Alberta separatism push roils Canada

83 포인트작성자: paulpauper1일 전

28 comments

<a href="https://archive.ph/cIwx6" rel="nofollow">https://archive.ph/cIwx6</a>

Alberta on as its own independent state would be net worse off in that they'd be a landlocked state and this would not at all directly advance their goals of getting more of their oil product to tidewater, one of their main political grievances. British Columbia would still oppose further oil pipelines to its coast for the same reasons it has always opposed them and in fact it would become politically easier for Canada to deny such access.So the only viable outcome really is American annexation. (Additionally not advancing the Albertan grievance of only selling oil to one customer...)

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dustbunny1일 전

As a Western Canadian, I actually think it's the media attention on this that has made it more popular. The vast majority of people in my life think this is a terrible idea. Western Canada, and Alberta, have been shafted by federal Canadian politics for a long time, but Carney seems to be saying the right things ("energy super power", "energy corridor", "streamline infrastructure").

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jleyank1일 전

Before going to secede, Alberta should do what Quebec has done and "practise" being a country: collect its own taxes, run its own police, run its own retirement system, control provincial immigration, ... This will give them a better idea what will be required to go it alone, and test whether their low-tax haven will survive leaving Canada.

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dblohm71일 전

Albertan here: a supermajority of Albertans are opposed to separation, but it continues to be amplified by the press.Danielle Smith, our provincial premier (equivalent to a state governor) is trying to pull a David Cameron to appease the separatist wing of her party.

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vouaobrasil약 23시간 전

Sounds like the desires of spoiled brats in my opinion. Alberta enjoys low income taxes (10% flat until a VERY high amount), no provincial sales tax, and lots of money from oil. Life is very good in Alberta generally and yet they still want more. People say Alberta gets shafted by federal politics it's rather selfish to want to benefit even more from oil considering that is the one thing that is bringing down this world. Sounds like the real problem is that the selfish brats just want to freeload off more oil because they want the cheap life of high consumerism. Sad.

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thr0waway0011일 전

Next huge wildfire after Alberta secedes will be very very interesting.Heck just last year, the most prominent city in Alberta, Calgary, needed help just dealing with breaking a huge water main breaking.With drought becoming more of a real threat every year Alberta will be in a shitty place being landlocked.We are gonna need the rest of Canada’s help. Unfortunately, we can’t drink the oil.

SketchySeaBeast1일 전

As an Albertan I really have to wonder who is behind this PR push. Immediately after the election there were people coming to my door, asking about my attitude towards separatism. There's been flyers and news articles, and now there's an article in the NY Times? Considering the relative unpopularity of the movement, whoever is bankrolling this has a big reach and deep pockets.

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MeIam1일 전

This is oil talking and how does oil talk? Via oil companies. Americans own a lot of oil in Alberta. Americans are Astroturfing. They do it at home and abroad and that is how Citizen United produced corporate personhood in USA.If Alberta wants to separate and it's native people/aboriginals who own much of the land, don't go along, are they going to go to war?

BJones121일 전

This Astral Codex Ten (Slate Star Codex) article is what led me to think Alberta would be better off if it separated from Canada:<a href="https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-cities-and-the-wealth" rel="nofollow">https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-cities-and...</a>

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bhewes1일 전

Having lived in Alberta and Quebec as an American this is funny as hell, but that is Canada got to do something with too much time inside.

cafard1일 전

Canadians will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that at least Alberta made noises about secession 40 or 50 years ago.

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Projectiboga1일 전

There is also a major First Peoples presence in Alberta. This will complicate any attempts to seccede and complicate any union with the USA. <a href="https://www.alberta.ca/map-of-first-nations-reserves-and-metis-communities" rel="nofollow">https://www.alberta.ca/map-of-first-nations-reserves-and-met...</a>

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insane_dreamer1일 전

> Critics say that these [federal regulations] limited Alberta’s ability to fully extract and export its mineral and fossil fuel wealth.Of course they do! one of the key pillars of trying to mitigate global warming is reducing dependency on fossil fuels, which means not "fully extracting" it.What's the alternative -- extract as much as possible now so we can line our pockets, and let the next few generations deal with it?

petermcneeley1일 전

What % of the participants of the trucker protest were from Alberta?

cryptoegorophy1일 전

Call me a conspiracy theorist but most of these post/articles/info is a Russian propaganda. It fits a textbook narrative of divide and conquer. I’ve seen same patterns in other parts of the world and similar thing seems to be in seed stage here as well as USA. It is a slow grind towards a long term goal.

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aylmao1일 전

If Alberta were to separate, I can only imagine it would be to become part of the USA. If Alberta became part of the USA, there would be many factors pushing the North West Territories, the Yukon and British Columbia to follow.The Northwest Territories and Yukon simply make sense for the USA to want. It connects Alaska, they're relatively unpopulated (which makes annexation easy), and as northern trade routes become more feasible, are strategic for the USA to try to claim.British Columbia has sizable population, but can it exist as part of Canada, isolated from the rest of Canada?I think the geography of Canada is fascinating. It has long been a "river country", like Pakistan or Egypt, built around the St. Laurence river [1]. It inherited sizable "extra" territory on the west from the British— territory the Brits kept from the USA back when they were in a position to defend it.This non-St. Laurence Canada has slowly been populating, but looking at North American maps— from population density [2], to roads [3][4], to railroads [5], it just seems so relatively disconnected at the longitude of Lake Superior. I don't really know if it's possible to build a big city in the Thunder Bay/Nipigon area, but it almost feels like there should be one there.I get that Ottawa was made the capital in 1857 as a compromise between French and English speaking Canada, but if the USA keeps pushing this rhetoric (and we all know it's the USA behind Alberta separatism), would it be beneficial to move the Capital to Winnipeg? It's closer to the actual center of Canada, which would not only exert more influence on the west, but be a forcing function on east-west connectivity and with it, union.[1]: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_Canada#/media/File:Distribution_of_Population,_1851_to_1941.jpg" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_Canada#/media/Fi...</a>[2]: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_Canada#/media/File:Population_density_statistics_canada.gif" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_Canada#/media/Fi...</a>[3]: <a href="https://www.cec.org/north-american-environmental-atlas/major-roads-2020/" rel="nofollow">https://www.cec.org/north-american-environmental-atlas/major...</a>[4]: <a href="https://koordinates.com/layer/110462-north-american-roads-2023/" rel="nofollow">https://koordinates.com/layer/110462-north-american-roads-20...</a>[5]: <a href="https://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/map-rail-canada/" rel="nofollow">https://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/map-rail-canada/</a>

3vidence1일 전

Alberta government is trying to rile up people to distract from their own going healthcare scandel where the MP and her party are complicit in stealing billions of funding.<a href="https://www.ctvnews.ca/calgary/article/ousted-alberta-mla-says-premier-knew-about-ahs-problems/" rel="nofollow">https://www.ctvnews.ca/calgary/article/ousted-alberta-mla-sa...</a>As an eastern Canadian I'm all for expansion of oil production and building a cross country pipelines, but the UCP as a party seem very corrupt.

jmclnx1일 전

I thought I read elsewhere the Indigenous people would succeed from Alberta and stay wilt Canada if this ever happens. Plus the same article said much of the "wealth" is on Indigenous Lands. Leaving Alberta with little.

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neom1일 전

30 October 1995 was the day Canada almost tore itself in half[1]. Within hours of the vote capital started to exits, the banks shut down domestic FX trading to stop the bleeding, the loonie slumped, and Quebec-listed stocks went to shit.[2] ofc, ottawa responds by slashing transfers and public spending in the 1995-97 budgets. [3]They literally said, very loudly to province “do more with less.” Health care, social services, and infrastructure entered a period of massive of under investment, while provinces raised tuition, tolls, and property taxes to plug the gap. That all started the Clarity Act fight[4].As a Canadian, I left Canada because my countrymen insist on shooting us in the foot, mostly in my opinion, because Canadians don't have enough to worry about on average. It seems we are hell bend on continuing the trend. It seems Canadians will do anything to avoid building a cohesive country... 30 October 1995 flipped Canada from build mode to the fetal position, and we're still in it.[1]<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum</a>[2]<a href="https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=841344" rel="nofollow">https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=841344</a>[3]<a href="https://thewalrus.ca/betting-on-separation/" rel="nofollow">https://thewalrus.ca/betting-on-separation/</a>[4]<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act</a>

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FpUser1일 전

If Alberta wants to separate to be on their own it is a lunacy. They will gain nothing in the end.I suspect that in reality there is a plan to just simply sell it to the US - separate first and then join the US later. I bet some politicians on either side of a border are actively involved. They should be fucking quartered.In the US states can not secede. I wish it was the same in Canada. Except couple of borderline cases splitting a country is never good idea.

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fatbird1일 전

An important factor to consider is that provinces in Canada are not like states in the U.S.: they are not sovereign bodies in themselves, they are administrative divisions to which certain federal powers are delegated. Alberta was created within Canada by subdividing what was then the Northwest Territories, already part of Canada.Albertans certainly feel a distinct identity within their province, but that doesn't map to a prior nation, state, or other entity that could be considered coequal with Canada. It's more like a child suing for emancipation from their parent. Their entire identity was created within the Canadian context.Who knows what effect that will have on separation if it comes to pass, but you can't really analogize separation to secession by a U.S. state.

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Teever1일 전

I'm from Alberta and I'm quite concerned about this topic. This recent HN comment[0] has been on my mind lately.I've lived here my whole life and while I have some level of sympathy for the sense of western alienation I feel that it's more of an identity thing that's been fomented by bad actors over the decades for their own personal political agendas and now that it's embedded into people's sense of self from birth it has become hyper-real and a great threat to me and the economic stability of the place that I call home.Nefarious people can really take advantage of these sentiments and get the people who truly believe them to eagerly do some fantastically bad things that are against their self interest.I don't know what can be done about that. Like what's the "Ape together Strong"[1] counter to this divisive bullshit?Alberta has a highly educated population, and one that has robust blue collar abilities, pretty good infrastructure, A shit load of natural resources, enviable geographic advantages in terms of security and isolation, and overall a very good quality of life.What Alberta needs is to be honest with itself and recognize that so many of our issues are caused by ourselves and our inability to coordinate as a people against internal and external forces. Separating won't change that, it'll only make it worse.[0] <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43487443">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43487443</a>[1] <a href="https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/apes-together-strong" rel="nofollow">https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/apes-together-strong</a>

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oldpersonintx21일 전

won't happen but the point is to reset the balance of powerbasically Alberta will be like Glenn Close from Fatal Attraction: "You can't ignore me!"but Americans also tend to underestimate or disbelieve that right-wing sentiment exists in Canadamost Americans think Canada is like Berkeley on a continent-scale...Justin Trudeau believed that too and he was reviled eventually

alephnerd1일 전

People underestimate the anger that has festered in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and parts of BC due to Pierre Trudeau's National Energy Program [0]. It caused a severe recession across western Canada back in the 80s and 90s leading to the Reform Party movement, Social Credit movement (a proto-MAGA movement), and the BC Liberals (a reform party splinter that uses the Liberal name, and all the liberals got pushed into the BC NDP as a result), and that resentment has festered.Secession is a pipe dream, but do not underestimate the anger and conservatism in Western Canada outside of Greater Vancouver, Nanaimo, Victoria, Kelwona, and a couple other islands of liberalism in a sea of conservatism - there's no cultural or social difference between Abbotsford and Bellingham (edit: whitcom county, did not realize Bellingham gentrified), or Lethbridge and Great Falls. Western Canada's resource-driven economy also plays a major role in this because for a lot of Canadians it's their only shot at middle class salaries and life.At least Carney grew up in Alberta during that era, so he can probably avoid the misteps that Justin Trudeau and his father did when dealing with Western Canada.[0] - <a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program" rel="nofollow">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program</a>

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llm_nerd1일 전

It is fascinating to me that there is never a discussion about US states seceding. Well to put that another way, there is a discussion when it's a red state like Texas that is mad that the federal government wants clean air and good healthcare -- Texas spent Biden's term setting up "consulates" and fanning separation threats -- but why do we never hear serious talk about "blue" states seceding, and the mere notion is consider traitorous and "undivided under god" or something civil war incantions?Comparing the trivial complaints Albertans have relative to the federal government[1], just looking at what is happening in the US right now, where the country is objectively and rapidly becoming a profoundly corrupt, banana-republic level idiocracy, and I cannot fathom how the West Coast, New England, New York and the like want to continue to be dictated to by people like MTG or Mike Lee, or have to watch the news everyday to see what new catastrophe the self-dealing felonious president has announced.I mean, in actual polling, 9% of Canadians want to join the US (the absolute high was 15% of Albertans). 20% of Americans want their state to join Canada. Isn't that Amazing?So, start the process?[1] - Most of Alberta's complaints are nonsensical. The NEP program mentioned elsewhere, for instance, promised a coast to coast pipeline system. Alberta refused it, yet now strangely one of their biggest grievances is that there isn't a coast to coast pipeline system. Keystone XL was't cancelled by Canada, it was by the US which has always been extremely antagonistic to the province, and is rapidly replacing it with North Dakota (a state that produces about 4x the per capita oil value, but whose residents see very little value from the same). The federal government recently dropped $35B for a pipeline because commercially most big oil companies refuse to spend money on Albertan projects, but just want to rile up the low-info rubes into thinking somehow it's actually the federal government's fault. See Petronas cancelling an LNG project because spending billions on a terminal in a world flooded with low price LNG isn't worthwhile...still somehow a grievance about the federal government.

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perihelions1일 전

Not surprising given the Times' background, that the CIA isn't mentioned at all as a suspect. Despite that quietly funding and boosting separatist groups is their quintessential modus operandi; that they've done this hundreds of times all over the world; and US intelligence is the most well-funded in the world; and US leadership has now without ambiguity signaled US' intention to end Canada as a sovereign nation.They acknowledge the politician, sure; but they disregard the enormous state apparatus that politician wields, what it does and is capable of. The New York Times is pretty consistent about ignoring it.Note US administration-aligned media has lately been spotlighting US annexation of Alberta[0], despite only 18% support in actual Alberta[1].Note also the related intelligence admissions about Greenland[2].[0] <a href="https://www.foxnews.com/video/6369677470112" rel="nofollow">https://www.foxnews.com/video/6369677470112</a> ("Canadian lawyer leading delegation to DC to make Alberta a state")[1] <a href="https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-join-u-s-poll-1.7434317" rel="nofollow">https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-join-u-s-poll-1.743431...</a> ("...the most support for that proposal in Alberta with 18 per cent of respondents agreeing Canada should join the U.S.")[2] <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43910874">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43910874</a> ("U.S. Orders Intelligence Agencies to Step Up Spying on Greenland (wsj.com)")

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krooj1일 전

This is one of those cases where I would hope that extremely strong federalism is exercised from Ottawa: essentially, Alberta could be dissolved, stripped of its provincial status and relegated to a territory. From that point, allow for further subdivision to the various First Nations people, allowing reformation into other territories or offer provincial status. The rest of it could be federally administered - see how they like that.As much as it pains me to say it, Canada's diversity is also it's weakness, and there needs to be precedent - perhaps not as severe as in the US - that you do NOT leave the dominion.

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