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We apologize

177 pointsby nahiluhmotalmost 10 years ago

22 comments

westernmostcoyalmost 10 years ago
Why did this apology come out today and not before Pao spoke to news outlets about this topic? Why wouldn&#x27;t you try to talk to your upset users quickly and directly?<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;07&#x2F;04&#x2F;technology&#x2F;reddit-moderators-shut-down-parts-of-site-over-executives-dismissal.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;07&#x2F;04&#x2F;technology&#x2F;reddit-moderato...</a> <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.npr.org&#x2F;sections&#x2F;alltechconsidered&#x2F;2015&#x2F;07&#x2F;05&#x2F;420296522&#x2F;reddit-ceo-says-miscommunication-led-to-blackout-protest" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.npr.org&#x2F;sections&#x2F;alltechconsidered&#x2F;2015&#x2F;07&#x2F;05&#x2F;420...</a>
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jeletonskellyalmost 10 years ago
As someone who has been using reddit for nearly a decade, I can&#x27;t help but find this whole thing to be completely absurd. Mods are claiming they&#x27;re the backbone of the whole site, which is complete nonsense. It&#x27;s the internet; one person steps down, there are thousands to replace them... just like reddit and other sites have always worked. The whole organized &quot;blackout&quot; just felt like a bunch of people on a power trip who didn&#x27;t want to step away because that would be relinquishing some sort of internet &quot;status.&quot; When did it get so complicated?
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jonjenkalmost 10 years ago
This is a pretty shitty apology. The key problem is that ekjp isn&#x27;t owning the failures directly. Just look at the language in the post...<p>&quot;We screwed up.&quot; &quot;We haven’t communicated well...&quot; &quot;we acknowledge this long history of mistakes...&quot;<p>This type of language shows a lack of ownership and accountability of the author. It&#x27;s a huge red flag. If one of my employees wrote something like this I would never have accepted it.<p>A good apology would have started with something like, &quot;I am sorry.&quot; Everything that happens at a company is ultimately the CEO&#x27;s responsibility. The language used in ekjp&#x27;s apology does little to reassure me that she actually feels like she owns the failures.
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emehrkayalmost 10 years ago
I like Reddit, a lot, but the community is shit. I read this apology and then Ellen&#x27;s reply and that has negative 55 hundred votes. They have no real reason to dislike her. They have no real reason to be mad at the one woman being fired. They&#x27;re just coming off as a bunch of upset kids with some &quot;authority&quot; in the form of votes or moderation.<p>As a casual user I have no need to dislike Ellen or feel slighted by the woman being fired. But the hive have decided those are the things that the community should do (and dislike Justin Beiber and Kanye West and whatever else), and the community does it. I can&#x27;t even get a straight answer as to why they&#x27;re upset.<p>Children are emotional.
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anthony_romeoalmost 10 years ago
There were a few components associated with this recent upheaval.<p>- Earlier that week, reddit modified the search function which (though I don&#x27;t know the details as I am not a mod and really don&#x27;t care) apparently affected or limited the moderators&#x27; abilities is some negative manner.<p>- The banning of harassing subreddits, though none of the lurkers cared at all and the majority of active users did not care, left a sour taste in many users&#x27; mouths.<p>- The firing of that employee apparently greatly affected the ability to facilitate the most popular subreddit on the website, as well as a few others.<p>When the mods of IAMA closed shop for a while due to the third issue, the powder keg exploded, leading others who disliked the treatment of mods and those who irrationally hate the reddit CEO to make a hullabaloo for eight hours.<p>Frankly, I deleted my reddit account due to this. Not for any dislike the CEO or a desire to stand up for mods&#x27; rights, but rather because I genuinely do not care about the drama anymore and would rather focus my attention on more important things[1] and more interesting topics[2].<p>[1] Such as commenting on Hacker News.<p>[2] Such as discussions about Reddit.<p>:-)
bmm6oalmost 10 years ago
It&#x27;s crazy to me how poorly this whole recent &quot;revolt&quot; was handled. The only thing of value to Reddit Inc is the community, so you think they would be more proactive about everything, that they would be hiring more community managers rather than firing key ones. Is this their Digg moment? Probably not, but how many more fuckups like this can they make before the users leave for good?<p>I&#x27;ve cut Pao a lot of slack in the past, but this makes her look like she has no idea what she&#x27;s doing. No communication for days? Speaking to outside reporters before speaking to her community? It makes no sense to me.
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vonklausalmost 10 years ago
&gt; We are sorry -Reddit Corporate<p>&gt; Prove it -Reddit Community<p>There is no point in analyzing the apology, only the actions that occur over the next month.
rdtscalmost 10 years ago
That was actually a decent apology not the typical corporate &quot;We are sorry you feel this way non-apology apology&quot;.<p>Yeah it came late. But better late than never.
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iawalmost 10 years ago
This is the first thing I&#x27;ve seen from Ellen Pao that looks like a step in the right direction. There area few challenges she faces at reddit that I don&#x27;t envy. It is an unfortunate consequence of her lawsuit that she gained enough notoriety to be disliked by a portion of the male cohort of reddit. She is now in the awkward position of both trying to address real problems with the site that have gone unaddressed for a long time and mitigating the damage that her personal brand is causing by being associated with the site.<p>Regardless of my personal opinions about her lawsuit it&#x27;s really unfortunate that the simple act of bringing the lawsuit has bled so much into her interactions with the reddit community.
Jerry2almost 10 years ago
Why hasn’t the board of directors that governs Reddit taken action yet? They need to hire a new CEO ASAP before the site becomes another Digg and people leave.
jgrowlalmost 10 years ago
I feel bad for Pao on a personal level, but I feel like she is too divisive to be an effective leader of a site like reddit. All people deserve respect though and should not have to put up with hateful personal attacks.<p>I think mainly this underscores the need for the internet to evolve. Sites like reddit and twitter are too important to be controlled by a single for-profit entity.<p>We need distributed systems that respect anonymity and privacy that prevent censorship. We also need the ability for groups to form where content can be curated.<p>I think there are a number of projects in development that have potential. It will be interesting to see where things go.
oldmanjayalmost 10 years ago
well, the harassment standard is worded in such a way that&#x27;s it&#x27;s purely subjective, so I predict the continuation of inconsistent application of the policy.<p>also, a decade+ of &quot;terrorism&quot; has left me feeling that fear-based policies are a serious mistake.<p>on the other hand, I don&#x27;t and likely never will use reddit, so this is all popcorn-munching entertainment to me.
joeevans1000almost 10 years ago
They are trying to reframe the discussion around the idea that they failed in communicating. What they failed in, actually, was keeping an astounding and dedicated employee their users loved.
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GuiAalmost 10 years ago
This is just a testament to how most MBAs are incapable of seeing past the blinders that were put on their eyes in B school. Anyone who&#x27;s been in Silicon Valley long enough will have seen this in many other forms (I know I have), although perhaps not as high profile as this one.<p>The success of Reddit is directly attributable to high profile subs (&#x2F;r&#x2F;AskScience, &#x2F;r&#x2F;AskHistorians, &#x2F;r&#x2F;AMA, &#x2F;r&#x2F;ListenToThis, etc.) and less visible but still well run subs that cater to more niche interests&#x2F;topics (&#x2F;r&#x2F;MakeupAddiction, &#x2F;r&#x2F;PersonalFinance, etc.). Those subreddits would not exist without the thousands of man hours put in by moderators who are volunteers (modulo a few exceptions, such as Victoria). Anyone who has moderated an internet community knows how much sweat, effort, time, and pain go into maintaining a high quality community, and how crucial it is to keep your moderators happy and make them feel like their effort is valued.<p>The fact that the people running Reddit do not seem to realize that is a perfectly valid reason for the user base to be angry. A lot of Silicon Valley executives like to think of their company+product as some neat little money making machine that sits in a vacuum and that they can tweak and modify as they like. But the reality is that building a community platform like Reddit is very different from running a sausage factory. You can run your sausage factory in to the ground, and the sausages won&#x27;t complain (the workers might, but the US does a pretty good job at avoiding that through strict control on labor unions). But when you start shitting on Reddit, the users will complain and protest - after all, you might control the code and the servers, but the community as a whole has contributed much more than you have to the end product.<p>You can&#x27;t separate &quot;reddit&quot; and &quot;the community&quot; like some commenters here are doing. This dualism makes no sense - reddit and its community are the same thing. You can&#x27;t have the thoughtful, well run threads on &#x2F;r&#x2F;AskScience without the dumb jokes on &#x2F;r&#x2F;funny.<p>Ellen Pao and friends do not seem to grasp those subtleties (this apology is just damage control), and it lead to the complete disaster we are seeing right now. This isn&#x27;t rocket science - in fact the Reddit community is quite predictable. Any Reddit user would have been able to tell you how the community was going to react to these actions. The fact that Ellen Pao has some shady connections (her husband not being in jail because he has enough money is a good first example) is just more fuel on top of the fire. This was extremely easy to predict, and the fact that the Reddit leadership seems to be completely clueless about it is a very bad sign for things to come. The reddit community didn&#x27;t have a problem with kn0thing, yishan, and others because they were first and foremost reddit users and know how to interact with the community. It&#x27;s not the case for the current people in charge.<p>The community has every right to be up in arms. And if you think that the Reddit community is shit and don&#x27;t spend time there, like some commenters here state, then what makes you feel like your input has any sort of relevance?<p>This isn&#x27;t a technology or management fiasco - it&#x27;s a political debacle. At a community interaction level, it&#x27;s not very different from taking someone with arbitrary credentials and putting them in charge of a country they&#x27;re completely unfamiliar with in the hope that they&#x27;re going to make that country a peaceful democracy. It just doesn&#x27;t work - you need the leadership to come from the community for it to have any lasting chance.
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calcolalmost 10 years ago
Looking past the vitriol towards Ellen Pao, this seems to be primarily due to a history of miscommunication between moderators, who feel they should have more power and better ways to handle the communities they support, and the admins of Reddit. While I think that there are definite issues on both sides -- I&#x27;m not a moderator, especially not of a big subreddit, so I don&#x27;t know how disrespectful or how much the admins ignored the moderators requests, so my perspective is of an outsider -- I really feel like this is all just a temper tantrum that the moderators handled poorly, potentially purposefully. The users by and large did not need to know that Victoria was fired, and it&#x27;s a shame that the moderators 1) let that information out, and 2) by letting it out, effectively let it be used as a base for a parade against Ellen Pao. It can&#x27;t be argued that the moderators didn&#x27;t&#x2F;couldn&#x27;t know this would happen because this kind of shit happens on Reddit all the time, and the more vocal parts of the community will cling to their dislike of Pao with this.<p>I think that the admins should have handled it better, for sure -- they could have at least given the moderators that relied on Victoria&#x27;s help the heads up of, &quot;hey, we are going to transition to a new community manager, for the time being X, Y, and Z are going to occur,&quot; but the backlash from the community and that the moderators are effectively using the community for their own gains instead of trying to handle it internally is a pretty bad reflection on how the community is structured as a whole. All I can think of is that this is basically 4chan and social media combined.
noarchyalmost 10 years ago
This post regarding the apology is fairly new, with a lot of points and comments. Yet it has already sunk to page 2. I assume that reddit-related posts are given a negative weighting of some kind on HN, of late?
paulpauperalmost 10 years ago
A lot of Reddit users forget or don;t realize that Reddit is a business, not a non-profit.<p>For all we know, it may not have been Ellen&#x27;s fault...a lot of people jumping the gun
lnoalmost 10 years ago
Serious question about my use case and opting for a substitute: I use reddit to learn and interact with a community about my interests or things that I want to learn. Reddit has been fantastic for this and about 75% of the time the users of specific communities are great resources that I really can&#x27;t find anywhere else.<p>Recently, it&#x27;s become increasingly apparent that drama around and within reddit is ruining this - all I want to do is learn and engage - it&#x27;s impossible now to avoid it. Any alternative that keeps the quality high and the format similar without all the ugly dramatics?
chralmost 10 years ago
Maybe it was laziness, but till now I&#x27;ve been expecting good things from companies backed by YCombinator. Ekjp and kn0thing are eroding the brand value of YC.<p>MY 2 cents, seen from far away.
glorienalmost 10 years ago
Why do people moderate large subreddits? They don&#x27;t get paid... what are they actually getting out of it? Why continue to do it?<p>&quot;fuck you, pay me&quot;
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sergiotapiaalmost 10 years ago
&quot;Popcorn tastes good.&quot; - Never forget that. Personally, I&#x27;ve moved on to Snapzu. Peace out Reddit, it&#x27;s been real. :)<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;rburhK9.jpg" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;rburhK9.jpg</a>
dgcoffmanalmost 10 years ago
Reddit users are too stupid to effectively use reddit.