this case were handled properly - by talking to the conference organisers and dealing with the breach of policy - this wouldn&#x27;t have become such a huge issue.<p>I don&#x27;t understand why it had to be dealt with in public like this.
300bpsabout 10 years ago
I really have nothing nice to say about Adria Richards. Following my mother&#x27;s advice, that is my only comment.
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tzsabout 10 years ago
What astounds me is that all this fuss was made over a silly dongle joke.<p>If the guy had been overheard quietly telling his friend a joke like, say, The Aristocrats, then I could understand someone getting seriously offended. You don&#x27;t tell a joke like that where there is even a small chance unintended people will here it.<p>But a lame joke based on &quot;dongle&quot; sounding like a dirty word? That&#x27;s a joke that could be told on a children&#x27;t show on TV and not even draw complaints from parents in the Bible Belt.<p>This kind of humor is acceptable for a general family audience on prime time television. For instance, in The Simpsons episode &quot;Bart, the Mother&quot;, Bart raises a pair of lizards that are an illegal invasive species, and Skinner is explaining why they must be killed.<p>Skinnner: It&#x27;s already wiped out the Dodo, the Cuckoo, and the Ne-Ne, and it has nasty plans for the Booby, the Titmouse, the Woodcock, and the Titpecker.<p>Similarly, in the episode &quot;You Kent Always Say What You Want&quot;, where Kent Brockman says a very nasty swear word on live TV, and apparently has gotten away with it.<p>Grampa Simpson: I can&#x27;t believe Kent Brockman got away with it. Back in my day TV stars couldn&#x27;t say boobie, tushie, burp, fanny burp, water closet, underpants, dingle dangle, Boston marriage, LBJ, Titicaca, hot dog or front lumps!<p>Heck, I could easily see a &quot;big dongle&quot; joke being told on NPR on a Saturday morning by Garrison Keillor during the annual &quot;Prairie Home Companion&quot; joke show (which is hilarious, BTW).<p>If your reaction to overhearing such a joke is anything more than rolling your eyes at the childish humor, your offensiveness sensor needs recalibration. I&#x27;ve heard that getting a pet can bring calmness and help you recalibrate. A bird could be a good low maintenance pet for this. I recommend a Titpecker.
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irishloopabout 10 years ago
It is utterly mind-boggling that someone can feel threatened by a comment about big dongles or forking someone&#x27;s repo. I&#x27;m sorry, but at this point, you need to seek professional help, and you are trivializing the threats that many women feel every single day by creating threats and persecution where there is none.
sjtrnyabout 10 years ago
&gt; Another word for software is “repository”<p>Tech reporting in a sentence.
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jeffbushabout 10 years ago
A lot of time is spent talking about Hank and Adria, but most of the damage in these sorts of cases are caused by bystanders: all of us. It feels pretty safe to be part of the crowd pillorying someone else, but I&#x27;m sure we&#x27;ve all said or done something thoughtless in the past that we would be embarrassed about if it were broadcast publicly. And while there is a valid discussion to be had about the environment for women in tech, I don&#x27;t believe this incident has moved that discussion forward. It has put a lot of people on the defensive and made them dig into extreme positions. If there is a moral here, perhaps it is that we should try to be a little less self righteous and see things in a more nuanced way.
DanBCabout 10 years ago
I love Jon Ronson&#x27;s work. He manages to make people appear human. Here, though, Adria comes across really poorly. She blames &quot;Hank&quot; for the (totally unacceptable) abuse she receives, even when she&#x27;s told that he was not in anyway responsible for it.<p>If you get the chance to see his documentaries or listen to his radio shows you should - they&#x27;re good.
MrBuddyCasinoabout 10 years ago
A good writeup with some more background information here:<p><pre><code> https:&#x2F;&#x2F;amandablumwords.wordpress.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;03&#x2F;21&#x2F;3&#x2F; </code></pre> I found it interesting that apparently, Adria has done similar things in the past.
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nsxwolfabout 10 years ago
I didn&#x27;t think my opinion of Adria Richards could actually decrease further, but somehow it just did (assuming the article accurately represented her statements).<p>I want to be charitable to her but these statements are just bad.
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sudioStudio64about 10 years ago
There&#x27;s a real reason why society stopped doing public shaming as punishment. It brings out the worst in everyone.
moominabout 10 years ago
Let&#x27;s be clear here, Jon Ronson spent a fair bit of time lying to Adria Richards to put together his book, his portrayal of the timeline is inaccurate and even if this wasn&#x27;t the case it&#x27;d be a phenomenal amount of false equivalence:<p><a href="http://www.shakesville.com/2015/02/the-falsest-of-false-equivalencies.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.shakesville.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;02&#x2F;the-falsest-of-false-equi...</a><p>TL;DR; Yeah he got fired, but he didn&#x27;t get fired because of an internet backlash.
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konstruktorabout 10 years ago
What angers me most about that conference incident is the indiscriminate public shaming of <i>two</i> people, one of whom was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Imagine being all over the internet because your company sent you to a conference with the wrong guy.
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throwawayawayabout 10 years ago
&gt; He noticed ruefully that a few days earlier the woman – her name was Adria Richards – had herself tweeted a stupid penis joke. She’d suggested to a friend that he put socks down his pants to bewilder TSA agents at the airport.<p>Lot of hypocrisy here! Neither person deserved to lose their job, the whole situation seems to have gotten completely out of hand. Funny how even the smallest hint of acknowledgement or response can keep the snowball rolling.
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Vaskivoabout 10 years ago
<i>sigh</i> This situation is filled to the brim with stupid and (aparently) harmless actions that lead to stupid reactions.<p>- Hank makes a crude joke. This is a stupid, immature action. But harmless. And, imo, he has all the right to make the jokes he wants.<p>- Adria feels offended. I thinks it&#x27;s stupid, but she has all the right to feel that way.<p>- Adria takes picture and publicly shames A in the internet. This is a stupid and dickish action. But, imo, she has all the right to do so.<p>- Adria calls Hank&#x27;s job about the joke. Stupid and dickish action, but she&#x27;s free to do so.<p>- Hank is fired because of joke. Stupid and dickish action.<p>- etc...<p>There is one principle I follow that could&#x27;ve prevented all this:<p>STOP TAKING SERIOUSLY WHAT OTHER PEOPLE SAY!<p>I mean it. Simply ignore it. Unless someone acts upon you, nothing happens. In the long run words mean nothing.<p>This would make Hank&#x27;s employer ignore the phonecall, the internet ignore the public shaming, and Adria ignore the stupid joke. And ignore the harassment.<p>For people in IT, used to work with logic and reason, we should show more maturity and stop believing and caring about these &quot;he-said&#x2F;she-said&quot; internet dramas.
nlyabout 10 years ago
The worst and most ironic part of this story is how 4chans vigilante &#x27;justice&#x27; likely ended up reaffirming Adrias fears surrounding men in the field.<p>For better or worse, 4chan is a supernode in Internet culture, and there&#x27;s certainly some association between it and many other tech and hacker communities. Just look at how many conference presentations these days contain memes that originate on 4chan.<p>The end of the article talks about how Hank no longer trusts himself to talk to women in the workplace, but what about Adria? Regardless of whether her fears were founded, she must now feel totally <i>vindicated</i> and more fearful than ever before.
PaulRobinsonabout 10 years ago
Taking sides in this is the wrong thing to do.<p>The guys should perhaps have been more aware that they could cause offence. She should have perhaps been more aware that photographing and publicly shaming those individuals would have public repercussions she could not anticipate.<p>However it&#x27;s the people taking sides that caused the problem here. It&#x27;s the employers, the haters, the people sending death threats and photoshopping pictures and DDoS&#x27;ing sites and all of that.<p>There&#x27;s no need. Somebody breached a conference code of conduct. Somebody else was offended by that. It should have been an issue between the person who made the joke, the person who complained and the conference organiser.<p>The fact it spilled out into the public domain could be handled if people were not going to take sides and just realised that this was absolutely 100% none of their business, and to reflect that keeping within codes of conduct is a good thing for everybody.<p>But the Real World isn&#x27;t like that. The juvenile idiots on 4chan are more than happy to take a side based on prejudice, cognitive bias and the protection of pseudonymity and behave in an absolutely disgusting way.<p>If you&#x27;re about to do something publicly, be prepared to explain yourself to everybody you know, including your mother.<p>If you&#x27;re about to do something in a semi-public space, same thing applies, and semi-public means using a pseudonym.<p>Everybody involved in this story got it wrong, but the very worst people around this were the people who decided to take it a level of hatred it did not deserve.
dragon88about 10 years ago
Related: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html?_r=0" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;02&#x2F;15&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;how-one-stupid-tw...</a><p>Also related: <a href="http://www.torontosun.com/2015/03/03/phaneuf-lupul-hire-law-firm-over-tweet-aired-on-tsn" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.torontosun.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;03&#x2F;03&#x2F;phaneuf-lupul-hire-law-...</a><p>Basically, someone tweeted a joke about one well-known NHL player banging the wife of his team mate. It appeared on the Twitter ticker on the bottom of a TSN broadcast, whose filters didn&#x27;t catch it. Of course, someone else took a pic of it, posted it online and from there, even more people saw it. Now both the NHL players are suing TSN AND they want to go after the original tweeter. Who definitely had no clue his&#x2F;her tweet would end up on national TV.<p>In both cases, a media outlet shared the original tweet to their massive audiences. Where these tweets would have faded into obscurity, instead they were exposed to the sensibilities of a much larger audience.
davelnewtonabout 10 years ago
I&#x27;m pretty conflicted about this whole thing, and was back then, too.<p>I try to be supportive of anybody, and generally go out of my way to be inclusive. I also make really stupid, juvenile jokes, although I am audience-aware.<p>In this case, his audience was the guy he was sitting next to, and there was nothing overtly threatening in the joke. In fact, if anything, it&#x27;d indicate he was gay and not at all interested in the woman in front of him who overheard him.<p>Ultimately, and this will likely get <i>me</i> in trouble, but I think she handled this in the absolute wrongest way possible.<p>(Reading the old <a href="https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;amandablumwords.wordpress.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;03&#x2F;21&#x2F;3&#x2F;</a> response post largely sums up <i>why</i> I think it was wrong, but I wasn&#x27;t aware of the other times she didn&#x27;t bother trying to resolve things in a way that might actually produce <i>positive</i> results.)<p>The threats made toward her are obviously reprehensible; I don&#x27;t understand that reaction either.
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jacobevelynabout 10 years ago
This feels like a thread in which expressing ANY opinion (except, perhaps, this one) is a potential liability. That realization saddens me.
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rebootthesystemabout 10 years ago
People must be responsible for their actions. Without that society breaks down. Today the Internet is an amplifier of consequences, good or bad. A professional working in the industry isn&#x27;t a professional if they are not in tune with this effect to guide their decision making.<p>It used to be:<p>&quot;Don&#x27;t write anything you would not want the world to see.&quot;<p>For many years this has expanded to:<p>&quot;Don&#x27;t write, say or do anything you would not want the world to see.&quot;<p>The side of the argument is inconsequential. Both parties chose to ignore the potential consequences of the Internet as an amplifier. We are not talking about grandma and grandpa here. We are talking about two Internet pro&#x27;s.<p>Were the consequences fair?<p>Who knows? That is the nature of a positive feedback amplifier: It might not stop until something is destroyed. Ignoring it&#x27;s existence could have one suffer disproportionate consequences. Don&#x27;t ignore it.
S_A_Pabout 10 years ago
I really have trouble with this story. Nearly every aspect was overblown. However maybe I&#x27;m a curmudgeon but I don&#x27;t have a social media profile for the very reason I don&#x27;t want my business out there. I don&#x27;t want to be Internet famous or even real life famous. Secondly how were they able to find someones Twitter profile without knowing her name? Search for #donglejokesarebadmmkay ? None of this makes much sense to me. The firings on both sides are crazy to me. I don&#x27;t know that I have even heard anyone in my company even talk about Twitter much less check up on some scuttlebutt about a conference. It&#x27;s the makings of reality tv drama. Asinine.
dougabugabout 10 years ago
I&#x27;d never heard of Adria Richards before, or I&#x27;d forgotten it as an absurd non-newsworthy event. On reading about the incident, I thought &quot;What a humorless, vindictive [Beelzebub]&quot; I was kinda glad that she got fired.<p>But then I read on, and I found myself having a lot of empathy for her, and for Hank (although what happened to him, as bad as it was was way less intense and scary than what happened to her). I thought they both made (forgivable) mistakes. Their respective employers meted out not very compassionate punishments, those companies come off badly in the article. The public statements by one of the CEO&#x27;s sounds particularly lame and insincere. More human error. The cascade of errors continues into an avalanche. &quot;The Mob&quot;(i.e. the public) <i>really</i> comes off bad in this story.<p>I don&#x27;t think human error leading to more human errors and bad outcomes itself is groundbreaking news. It&#x27;s more the runaway (not so) positive feedback loop that amplifies errors of (bad) judgement and gut level emotions. We evolved in a context where we only had to contend with unintentionally pissing off maybe a few dozens or hundreds of people with our mistakes. Now millions of people can be infuriated&#x2F;whipped up into a cyber lynch mob overnight, and even then it&#x27;s still only a tiny fraction of humanity&#x27;s collective attention.<p>Maybe sites like Twitter and Facebook should think about whether or not they have a responsibility to the victims of Mob crucifixion. Even (especially?) the unsympathetic ones, who arguably may have made their own bed and set fire to it. Some kind of circuit breaker when burning crosses start popping up. Cyber public defenders. &quot;Chill out&quot; buttons.<p>The story made me really feel for Adria. It didn&#x27;t hide the fact that she saw things in a very harsh, b&amp;w way. Her letter to her father may have been a blatant attempt to emotionally manipulate the writer and the audience. But it works, even if so. What kind of hurt would make it necessary to resort to that? I feel her humanity. She deserves a shot of redemption.<p>Great article. The other stories are terrific as well, but maybe this one is more of a Puzzlebox.
fromtheoutsideabout 10 years ago
So there is this internet hate machine and it&#x27;s terrible. The cyber bullying crimes (ok, that&#x27;s probably free speech in the US) and insults are way off, totally disproportionate.<p>But the way she acted, taking a photo and publicly tweeting it? That&#x27;s an attack, I&#x27;m not judging, maybe it was right to take direct action. I&#x27;m just saying if you escalate things you got to be ready for the retaliation. Especially if you are not in a position of power. And let&#x27;s be honest, against culture, against public opinion and the internet hate machine, most of us lose.
OutrageCultureabout 10 years ago
Anyone who is interested in discussing this growing phenomenon may like to check out <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/outrageculture" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;outrageculture</a>
59nadirabout 10 years ago
This article really cemented my opinion that Adria Richards deserved to get fired and should never have a podium from which to shame someone ever again.<p>She&#x27;s clearly a hateful person without any kind of empathy stretching beyond that of her womens&#x27; struggle in tech. There should be no place in tech for people who just can&#x27;t relent. I don&#x27;t know if the comments in this article are cherry picked wildly, but even so, even suggesting that this Hank guy is to blame for her getting fired, when clearly it was her own behaviour.
mkr-hnabout 10 years ago
This debacle was a helpful reminder that we all do things that, out of context, can look really awful, and should be mindful of this when calling people out publicly. Neither of them deserved to be fired or harassed over this.<p>Personally, I have trouble seeing how a lewd joke about one man forking another man&#x27;s repo (and following up with dongle jokes) involves or threatens women in any way, but I wasn&#x27;t there.<p>I almost had sympathy for her, but she blamed the guy for the harassment he faced. That&#x27;s bordering on unforgivable.
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wahsdabout 10 years ago
Seems like their mistake was admitting anything. They should have then just sued her for defamation.<p>This is really nothing more than bullying, self-righteous bullying. Just because you overheard something give you no fucking right to shame someone in public.<p>Maybe their jokes were immature. Maybe humanity should cease thinking about sex. Either way she&#x27;s the one guilty of bullying and should be shamed for the horrible person that she is. Fucking move if you don&#x27;t like what a couple guys are inappropriately joking about.
placeybordeauxabout 10 years ago
It seems like the take-away is that mob justice is increasingly worrying in the Internet age.<p>The two people that were affected barely knew each other and seemingly had no way of absolving themelves.
gaddersabout 10 years ago
Original Hacker News thread, including response from Mr Hank:<p><a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5391667" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5391667</a>
istvan__about 10 years ago
The actual title should be how stupidity can ruin your life. I do not want to live in the world where adults cannot make jokes, even sexual one. He clearly did not direct that to the woman who made a huge scene out of it. Actually, If the guy writes a mail and sends it to his buddy, and the woman reads the mail that is a felony. Why can she make this sort of things when the conversation obviously was not directed to her? This story is just so wrong on so many levels.
vermontdevilabout 10 years ago
Similar case is happening to the two tormentors of Curt Schilling (a former baseball player)&#x27;s daughter.<p>He tweeted congrats to his daughter for going to college. Predictably some of the replies were nasty.<p>He went after two and doxxed them. Now these two will bear the result of what went down.<p><a href="https://38pitches.wordpress.com/2015/03/03/is-it-twitters-fault/" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;38pitches.wordpress.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;03&#x2F;03&#x2F;is-it-twitters-fa...</a><p>I suspect this will happen more and more.
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jccalhounabout 10 years ago
The summary of the article says his book is about &quot;fake indignation.&quot; Who gets to decide what indignation is &quot;fake&quot; and what is &quot;real?&quot;
hackerboosabout 10 years ago
I&#x27;m going to be a cynic and say that Adria took a gamble to raise her profile and it backfired big time.<p>This wasn&#x27;t the first incident of questionable behaviour in conferences. There had been sexist comments, talks and general lude behaviour prior to this.<p>I think she saw the opportunity and forced the situation to fit the narrative (it wasn&#x27;t even a sexist comment) but it quickly got out of hand and resulted in them both suffering severely.
flargabout 10 years ago
FWIW I sympathise with Adria - she seems like the perfect geek (takes no bullcrap, sticks to her guns, overly logical analysis of social situations to the detriment of all); describes me some of the time, and the constant state of some of the people in the teams I have managed over the years; and yet I never once thought of firing any one of them,<p>Shame PyCon and the respective weren&#x27;t able to deal with this in a better way.
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igonvalueabout 10 years ago
Previous discussion on Hacker News of a similar article by the same author:<p><a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9039274" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9039274</a><p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;02&#x2F;15&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;how-one-stupid-tw...</a>
kirualexabout 10 years ago
Everyone can be offended by anything. If your response involve real harmful ramifications for the other person, you&#x27;re the one being a dick.
wvhabout 10 years ago
As someone who genuinely doesn&#x27;t always know what to say out loud and what not, this story never fails to make me emotional and on a personal level – beyond any gender&#x2F;political correctness&#x2F;professionalism debate – I don&#x27;t like people like Adria [as portrayed] very much. I&#x27;m happy people around me are a lot more reasonable.
NumberCruncherabout 10 years ago
When someone asks you if you have made sexual comments about &quot;forking someone’s repo&quot; you say &quot;No&quot;!
jfallonabout 10 years ago
I&#x27;m really trying, but I am having trouble feeling empathy towards her. Once I realized he was fired because of what she did and how proud of herself she was (this is the bad part), I just couldn&#x27;t feel any empathy for her anymore.
donkeydabout 10 years ago
IMHO the discussion should not about these 3 people involved in this particular incident.<p>It should be about everybody just brain farting directly to the internet without realizing there&#x27;s no delete button...
gaddersabout 10 years ago
Seriously, what ever happened to giving people the benefit of the doubt?<p>Some people just don&#x27;t feel fulfilled unless they can log at least 5 micro-agressions against them a day (whatever the fuck they are).
jellicleabout 10 years ago
Threads like this are why I will discourage my daughter from working in the tech industry.<p>It&#x27;s an incredibly toxic blend of misogyny, racism, and entitlement, and doesn&#x27;t even have the self-awareness to understand that about itself.<p>Congratulations to user interpol_p who is valiantly trying to educate people, but it&#x27;s far too much of an uphill battle.<p>If any of you ever decide to do something about it, you have a leading example to follow in the sci-fi&#x2F;fantasy fandom world, which has had the exact same problems as the tech industry and for the same reasons, but which in recent years has made great strides (not without some reactionary pushback). If you ever want to grow up, just check out what the fantasy geeks have done and are doing.
logfromblammoabout 10 years ago
If there is a moral to the story at all, it is this: Using the Internet as a weapon is like swinging nunchucks studded with loosely-attached, razor-sharp blades. Everyone near you gets hurt, but especially you.<p>There is an entire subculture on the Internet entirely devoted to disproving, with a vengeance, the phrase &quot;sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me&quot;. They are trolls, pursuing the idea that a carefully selected assemblage of words can reduce a person to a quivering wreck of human jelly.<p>Then there are the dirt-diggers and the doxers, who will scrutinize your life more carefully than a political party looking for a presidential candidate, and circle with a highlighter every embarrassing thing you have ever done.<p>There are the holy warriors, who will tolerate no heresies against their chosen cause, especially those done unwittingly, in apparent ignorance that a controversy even exists--for the holy warriors on the other side have, of course, already chosen their path to damnation.<p>And there are the cruel pranksters, who will summon a SWAT team to your house, looking for your cash, heroin, and slaves. They&#x27;ll DDoS your employer until you are fired. They&#x27;ll crack your passwords and post dick pics using your account.<p>But there&#x27;s a delicate sort of detente with all these groups. They have, however twisted, a sense of justice. The very worst of them will leave the truly innocent untouched, as though it were all a game, the only legitimate targets are the other players, and cheaters must be punished. The trolls attack pompous, self-righteous windbags. The doxers expose those who abuse their anonymity (such as the trolls and the other doxers). The holy warriors mock those with unfounded or irrational beliefs. And the cruel pranksters follow Machiavelli&#x27;s blueprint to make the Internet respected, through terrorism.<p>These are people who have probably never felt any sort of power before, in any other aspect of their lives. Doing one of those things may be the only time they have ever felt like they ever made a difference in the world, even if it was a difference with dubious worth. Before the Internet, those types of personalities would have to be board members for homeowners&#x27; associations or local government officials or on the council for their churches or civic groups in order to feel more powerful. That limited the scope of the damage they could potentially do.<p>All of this misbehavior that we see on the Internet is a symptom. The cause is (in part) the systematic disenfranchisement of the poor and middle class, around the world. And we turn upon each other, as though to prove that we still matter, somehow.<p>The lede that was buried in the article is this: <i>BOTH OF THE PEOPLE CENTRAL TO THE STORY WERE FIRED FOR BEING VICTIMS</i>.<p>That makes the spineless, sleazy companies that took the easy way out the real bad guys. They were the only ones in the entire situation with any <i>real</i> power, and they opted to stab their own employees in the back and leave them in the gutter for the rats. They opted to eject someone from a presentation over a single complaint from someone who was likely also violating the conference code of conduct.<p>There was no due process. There was no respect for the rights of those affected. There was only corporate expedience, and a complete lack of regard for those negatively affected by it. And they are getting away with it, because we continue to blame the victims.
Bugeabout 10 years ago
She asked his employer to take down his hacker news post? Did she think they would have his account&#x27;s password?
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kitdabout 10 years ago
And to think all she had to do was to turn round, frown and go &quot;Guys, there&#x27;s a time and a place ...&quot;.<p>The golden rule is that, if you disagree with someone, <i>speak</i> to them face-to-face, privately first, then in front of others if that doesn&#x27;t work.<p>Public tweeting is the absolute last recourse. She&#x27;s as susceptible to individuation (behind her keyboard) as he was.
aezeabout 10 years ago
Please excuse my ignorance, but could someone explain to me how the joke about a big dongle was threatening or sexist?<p>A lot of people seem to just be accepting that at face value and I&#x27;m having issues understanding why that joke in particular would make her feel unsafe or uncomfortable. It just doesn&#x27;t strike me as anything that could come across as such.
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fr0ggerrrabout 10 years ago
This gives feminism a bad image.
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tr352about 10 years ago
She failed to anticipate the huge backlash of her actions. Ironically, the goal of her actions was to make sure that <i>his</i> actions would lead to a huge unforeseeable backlash for <i>him</i>.
mbrutschabout 10 years ago
Hank, It Gets Better. Trust me on this. :)
Eye_of_Mordorabout 10 years ago
No one wins an argument.
Dewieabout 10 years ago
&gt; “Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?”<p>Men are afraid that a woman will change&#x2F;ruin their whole lives with just their words.<p>Well, at least that is how &quot;Hank&quot; feels now.
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DownvoteMeToWinabout 10 years ago
“I think that nobody deserves what she went through,” he replied.<p>VS.<p>“Not too bad,” she said. She thought more and shook her head decisively. “He’s a white male. I’m a black Jewish female.&quot;<p>...<p>At what point will we stop tip-toeing around the fact that &quot;social justice&quot; is a curable and preventable mental disorder masking itself as valid criticism?
lurknomoreabout 10 years ago
Terrifying. Glib Twitter scolds are the brownshirts of our era.
aercolinoabout 10 years ago
Clearly not the kind of women we need more in tech... well, we don&#x27;t need fanatics anywhere really.
blackbagboysabout 10 years ago
I&#x27;m curious as to whether Ronson or Esquire&#x27;s fact-checkers verified the horrific details of Adria&#x27;s upbringing.
mrpipabout 10 years ago
I think the reaction against Adria was healthy. Perhaps these sanctimonious SJWs will think twice before they go all upworthy on random people.
mistermannabout 10 years ago
Personally, I condemn anyone who is a vocal activist in the &quot;gender debate&quot; in tech who does not speak up on topics such as this. If you are female and want to genuinely be treated as an <i>equal</i> in tech, you don&#x27;t freak out over minor jokes, and when &quot;one of your own&quot; does, I believe you are obligated to voice your disagreement with the behavior, assuming you even think it is wrong, which might be an incorrect assumption. If you <i>don&#x27;t</i> think it&#x27;s wrong, I never want to work with someone like you. And if this mentality is at all common (I have no idea), purely from a risk management perspective, I would only hire females when they are massively more qualified than any male counterparts.<p>I don&#x27;t like feeling like this, but with what little I know of the public female sentiment on these types of issues, fear and avoidance is the wisest stance.<p>Hopefully situations like this are vast statistical anomalies.
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mooredintyabout 10 years ago
When you see a white man standing in the room, take a moment to think about all the unjustified accusations of racism and sexism he&#x27;s had to endure in his journey to get there<p><a href="https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/530109180460675074" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;adriarichards&#x2F;status&#x2F;530109180460675074</a>