TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

82 pointsby bjxrnalmost 10 years ago

20 comments

DanAndersenalmost 10 years ago
Shamelessly reposting an earlier comment of mine (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9909259" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9909259</a>) because I feel it&#x27;s relevant here:<p>---<p>&gt;For quite some time I&#x27;ve felt that advertising&#x2F;marketing, at least the sort we&#x27;ve had for the past century or so, is inherently immoral. The fact that it&#x27;s a necessary evil in our economic system doesn&#x27;t stop it from being an evil.<p>&gt;Modern advertising is not merely informing people about products and what they do. It&#x27;s brain-hacking, where advertisers have figured out over decades of experience, and research into human cognitive biases and failure modes, ways of presenting the same product, the same information, but getting a desired response out of the target.<p>&gt;We accept this as a society because we tell ourselves that, as rational human beings, we have the choice to listen to or reject these messages. But modern understandings of cognitive biases show how advertising works on deeper levels, and even works despite us knowing about the tricks that are being used on us.<p>&gt;The problem is that there&#x27;s a severe imbalance. Advertisers are getting better and better at attacking -- at figuring out precisely what makes us tick, down to the level of pixels on an A&#x2F;B-tested website. Are people getting any better at defending themselves? Are people being trained in dealing with their cognitive biases to make themselves resistant? Overall, I don&#x27;t think so.
评论 #9981501 未加载
评论 #9983685 未加载
评论 #9982783 未加载
评论 #9981516 未加载
评论 #9981681 未加载
saulrhalmost 10 years ago
It&#x27;s not a war. It&#x27;s evolution. <i>Nature, red in tooth and claw</i>. Ideas live in you, and they die in you, and they evolve. Reproduction: ideas spread, through words, deeds, and creations. Variation: communication inherently introduces errors, and thoughts change over time. Selection: ideas that are forgotten die without spreading. With reproduction, variation, and selection, you have evolution.<p>Religion is a coherent, tenacious, communal meme with unbelievably virulent reproductive mechanisms. A school is a selective breeding program. And advertisements are memetic WMDs, colossal infectious vectors with powerful memetic payloads. Your goal is to infect minds with your idea and to keep them infected long enough for them to take the actions dictated by your meme. Your meme has to be able to reproduce. Your meme has to be transmitted without variation. Your meme has to <i>be selected</i>.
评论 #9981356 未加载
评论 #9981677 未加载
评论 #9982422 未加载
shooalmost 10 years ago
It is insufficient to ignore blatant advertising. For example, if you live in the US, then you are part of a society that has been subjected to ~ 100 years of corporate propaganda.<p>&gt; The prominent business analyst Roger Babson remarked in 1921 that &quot;the war taught us the power of propaganda. Now when we have anything to sell the American people, we know how to sell it.&quot; Edward Bernays, too, noted that the &quot;astounding success of propaganda during the war opened the eyes of the intelligent few in all departments of life to the possibilities of regimenting the public mind.&quot; [1]<p>Corporate PR got into US schools in the &#x27;30s:<p>&gt; Aware that the adult population was cynical about the corporate claims to &quot;service&quot;, they aimed specifically at schools, where <i>Young America</i>, their weekly children&#x27;s magazine that portrayed capitalism as dedicated to looking after them and their communities, was sent to thousands of teachers, who used them in classroom assignments. <i>You and Industry</i>, a series of booklets written in simple language, linked individual prosperity to unregulated industry, and was distributed to public libraries everywhere. One million booklets were distributed every two weeks by the US Chamber of Commerce, which, along with the giant industrial corporations, was also involved in the campaign. [1]<p>Get &#x27;em while they&#x27;re young, before they have the mental tools to defend themselves.<p>[1] Kerryn Higgs - &quot;Collision Course: Endless Growth on a Finite Planet&quot;
评论 #9981900 未加载
eliseealmost 10 years ago
Related, though less about brands, I really liked &quot;This Video Will Make You Angry&quot; by CGP Grey. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc</a> - Thoughts&#x2F;memes as germs trying to reproduce and spread, battling for attention and thriving when people endlessly argue as part of an us&#x2F;them dynamic.
评论 #9981020 未加载
评论 #9981583 未加载
评论 #9981163 未加载
brongondwanaalmost 10 years ago
This is a really interesting challenge, both as a person being bombarded by this, but also as someone trying to sell something.<p>We had a choice at FastMail a few years ago now, when we were still providing free accounts and trying to use advertising - both to the user of the account and in the signature of outgoing email - to cover the operational costs.<p>In the end we decided to ditch the free accounts entirely, remove all advertising, and focus on providing the best possible experience we can to our paying customers.<p>Which is great, but we still need at least the second order advertising so that new people become aware that our product exists. We know we could grow a lot faster by throwing away our morals - instead we&#x27;re experimenting very cautiously with placing advertisements while we continue to rely on word of mouth from happy customers as our main way to find new subscribers.
评论 #9981311 未加载
wanderingstanalmost 10 years ago
Years ago I wrote an essay on a neighboring idea, that <i>Attention is meme sex (and Google is a dating service)</i>. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;wanderingstan.com&#x2F;2006-10-11&#x2F;attention_is_meme_sex_and_google_is_a_dating_service" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;wanderingstan.com&#x2F;2006-10-11&#x2F;attention_is_meme_sex_an...</a><p>&gt;Advertisements are sometimes consensual too, as when people tune in to watch the superbowl ads. But ads often constitute a theft of attention, a non-consensual transmission of ideas. TV advertisements, email spam, billboards, flashing banner ads…they’re all there to steal a little of your attention. The chances of successful replication are lower of course, but the advertiser only needs a few successes to make it worth their while. Not to stretch the analogy too far, but this non-consensual transmission of ideas could aptly be described as a sort of “memetic assault”.<p>Tl;tr Ideas replicate only through attention, thus the battle for our attention.
danieldkalmost 10 years ago
I always wonder to what extend this happens on Hacker News. I am sure that a lot of up&#x2F;downvoting is done based on product loyalty. But many people here are employed by one of the companies involved in the &#x27;ecosystem wars&#x27;.<p><i>After all, if all the parties in a war are pushing you to ‘join their side’ then they are trying very hard to make you forget that there is another side: your side, non-participation in the war, the ability to opt-out and to refuse to become an unpaid foot-soldier for any one party.</i><p>I think this is very difficult. E.g. we are all using technology and most of the tech that we can buy or get for &#x27;free&#x27; are stakeholders in a war. I try to make my technology choices on technical merits, but often the perceived merits are influenced by what is said on the internet, simply because we can&#x27;t try before we buy.<p>Also, I noticed the social pressure set up by such wars. E.g. I used to use MacBooks and iPhones, basically because the iPhone was so far ahead that it wan&#x27;t even funny. Later, I switched from iPhone to Android, mostly because of the price&#x2F;spec ratio. I noticed an immediate effect in some of my social circles: Apple users spoke as if I betrayed Apple, Android users shrugged with a comment like &#x27;oh, I thought you were an Apple fanboy&#x27;. It&#x27;s really surprising that it doesn&#x27;t occur to people that you can switch due to technical or budget reasons.
评论 #9981065 未加载
评论 #9980936 未加载
kriroalmost 10 years ago
Somewhat ironic item at the end of the article?<p>&quot;&quot;&quot;If you read this far you should probably follow me on twitter&quot;&quot;&quot; with a Twitter icon and follower count.<p>Personal brands are brands, too and I&#x27;d count this as advertising as well.
评论 #9980930 未加载
TACIXATalmost 10 years ago
I think the clearest way to put it is that we are the subjects of attack in campaigns of psychological warfare.<p>There are two types of advertising, those that make you aware of a brand you were previously aware of, and those that try to burn one into your head. The first is ok, the more aware of competition we are the better the market is. It is the second one, the one that big brands participate in, that drives me crazy. I want my mind to be clear, not to have a jingle playing in it. I don&#x27;t want a brand to pop into my head because I see it on a bottle in my peripheral vision.<p>This absolutely influences my choices too. No cable subscription. Adblock. I try to avoid services that are ad supported. Paying to remove ads in apps (I do not want to be served a brand when my alarm goes off).<p>As well, my decisions in building applications. I&#x27;m making a paid application with no ads hoping that users will be willing to pay a small price to protect their data from that system.<p>Thanks for writing about this. I feel it&#x27;s a very important issue and that not having this bombardment should be a human right.
kittenfluffalmost 10 years ago
I agree completely. I think you have a moral obligation <i>to yourself</i> to avoid advertising as much as is reasonably possible. This means not watching television (unless you&#x27;re paying to watch it free of advertisements), not reading publications that are heavily supported by advertising (e.g. most magazines) and using an ad blocker everywhere on the web.<p>You will never be able to completely avoid advertising without taking yourself out of mainstream society, but you can avoid the most insidious parts, and you can try very hard to condition yourself against the rest of it.<p>The &quot;second-order&quot; advertising (e.g. critic recommendations, word of mouth) is much harder to deal with, especially if you believe that some people have good, unbiased, not-unduly-influenced opinions that you will benefit from listening to. My only recommendation is to curate the people whose opinions you listen to very carefully, and think hard about who they might be (possibly unwittingly) influenced by.<p>I am sympathetic to the argument that advertising pays for many of the things I like, particularly on the web. But I don&#x27;t think that argument is compelling enough for it to be worth handing over control of my head.<p>Of course, advertising is only one factor, though it is probably the most important factor. Other systems competing for a share of your mind include religions, political parties and&#x2F;or systems of political thought, philosophical systems, programming languages and&#x2F;or communities (eg functional vs. object oriented), sports teams, national identities, racial identities, and more.<p>You may <i>want</i> to allow some of these access to a share of your mind (e.g. many people enjoy supporting a sports team, even when the rational part of their brain knows that their sports team isn&#x27;t inherently better than any other). But for the most part, I think it&#x27;s better to avoid falling into these traps.<p>The best exposition I can recall is one of Paul Graham&#x27;s earlier essays, &quot;Keep Your Identity Small&quot;[0]. I would probably argue a similar point, but phrase it differently - keep your identity <i>broad</i>. Instead of thinking of yourself as a &quot;Ruby programmer&quot; or a &quot;functional programmer&quot; it is better to think of yourself as a &quot;programmer&quot; (and even better not to think of yourself as a programmer at all!). Instead of thinking of yourself as American, or Chinese, or as black, or white, try to think of yourself as a human. The broader you can make your identity, the less chance you have of accidentally falling prey to any of the theories competing for a space in your head.<p>[0] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.paulgraham.com&#x2F;identity.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.paulgraham.com&#x2F;identity.html</a>
评论 #9980749 未加载
评论 #9980856 未加载
kitzunealmost 10 years ago
I believe that it&#x27;s not about participating in the war, it&#x27;s about consciousness. Keeping your mind clear and focused, understanding what kind of information and to the purpose of what you are consuming. Thoroughly separating the information you really need and the one you are forced to deal with.<p>In my mind, the process within your brain is very similar to digestion in its most biological meaning. Your functioning, your physical and mental form depends on what you eat, what amounts of nutritients you get from food. And it&#x27;s a matter of every individual&#x27;s choice how to feed your organism and what to demand in return.
reilly3000almost 10 years ago
I really do fundementally believe in the sanctity of human consciousness. That isn&#x27;t to say we have some inherent right to true self determination, but it means that it&#x27;s worth fighting for. I find myself feeding my family with my work in the advertising industry and I&#x27;ve had to grapple with what I&#x27;ve done and will do in the service of advertisers.<p>I&#x27;ve come to the conclusion that advertising and the general thrust of mass communication with commercial interests is a powerful force. As such, I would rather it&#x27;s power lie in the hands of everyone, not just the state or a religion or strong man. Advertising in the hands of a small family business gives that family the ability to have economic autonomy, and ensures that both purchasing power and political voice is distributed across wide, diverse populations rather than a few powerful elite that control the voice of everything.<p>Advertising, in the hands of the many, breeds democracy. Think of the world-bending power of the printing press. It effectively created the middle class in Europe. It&#x27;s not just the economic activity it generated. It is the voice it gave to everyone who reached for it.<p>We can&#x27;t put the genie back in the bottle. I think the way forward is to actually get better at connecting with each other in a decentralized mesh network of demand and desire. If enough people can share what they want in a trusted manner, we can live without ads and live into becoming a real global community.
branchlessalmost 10 years ago
Advertising is generally trying to make us feel bad and want to be something else if we buy product X. This is bad for mental health. I watch zero advertising.<p>It&#x27;s also key in making us get into debt which then enslaves us.<p>Throw your TV out the window. Put adblock on.<p>I never help these people. Even on a site where I go via google and get their advert questions I do not read the question, I just look at the answers, try to find &quot;I don&#x27;t know&quot; and click it.
mirimiralmost 10 years ago
I&#x27;ve learned to always consider speakers&#x27; agendas. I&#x27;m also very careful to avoid viewing ads. Online, I use AdBlock Plus. In meatspace, I just don&#x27;t look. And when that&#x27;s not possible, I always focus on deconstruction. It helps that I&#x27;ve worked in both academic science and litigation ;)
评论 #9981710 未加载
rm_-rf_slashalmost 10 years ago
Perhaps this is my inner Ultra-American speaking, but I think it&#x27;s perfectly fine for people to feel aligned, even owned, by their brands.<p>Hell, look around you. How many items do you see that were NOT made by a corporation?<p>The brands I choose are a reflection of my personality. I shop at Wegmans instead of having groceries delivered because I like their quality and I can always run into people I know. I buy Apple products because they appear more integrated and polished than other consumer tech, and that is an important aspect of my personality. I&#x27;m not a shill (ok, I did work for Apple a few years ago), but rather I am so content with the brands I choose that I enjoy telling others about them.
评论 #9981078 未加载
systemtriggeralmost 10 years ago
Wise synthesis of a growing problem. Author says &quot;I&#x27;ve decided to &#x27;opt-out&#x27; of this war entirely.&quot; What mental gymnastics does he use when watching a YouTube ad for example? The subliminal effect of much advertising is pernicious and cannot be entirely avoided, it seems to me.
评论 #9981936 未加载
fmdudalmost 10 years ago
Hey here&#x27;s an idea: Maybe read a book. Some good fiction. You&#x27;re going to get stuff in your head either way, maybe at least make it good stuff.
bikamonkialmost 10 years ago
I am immune. The trick is to become conscious of the process. Put another way: the immune mind operates on a higher level of abstraction and can objectively see lower levels - you allow the memes to run in brain cycles but you are su and kill them. It&#x27;s like when you are watching a movie and at some point you realize (feel) it is fake reality, then you learn to do it on purpose everytime: you watch the movie layer from above, it does kill the idea of the movie to fool you but it is a great mind workout to &#x27;learn to be immune&#x27;.
评论 #9982013 未加载
评论 #9981913 未加载
applecorealmost 10 years ago
<i>&gt; I&#x27;ve decided to &quot;opt-out&quot; of this war entirely.</i><p>Good luck with that, but advertising knows you better than you know yourself.
评论 #9981508 未加载
评论 #9982592 未加载
owenwilalmost 10 years ago
This was an awesome read. Thank you for this, I&#x27;d never thought of it that way before.