TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Social Norms and Gendered Expectations

17 pointsby webologyabout 10 years ago

4 comments

A_COMPUTERabout 10 years ago
The only thing I disagree with here is the idea that assertiveness is uniquely or predominately associated with white men, and that it&#x27;s a problem to be solved (that&#x27;s how I read her, anyway.) To me, there are two problems to be solved here, the first is that women are uniquely punished for being assertive; the second is that, in my opinion, you need a mix of assertive and relatively unassertive people in your organization to accomplish the most, but being assertive will naturally get you more attention, money, etc, which can create an imbalance in staff rewards. So I would not say that the problem is assertiveness in any way whatsoever (insofar as you are not being abusive eg interrupting) but of mediating the two groups and assigning appropriate compensation for individual staffers&#x27; abilities.<p>I initially had a slightly defensive impression about the article, but I ended up agreeing with it.
asgard1024about 10 years ago
I hate to say this, but she will just have to get over it. People have biases, and are not entirely rational (in fact, if anything, we are machines built to rationalize to other people what we deserve).<p>The article goes to the ridiculous area, which is trending in the U.S.: Taking on the impossible task to train people to avoid these &quot;unconscious&quot; biases. It will a be a lot wasted effort, for ultimately impossible goal.<p>Let&#x27;s assume there is a surgical procedure that lets you get of your biases. Would you do it? Are you going to require people to undergo the procedure? At some point, we just have to accept the biases, because the cost to get rid of them is too high.<p>And even if I would accept her solution, one of the big biases is that we judge similar faces to our own more positively. How are we ever going to get rid of that bias? For a given minority, you can perhaps consciously think, &quot;Am I here biased?&quot;. But for person which looks differently than you? How can you even know you are biased?<p>Finally, I would like to warn, attempts to correct bias may create more bias, overshadowing any bias that was originally there. For instance, if you have positive discrimination, people may think that minorities have a leg up thanks to it, and may judge them more harshly.<p>I don&#x27;t think any amount of anti-bias training will change people&#x27;s biases. What does change them is role-models, and yes, in biased environment, these require hard work, on part of people who don&#x27;t want to be perceived in biased fashion. Tough cookie.
评论 #9274634 未加载
JoeAltmaierabout 10 years ago
tl;dr: Interesting summary of the issues. Not much actionable at the end.
评论 #9271926 未加载
评论 #9273232 未加载
malandrewabout 10 years ago
<p><pre><code> behavior like assertiveness, dominance, or even interrupting </code></pre> I&#x27;ve observed these behaviors in both women as well and people who aren&#x27;t white. What&#x27;s common among these &quot;exceptions&quot; and the &quot;white males&quot; who exhibit these traits is that they typically have a very aspie&#x2F;autistic brain with a strong focus on constructivism and proofs. There are also plenty of white males who are not assertive, dominant and interrupt. And many white males are interrupted by other white males that are assertive and dominant. Women and non-whites are not the only ones who experience being interrupted by assertive and dominant individuals.<p>If you&#x27;re wrong about something (or perceived to be wrong about something) in a discussion with someone (of either gender) who scores high on having systemizing cognitive traits and mind-blindness, you&#x27;ll likely experience them interrupting you to assert their dominance about why you are wrong through proofs and&#x2F;or deductive reasoning.<p>Research indicates that the main correlative factor with these behaviors is likely exposure to higher levels of fetal testosterone. While it is statistically more common for males to be exposed to high levels of fetal testosterone, females exposed to high levels of fetal testosterone also exhibit similar personalities&#x2F;behaviors. Levels of fetal testosterone exposure are more predictive than gender insofar as measures of systematizing and likelihood of mind blindness is concerned.<p>Focusing on this being a &quot;gendered&quot; issue leads you to ignore other factors that may be more predictive (and possibly causative, but there&#x27;s nothing conclusive yet) than what sex chromosomes someone has.<p>Check out the research work from Simon Baron Cohen from the longitudinal Cambridge Child Development Study.<p><a href="http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/project_15_foetaltst" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.autismresearchcentre.com&#x2F;project_15_foetaltst</a><p>FWIW, I am one of those assertive, dominant individuals that interrupts others often. I try to be cognizant of this &quot;habit&quot; of mine. I interrupt white males way way way more often than I interrupt those who are not male or white. I happen to be a white male and aspie. As I have these traits, it&#x27;s much easier for me to recognize it in others irrespective of gender and race.<p>A great contributing factor to interrupting others is that I have an incredibly hard time picking up on the facial and voice inflection cues that indicate that someone is done speaking. I often perceive someone as being done with their thought when they actually are not. When I err on the side of being conservative and really wait for it to be obvious that someone is done speaking, it results in me missing the opportunity to speak next and someone with a greater capacity to realize when someone is done speaks up before I get the chance. Because of this I either end up in scenarios where I interrupt more often than I should or not having any opportunity to speak. It&#x27;s quite challenging to find the sweet spot where my timing is such where I can pick up on when someone is done talking and speak next without interrupting them.
评论 #9283809 未加载