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Coding Like a Girl

115 pointsby aarestadabout 10 years ago

26 comments

mgkimsalabout 10 years ago
A few random thoughts...<p>&quot;Who are you here with?&quot; <i>might</i> be indicating... what company are you here with? Are you with Google, or MS, or... whatever. &quot;Who do you work for?&quot; might be more appropriately direct.<p>I have a pink macbook. I wear pink headphones. You wouldn&#x27;t believe the number of weird&#x2F;sexist comments I get from time to time. Or maybe you would.<p>There was a piece floating around a couple weeks ago about women in tech leaving because they felt bullied out because they were women. While I don&#x27;t doubt that can happen, the &#x27;bullying&#x27; that was described in that article has happened to me - a male - at companies as well. It&#x27;s more cliquish asshole group&#x2F;hivemind behavior than it is sexist. I had multiple people chastise me that I was part of the problem because I was too blind to see it as sexism, and of course a male would simply ascribe this to asshole&#x2F;politics in a company, vs sexism. Even though the <i>exact</i> same behavior (and outcomes) had been leveled at me, a male, apparently if the same behavior happens to a female, the motivation&#x2F;intention <i>must</i> be sexism and dealt with through that filter.
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spiffymanabout 10 years ago
I posted this on FB last night and had quite a discussion ensue. I really like what the author has to say about assumptions. As a user group and conference organizer, time and time again I have seen men approach feminine people in the crowd with these just terribly naïve prejudices. &quot;Oh, you must be a junior dev.&quot; Or &quot;Who are you here with?&quot; We men should absolutely try to set these poor assumptions aside -- if not for better equality (although why not?), then because of the awkwardness that ensues when someone says &quot;No, actually I&#x27;m giving the keynote&quot; or &quot;Yeah, I co-wrote that book.&quot; If you don&#x27;t want to look like an idiot on the regular, don&#x27;t go around the world thinking every competent person looks&#x2F;acts&#x2F;dresses&#x2F;talks the way you do.
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logic404about 10 years ago
<i>A couple years ago she attended a technical conference and on the first day, she wore a dress...wore a nerdy t-shirt and jeans instead, and she had a better experience that day. People assumed she was technical and didn’t dilute their explanations to her</i><p>I&#x27;m not sure this really makes the case that its sexism at play. For example, if a guy wore a suit and tie to a conference, people might assume he&#x27;s not a programmer.<p>Isn&#x27;t this anecdote evidence that its the clothes, not the gender?
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thomasmarcelisabout 10 years ago
One thing I don&#x27;t agree with, how is the following feedback gender-specific?:<p>“Why are your slides so pink? It’s very distracting.”<p>“Stop pushing your hair behind your ear when you present. It’s very distracting.”<p>“Your voice goes up after every sentence you say.”<p>I feel like this is all valid feedback. Back in university we would also get feedback on our behaviour during our presentations or the look of our slides.
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grey-areaabout 10 years ago
<i>Assume people are as or more qualified than you.</i><p>I think this is a great rule to apply to your dealings with anyone of whatever appearance or gender - often our assumptions about people are wildly inaccurate (and we make hundreds before they&#x27;ve opened their mouth, and lots more after the first sentence). If they&#x27;re not more qualified, they&#x27;ll make it clear, and if they are more qualified&#x2F;intelligent, maybe you&#x27;ll learn something from them. You should always be prepared to learn from someone whoever they are, and never make assumptions about them based on gender, appearance, culture etc. it&#x27;s not only rude, it&#x27;s just ignorance. It is important to note though that just because this is a problem everyone faces in some small way on either side of interactions every day, it&#x27;s one which women face to a radically different degree.<p>I recently had someone at work criticise a page as <i>too girly</i> to our team including women. The same thing has happened to women I know who are doctors, architects and lawyers - competence is questioned or undervalued simply because they&#x27;re a woman. It&#x27;s hard to know where to start in responding to comments like that, and it&#x27;s still happening in 2015, so I find this #likeagirl campaign justified and timely. It&#x27;s time for people to speak out whenever they see this sort of prejudice masked as concern or advice, and stop making the workplace such a hostile environment for women. I&#x27;d love to think that by the time my daughter grows up we&#x27;ll be over this sort of thing.<p>It is really disturbing the number of dismissive and hostile comments we see on posts about women on HN. Most stories on this topic devolve into flamewars or at best are littered with negative responses saying this is a problem everyone faces or it&#x27;s not really a problem at all. Good articles like this reporting personal experience widely shared deserve better. How can we change that?
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andrewlabout 10 years ago
Richard Hamming discusses clothing, presentation, and the cost of not conforming to expectations in <i>You and Your Research</i>.[1]. It&#x27;s not exactly analogous to what&#x27;s described in the article, but related:<p><i>John Tukey almost always dressed very casually. He would go into an important office and it would take a long time before the other fellow realized that this is a first-class man and he had better listen.For a long time John has had to overcome this kind of hostility. It&#x27;s wasted effort!</i><p>There are several paragraphs in that section, all worth reading (as is the entire essay).<p>[1] <a href="http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cs.virginia.edu&#x2F;~robins&#x2F;YouAndYourResearch.html</a>
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Bahamutabout 10 years ago
I&#x27;ve been thinking about this problem some today - I have some girl friends who are talented and successful as developers, but their personas are drastically different from many men in the field. One is shy and soft-spoken, not aggressive at all, and she has been successful as a developer at Google for around 10 years. Another is very smart, but also someone who hates conflict. Both of these share a lot of interests in games &amp; their music (one is in a video game music cover band that has performed at numerous conventions &amp; concerts). They both are very much against brogrammer culture.<p>I think this article has some excellent advice - we should be considering what men &amp; women say purely on merit, not who is most tireless in arguing a point, or emotional over a perspective - exploring the depths of what each person is suggesting is important. For those on the opposite end of a result, we need to show empathy towards them - they are still our co-workers. Otherwise, we are not putting them in the position to succeed, and are putting undue burden on other people&#x27;s lives that often are not accounted for in performance reviews.
tzsabout 10 years ago
&gt; I have been a TA for weekend workshops that teach women to code. My male co-TA’s constantly asked me throughout the workshop how I was enjoying learning to program.<p>This one confuses me. I would expect that at these workshops all the TAs are introduced to each other before teaching begins, and so if the male TAs are trying to be funny, this would stop after the second one does this and is dismissed from the event (I&#x27;m presuming that after the first one does it, she tells him that she does not find it funny, and so the second one constitutes harassment). This should not be happening constantly, and I&#x27;d expect word to spread so it no longer happens at future events.<p>If the TAs are not introduced to each other, and are not wearing prominent tags or something that identifies them as TAs (and the students are not wearing anything that prominently identifies them as students), then given that women are are very underrepresented among programmers and that women are massively overrepresented among the students (it&#x27;s a workshop to teach women to code), then the male TAs are doing nothing wrong. TAs should be proactively asking students if they are enjoying themselves. Note that if they first asked if the person was a student, they would be kind of committing the &quot;you don&#x27;t look like a programmer&quot; offense.<p>I find the second case hard to believe, because I doubt these workshops would be so huge that the TAs would not all learn who all the other TAs are when setting up before the students arrive, so what the heck is going on?
polarixabout 10 years ago
Something is twisted in all these discussions of gender in tech, it really seems like we&#x27;re just going around in circles over and over again. I&#x27;ve never read anything that felt like a particularly insightful explication of the cause here.<p>Is it possible there&#x27;s something more fundamental in society that this phenomenon is merely a symptom of, and that the fix is not going to be something like &quot;just challenge yourself to detect and resist unconscious bias&quot;? Could there be something inherent in the structure of our framework of social interaction that incentivizes this kind of behavior?
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wyagerabout 10 years ago
90% of the complaints in the article have nothing to do with gender.<p>Putting obnoxious pastel colors in a powerpoint is bad regardless of your gender. Fidgeting while presenting is bad regardless of gender.<p>People tell me I don&#x27;t look like a programmer all the time, mostly because I hardly ever wear branded t-shirts and shorts.
danielmiesslerabout 10 years ago
I hear and feel the frustration, but it&#x27;s misplaced.<p>If a man shows up to a tech conference dressed like the guys from Jersey Shore, he&#x27;s going to be looked down on by everyone there. He&#x27;ll be assumed to be part of the delivery people doing setup for the booths.<p>If he complains that he&#x27;s a programmer and that he shouldn&#x27;t be judged by his clothing, he will get mixed results.<p>It&#x27;s true that if he turns out to be a nice guy, and a great programmer, then people will change their opinions of him.<p>But the one thing we cannot do is demand that the entire world see signals differently than they see them out on the street.<p>When someone dresses like the men on Jersey Shore, they do so because they are signaling certain things. They&#x27;re signaling masculine power. Strength. Sexual prowess. Fighting ability. Etc.<p>Women who dress extremely femininely and girlishly are also sending signals that literally BILLIONS of people already know how to receive.<p>Don&#x27;t be surprised when people interpret signals the way that is most beneficial to them in 99.9% of cases.<p>This is not a message that men from New Jersey or Women in general cannot be seen as programmers. It&#x27;s a message that signaling matters, and we must be aware of what messages we&#x27;re intentionally sending to others that we may need to overcome.
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dsugarmanabout 10 years ago
&gt;One category of reactions that I receive all the time as a programmer that presents as feminine is: No one believes I am a programmer.<p>To be fair, I am a guy and no one believes I am a programmer either. Going through YC, it took maybe 3 or 4 times of pg telling me to talk to my technical co-founder followed by me reminding him that it was me before he caught on. In my opinion, it can be a real strength to be different. Some of the most intelligent programmers I have ever worked with have been girls and I have fought incredibly hard to hire them and others on to our tech team only to be beaten by a tech giant who offer big premiums or more security when securing a visa. I know I am not the only one in this boat.
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pincubatorabout 10 years ago
Reminds me when I was an instructor for a grad course and showed up in a very trendy outfit to the first lecture (nothing weird or revealing, but nothing you would often see in a campus either -- full make up, high heels, ripped jeans etc.) and I can&#x27;t forget the look in the student&#x27;s faces. I was trying to explain an algorithm on the board, and all students had a look in their faces like &quot;you can&#x27;t possibly know about this&quot;. When the class is over and the professor of the next class showed up, he had a grin on his face like &quot;you can&#x27;t possibly teach a class&quot;. Fast forward to 2 weeks later, when I was overwhelmed with the exams and didn&#x27;t give a single damn anymore, I just showed up with my sweatpants, a hoodie, and no makeup. Students were listening the class with full focus and I was well respected. Not sure what to make out of this..<p>The funny thing is: I am programming since I was 17, and spent most of my youth in full-geeky and nerdy outfits (aka, in &quot;programmer&quot; style). But after I come to my mid-20s I started to feel like &quot;Oh, I didn&#x27;t even wear a dress or a high-heel in my entire life!!!11&quot;. That&#x27;s when I started to dress like a woman, and that&#x27;s what happens :&#x27;)
gaiusabout 10 years ago
The dress story vs jeans, would apply equally to a guy in a suit and tie vs a hoodie.
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Roboprogabout 10 years ago
I think some of this has to do with age, as well.<p>As the middle age father of two twenty-ish daughters, one of which is VERY bright, and somebody with decades of work experience, I have met a number of very bright women, and I don&#x27;t think I would discriminate against female coworkers.<p>However, if your peer group is twenty-something men, good luck getting them not to think of you as a twenty-something woman as a potential mate, at least from time to time, rather than &quot;just another coworker&quot;. They might want to complement your dress or appearance due to ulterior motives. Not that they shouldn&#x27;t be polite.<p>Please be sure not to mistake desperation for discrimination :-)<p>Disclaimer: some people <i>are</i> just assholes, sorry.
kelukelugamesabout 10 years ago
i opened this tab and today&#x27;s dilbert strip at the same time. <a href="http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-03-07" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;dilbert.com&#x2F;strip&#x2F;2015-03-07</a>
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colundabout 10 years ago
The more people emphasize the differences between men and women the less likely the bad stereotypes are to go away. People whine and repeat about gender differences.<p>I&#x27;d prefer we all just disagree when someone says something is girly. Man up and stand up for men and women&#x27;s rights to be judged as people not gender without whining when someone fails to do so.
hippichabout 10 years ago
May be this will be not very popular, but there are reasons males react this way to females in dresses in tech conferences. I agree that we all should have our mind more open, but by the age of ~25 we all got our stereotypes in our heads based on our family, sitcoms&#x2F;movies, radios, school&#x2F;friends, etc.<p>This is no different from assumptions based on race, age, or sexual preferences. Assumptions, wrong or right, are the way our mind optimize&#x2F;systemize knowledge, and removing all assumptions whatsoever - I don&#x27;t think it is good idea (if it would be possible.) I am afraid, there is no quick hack and culturally we as a whole should steer our perception. This is hard work which will take time.
graycatabout 10 years ago
Three points that seem to say that the girls&#x2F;women should do well in <i>information technology</i>:<p>(1) Advantages.<p>As I recall from K-12, college, and more, in several respects of <i>talent</i>, <i>interest</i>, <i>diligence</i>, <i>psychology</i>, <i>socialization</i>, etc., the girls&#x2F;women (<i>girls</i> here and below) are, on average, significantly better than the boys&#x2F;men (<i>boys</i> here and below). So, the girls have some significant advantages.<p>Of course, coding, information technology, computing, etc. consist of &quot;clean indoor work, no heavy lifting&quot;.<p>With those advantages and the nature of the work, it would appear that any girls who want to do well in <i>coding</i>, etc. have a good shot, often better than that of the boys.<p>(2) Evaluation.<p>How to evaluate the girls?<p>As in the OP, is it important for the girls to wear pretty, feminine clothes versus <i>nerd</i> wear of worn jeans and T-shirts?<p>No. The main issue is getting the work done.<p>When I was a student, it seemed that the girls got graded on their work, not their clothes; when I was a professor giving grades, again the only issue for a grade was the work. Thus, it seems to me that, in the world of work in <i>information technology</i>, the easy, natural, obvious approach is just to evaluate the work, ignoring clothing, gender, etc.<p>(3) Writing.<p>In computing, we need to build on the work of others, but to do so we need a good description of that work. That is, we need good documentation.<p>Thus, to me, currently the main bottleneck to progress in information technology is bad documentation from poor writing. Since in school on average the girls were better at writing than the boys, I have to believe that girls can be quite welcome and do well improving the quality of the writing and, thus, help alleviate the bottleneck.<p>If my startup works, then I will have to hire, and I will expect a person who does some work will also write the relevant documentation. Here the girls should have an advantage.
wesleyyabout 10 years ago
This same article was posted on r&#x2F;programming yesterday (<a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2y4294/coding_like_a_girl/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;programming&#x2F;comments&#x2F;2y4294&#x2F;coding_l...</a>). The discussion following was quite interesting, especially this one comment regarding the twitter exchange (<a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2y4294/coding_like_a_girl/cp6g1dj" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;programming&#x2F;comments&#x2F;2y4294&#x2F;coding_l...</a>).<p>&quot;I&#x27;m not trying to say the whole article is bad so stay with me here, but is it just me or does some of this just come off as negative thinking and negative assumptions? A few examples from the article.. I have been a TA for weekend workshops that teach women to code. My male co-TA’s constantly asked me throughout the workshop how I was enjoying learning to program. ... ....Apparently, presenting as feminine makes you look like a beginner. You were at an event to teach women to code. I don&#x27;t know the specifics because I wasn&#x27;t there however maybe the assumption should be that they just didn&#x27;t realise you weren&#x27;t a student? I can understand how that must be frustrating but why attribute it to what you were wearing? I feel like the author didn&#x27;t go into detail here. In another section the author links to a photo on twitter[1] that makes it appear as a commenter is telling Casey Johnston to read her own article. Casey Johnston: So many “solutions” to the lack of women in tech don’t get at the actual problems… Tomas Sancio: @caseyjohnston read the full article. There&#x27;s a chicken and egg problem w&#x2F; female tech role models. Men want to be the next Jobs&#x2F;Gates&#x2F;etc. When I first read this screenshot I took it for what it was. &quot;read the article&quot;... i.e. &quot;I read the article&quot; and that&#x27;s exactly what it turned out to be when I found the tweets[2] . The author putting this screenshot of twitter in here I feel is simply misrepresenting the situation or hasn&#x27;t researched into even looking at the full context? I have to admit i&#x27;ve only looked at this for 10 minutes, maybe I&#x27;m getting the wrong picture here, but from what i&#x27;ve seen it&#x27;s a completely different story to the one shown on the author&#x27;s page. I often read these gender inequality articles, however I am always constantly disappointed when things like the above are over dramatized, or I do additional research to only find out that the author is presenting an incredibly biased view of a situation. I don&#x27;t want people to conclude that there is no gender inequality, however I feel that things like the above do not help get the point across. In fact I think they do the opposite.&quot;
EGregabout 10 years ago
I remember the uproar about a guy was on the team that landed a spacecraft on a comet, but who then came out of his den with tattoos and a t-shirt that seemed to depict women clothed in lingerie engaging in BDSM. The accomplishments were brushed aside as the guy was reduced to a tearful apology.<p>I think both sexes should be able to wear whatever they would wear in real life. Depending on the job of course. But when programming, that seems reasonable. I would probably <i>prefer</i> a woman who presents as feminine, as a developer. Maybe that is because I am comfortable with traditional gender dress and think it looks better. But maybe it&#x27;s because I think the nerdy dress is actually downplaying the feminine qualities in order to fit in with men. Either way, it seems anything you say on the issue can always be spun as sexist, because your preferences can be explained by a lifetime if conditioning.<p>Unmarried women out-earn men now, but the situation switches when they have children. Is this bad or good? That would imply a goal. For my part I don&#x27;t understand why or when the goal became for &quot;all women&quot; to start knocking themselves out for 10 hours a day at a corporation and be paid more than their husbands who would share child rearing duties just so women could move up a corporate ladder. Since when is this forcefed as &quot;success&quot; to women? I think, if anything, the agenda itself is sexist. If some women want to do it, they can - there are plenty of opportunities for women who want to work long hours and engage in corporate culture. But in this economy, I think it&#x27;s actually an exploitative myth being sold to men and women alike, and I don&#x27;t think many women actually want to maximize their &quot;success&quot; in this dimension, once they consider the trade offs.
kelukelugamesabout 10 years ago
Any else reminded of PG&#x27;s article on how showmanship is more important than logic in a talk?<p><a href="http://paulgraham.com/speak.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;paulgraham.com&#x2F;speak.html</a>
mritsabout 10 years ago
If you worked where I do (on Earth) you will be judged for your gender,age,race,education,social standing, where you grew up, hygiene, personality, religion, etc...
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hasenjabout 10 years ago
Honestly? It sounds like she&#x27;s asking for conflict.<p>&gt; It was then that I was 100% sure my dressing up wasn’t for him at all, I didn’t at all care if a partner disliked my dresses, or makeup. I was wearing them for me. And it was then, that I realized that continuing to wearing dresses just for myself was a totally valid way to say a big FUCK YOU to the patriarchy.<p>If I wore a suit to work just to appear&#x2F;feel &quot;elite&quot; (i.e. of higher social status) about myself, I would totally not be surprised if my behavior is met with animosity from my fellow developers who mostly dress down or just dress casually.<p>&gt; But she did and wore a nerdy tshirt and jeans instead, and she had a better experience that day. People assumed she was technical and didn’t dilute their explanations to her.<p>So it&#x27;s not about being a female developer, it&#x27;s about the image you&#x27;re presenting of yourself.
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kj22about 10 years ago
I associate people who believe throwing or acting &quot;like a girl&quot; means doing it half-assed or terribly with people who are either uneducated, close-minded, or just plain assholes.<p>I understand there&#x27;s a problem in our country, even in our whole world, but is forcing this down our throats the proper way to solve it? Is it solvable? Not to sound like an asshole myself, but with the route feminism is taking us, we&#x27;re going to have people hand-feeding women who don&#x27;t deserve to be in a specific role. I myself have specifically experienced such an event where my manager hired a woman because he said we need to hire one, not because she had experience that made her worthy. In fact she had far less experience compared to the other people interviewing. One of my best friends on the other hand is one of the most kickass programmers I have ever seen and everyone respects her for it. She works for her status, rather than feeding off of being a woman.<p>People shouldn&#x27;t judge a book by its cover, as they say. That&#x27;s what this is all about and I may have gone off-track. However, its also naive to forget or completely deny that people are inherently competitive. People like to boast about themselves, not others. Woman or man, work politics are something everyone has to deal with. It&#x27;s wrong for someone to use a woman&#x27;s gender against her competitively, but then again it&#x27;s also wrong for a man to throw another man &quot;under the bus&quot; or take credit for someone else&#x27;s work to get ahead. I hope that one day we can work towards being better to humans as a whole rather than better towards a specific gender or race. Maybe I&#x27;m an asshole, who knows. Maybe we are all assholes.
tymskiabout 10 years ago
“Why are your slides so pink? It’s very distracting.” “Stop pushing your hair behind your ear when you present. It’s very distracting.” “Your voice goes up after every sentence you say.” and comments rating my appearance.<p>My Technical Communications professor told me to not add flashy colors to my slides, be careful about too much distracting movement especially hand movements, speak consistently and wear clothing that doesn&#x27;t distract from the material.<p>Either she is sexist towards men or this article is desperate. I think it might be the former, but I could be wrong.