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About 1400 Words of Skepticism about Markdown, and an Imagined Alternative

25 pointsby rhythmvsalmost 10 years ago

5 comments

teaneedzalmost 10 years ago
I&#x27;m a huge fan of <i>Markdown</i> because it frees up extra taps&#x2F;pecks on the keyboard with the knowledge that my final document is portable and understandable in its raw unrendered plain text to non-techies.<p>I expect all my documents to be web friendly also. Markdown ensures that extra tweaks (more work) will not be necessary when rendering my MD file for the web.<p>Blockquotes inside paragraphs are harder on the eyes - best kept as block elements for web reading.<p>Inline quotes are sufficiant for snippets of quotes within paragraphs - for most use-cases.<p>Markdown keeps things simple while enforcing good web writing practises for non-HTML folks or those of us who just want to focus on content and not tags in my opinion. I guess the semantic web is less a concern for me with Markdown because I&#x27;m focused on the final deliverable, a willing trade-off of a little non-semantic for the portability and readability benefits.<p>The bottom line for me is producing content with the least barriers. MD always seems to fit the bill.
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thristianalmost 10 years ago
I get the feeling this is one of the reasons John Gruber was so annoyed by the CommonMark effort - he felt his invention, the thing he called &#x27;Markdown&#x27;, was the idea of a human-friendly pidgin syntax for a more complex markup format. His <i>personal</i> Markdown implementation happened to target HTML, because that&#x27;s what he personally needed, but I guess he expected all kinds of markdowns for all kinds of document syntaxes, with varying similarity to the one he wrote himself.<p>The idea of constraining Markdown to one particular syntax targeting one particular document type must have seemed like epically missing the point... which is a common outcome when a new idea meets popular approval.<p>From that point of view, Markdown&#x27;s nearest relative would be AsciiDoc, which is a toolkit for making simple pidgins for the DocBook XML syntax. That tool happens to come with some reasonable defaults you can use as a base, but sure enough there&#x27;s now the AsciiDoctor tool, which hard-codes AsciiDoc&#x27;s defaults instead of re-implementing the generic framework.
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znpyalmost 10 years ago
Did you guys try Emacs&#x27; org-mode? I feel its syntax to be similar to markdown but way more powerful.
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mdpmalmost 10 years ago
So, something like jade then? If your annoyances are semantics and the verbosity of other markups. Roll your own semantics with +mixins, and otherwise, just write HTML, without the fluff?<p>Human readable, concise, fluent, and HTML is a lingua franca of its own. Even in jade, I still make frequent use of the :md filter for simple text, but otherwise, structure is utterly up to you. Markdown alone doesn&#x27;t quite cut it even for CMS style &#x27;content-block-goes-here&#x27; editing.
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dredmorbiusalmost 10 years ago
First off, Chris expand your acronyms. LaTeX is sufficiently well known there&#x27;s no need for that. The Text Encoding Initiative, (which doesn&#x27;t seem to be an actual encoding standard?), despite being active since the 1980s, and my own use of various markup systems since about the same time, was unknown to me:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Text_Encoding_Initiative" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Text_Encoding_Initiative</a><p>Even knowing that, it&#x27;s not clear what problem exactly TEI solves.<p>Second: what&#x27;s your goal? <i>How are you looking to use Markdown?</i><p>For offline use in your <i>own</i> document preparation activities, I think Chris answered his own question. Markdown is extensible via HTML. If you want to use <i>semantic</i> elements such as &lt;em&gt;emphasized text&lt;&#x2F;em&gt; or &lt;cite&gt;Some Famous Book&lt;&#x2F;cite&gt;, then simply include those elements within your own source document.<p>A lot of us are using Markdown on third-party sites -- for myself it turns up on Reddit, Ello, Diaspora, and StackExchange ... in a mazy of twisty passages, all different. And I really <i>don&#x27;t</i> have control over what&#x27;s parsed or supported (Ello&#x27;s lack of blockquote and Reddit&#x27;s lack of images both drive me equally nuts).<p>To a large extent, for works of a few dozen to 10,000 words, possibly even longer, <i>heading structured documents work great</i>. Markdown is just that: a quick and only slightly dirty way to create content for which presentation specification (e.g., bold and italic specs) is more than sufficient. I mean, yeah, it&#x27;s fucking wonderful that HTML has, <i>in theory</i>, all this wonderful semantic markup. Dig into the source of pretty much any site out there, with <i>very</i> few exceptions, and you&#x27;ll find they&#x27;re simply butchered. Table layouts and &lt;font&gt; directives for titles and headings and absolute positioning all over the page.... Or worse, custom styles which make even &lt;i&gt; and &lt;b&gt; look stunningly attractive.<p>If anything, documents tend to go to the <i>other</i> extreme: too many entities, too much markup, too much crud, too much design. To the point that I&#x27;m far too frequently scraping raw text from documents and rebuilding them (usually with Markdown) to a simple basic PDF or HTML page <i>that I can actually fucking read.</i><p>OCD, it&#x27;s a hell of a drug.<p>My suggestion: get over it.<p><i>You cannot get both a SIMPLE and a COMPLETE markup language.</i> One is the enemy of the other.<p>Settle for good enough.<p>The problems I&#x27;ve got with Markdown (or any of the other lightweight markup languages: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Lightweight_markup_language" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Lightweight_markup_language</a>) is that standards aren&#x27;t, parsers and interpreters (particularly on third-party sites) vary and&#x2F;or suck, and stuff I&#x27;d really like to see (superscript, subscript, footnot, ToC generators, equation support) aren&#x27;t well supported. Hell, we can&#x27;t even rely on blockquotes, images, character escaping, and superscripts being uniformly treated.<p>Use Mardown. Or switch to another LWML. And extend it with HTML. Use post-processing scripts to add those div wrappers and metadata you want (I&#x27;m basically doing the same for my own work).<p>The one other element that might make sense, and which you don&#x27;t address, is a document standard -- I&#x27;d <i>really</i> appreciate if documents had standard metadata: title, author, publication date. Something vaguely like an RFC #822 of text document metadata (and fortunately we&#x27;ve got *so many standards to choose from: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Metadata_standards" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Metadata_standards</a> -- Ob xkcd 927).<p>It&#x27;s also not clear how or why LaTeX itself isn&#x27;t suitable here. It&#x27;s plaintext, more structured than Markdown, yet generally easier to code than HTML.<p>I do appreciate the tip on ScholarlyMarkdown, which looks like it might address a few of my own interests.
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