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Tinder and the Dawn of the “Dating Apocalypse”

182 点作者 declan将近 10 年前

32 条评论

pavlov将近 10 年前
<i>But others lament the way the extreme casualness of sex in the age of Tinder leaves many women feeling de-valued. “It’s rare for a woman of our generation to meet a man who treats her like a priority instead of an option,” wrote Erica Gordon on the Gen Y Web site Elite Daily, in 2014.</i><p>If a woman doesn&#x27;t want to feel like an option, shouldn&#x27;t she stay far away from Tinder? It&#x27;s not like there isn&#x27;t a million other ways for women to meet men, if she has the slightest inclination.
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hedgew将近 10 年前
It&#x27;s a problem of overvaluation.<p>Men are less selective about who they have casual sex with, so the most attractive men consistently and constantly meet up with women they&#x27;d never actually date.<p>For the few men it works great. For most women it works well for a while, but ends in disappointment. For the vast majority of men, the deal is the worst; they are considered unsuitable because women can do better (in 10 minutes, for 10 minutes).
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michaelchisari将近 10 年前
This article makes a big assumption that women only use sex to get to relationships, and men only use relationships to get to sex.<p>Plenty of women casually date with no interest in serious relationships, for the same reasons that men do: They value their independence, they&#x27;re focused on their careers, they like to be able to travel or meet new people.<p>It&#x27;s antiquated to think that women who go on Tinder are hopelessly pining for love and commitment, and it&#x27;s equally antiquated to think that there aren&#x27;t men out there who want those exact things, but can&#x27;t get them because the women they&#x27;re dating aren&#x27;t interested.<p>In fact, I&#x27;ll posit that there&#x27;s a much more positive outlook on this: People nowadays are much more suspicious of moving too fast, of losing parts of your identity and independence for the sake of just being in a relationship. The warning signs are more visible, and we act on them with less hesitation, instead of letting resentment of a bad situation fester into something awful. We break up easier, divorce easier, and refuse to live unhappy lives because the idea of being alone is no longer terrifying.
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s_baby将近 10 年前
&gt;“For young women the problem in navigating sexuality and relationships is still gender inequality,” says Elizabeth Armstrong, a professor of sociology at the University of Michigan who specializes in sexuality and gender. “Young women complain that young men still have the power to decide when something is going to be serious and when something is not—they can go, ‘She’s girlfriend material, she’s hookup material.’<p>That&#x27;s just as much a reflection of what women are looking for. If a woman is attracted to a guy who is &quot;high value&quot; relative to her then she is attracted to a guy who has options. She is attracted to guys she has a power differential with. These women could choose to settle for a relationship where they have the options and power but that&#x27;s not what they want.
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jrdnmadrid将近 10 年前
This article bothers me for several reasons, mostly given the interviews are all based in NY and are a focal point of the article. As a 24-yr old coming from outside Portland, OR, I don&#x27;t see this trend much at all with my coworkers or friends. Most have used it once or twice, but not as serious as they make it out to believe. A lot of my friends are in committed relationships or are looking for them. Maybe I am an outlier, but I think outside SF, LA or NY, these dating apps aren&#x27;t as prevalent as they seem.
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pekk将近 10 年前
Speaking as a happily ugly old person who has never used Tinder: whether you are a man or a woman, it is your decision to date someone or not. Nobody is putting a gun to your head. When both sides get to say yea or nay without coercion, this is one situation which is actually symmetrical.<p>So if you feel like you are getting a bad deal on the dating scene because you are hooking up with people you really don&#x27;t like and your life is a constant churn, that should tell you that you are being too desperate. Put on the brakes. Let the people who are impatient, demanding and rude move along. Learn to live by yourself and to relate to people non-sexually. Then apply those skills to develop more meaningful relationships. Otherwise, you&#x27;re just putting convenience first - then complaining that the result was optimized for convenience over other priorities. Other people you&#x27;d never think about can&#x27;t even get any dates, and you&#x27;re bitching that being non-selective doesn&#x27;t give you all the results of being selective.<p>This is a first-world problem for beautiful people with ample disposable income. In many parts of the world, including New York, you might be lucky if you can pick strawberries or make clothes for $2&#x2F;hr to support a large family you didn&#x27;t choose to have. Most people who ever existed had no option to participate in &quot;hookup culture.&quot;
pmcpinto将近 10 年前
&quot;...the game is out there, and it&#x27;s either play or get played...&quot; - Omar, The Wire<p>Nowadays, if a single guy doesn&#x27;t use Tinder and other apps, it&#x27;s missing a huge pool of single girls available to meet for a drink (or other things).<p>It&#x27;s never been so easy to meet new people, so guys don&#x27;t value so much the girls they met like before, but it&#x27;s the same for girls. If the pool of single girls it&#x27;s huge, imagine the pool of single guys on this apps.<p>I know a lot of girls who uses Tinder only to inflate their ego and play with guys. They have never met one guy through Tinder. Sometimes they even mark a date with a guy and &quot;disappear&quot; before that just for fun.
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patio11将近 10 年前
There&#x27;s a useful word from behavioral economics called &quot;revealed preferences.&quot; Briefly, it means that if you&#x27;re given the opportunity to choose between X and Y, and you say &quot;Wow I really want X&quot; but choose Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, and Y... then your preference is actually for Y.
lqdc13将近 10 年前
This should be in the onion.<p>Women use an &quot;I&#x27;m not going to be serious&quot; app and complain that all the men on it don&#x27;t want to be serious.
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slr555将近 10 年前
The &quot;dating apocalypse&quot; began not with the internet but the pharmacist. Effective long term contraception and anti-infectives that worked against a wide variety of venereal diseases removed the tangible consequences of promiscuous sex. Those milestones are the real articulation in the history of dating.<p>In the 60&#x27;s there were the &quot;happenings&quot; where people metaphorically swiped right and left. In the 70&#x27;s it was discos, the 80&#x27;s had pick-up bars. I&#x27;m pretty sure Vanity Fair had long features on each of those phenomena as well. Each generation starts to mature and are pretty sure that they are the first to discover sex, which of course their parents never had, and the older generation sees &quot;little precious&quot; out doing their thing and the end of the world is nigh. 20 years on the youngsters are bouncing the kids on their knees and the old ones are pushing up grass and so it goes. As the Thorton Wilder said, &quot;Once in a thousand times it&#x27;s interesting&quot;.
notahacker将近 10 年前
Meanwhile, in the gay community, Tinder&#x27;s occupies the niche of the somewhat <i>less</i> sex-obsessed alternative to Grindr, the purely gay hookup app that even Tinder&#x27;s name seems to have been inspired by...<p>I&#x27;m not sure whether the author of the article would be more shocked by the revelation that many Tinder dates actually don&#x27;t end in sex[1] or the revelation that ten years ago, the same demographic of men was bragging about the ease of chatting to multiple potential one night stands per night in <i>bars</i><p>[1]especially ones with men that consider getting a female phone number (with emojis!) to be a major accomplishment
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psycr将近 10 年前
Does anyone else have a feeling of total alienation from the people and behaviours described in this article? I certainly do.
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onewaystreet将近 10 年前
There&#x27;s the old story of the guy that walks around asking every women if they want to have sex. Eventually one always says yes. On Tinder a guy can do that without getting slapped 100 times.
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jokoon将近 10 年前
The hardest part of making those websites work is attracting women on it, and it&#x27;s not easy. Men are natural predators.<p>In 2008&#x2F;9 I used a french website &quot;adopt a guy&quot; (adopte un mec). It was really disruptive because it gave women much more powers. Men can only &quot;charm&quot; women, and women must &quot;adopt&quot; men if they want to talk to them.<p>To be honest I was really surprised, it worked so much better. Women were more confident and it showed, I was having more discussions. Granted, I had to be patient, but the experience was much better.<p>Obviously dating websites should not treat men and women equally.
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ThrustVectoring将近 10 年前
The big issue with Tinder (and a lot of other dating apps) is that they have a really shitty incentive structure for revealing your matching preferences.<p>For Tinder specifically, you can&#x27;t reveal your preferences, save by &quot;is this better than nothing&quot; and how much effort you put into initial messages. Compare this to a ranking + deferred acceptance system, where you can match every guy and every girl such that there&#x27;s no alternate pairing that both the guy and the girl would both prefer.<p>The end result is a lot of wasted effort and low signal-to-noise. The alternative is something that looks a lot like ranking a bunch of potential matches, and magically getting the best coffee or dinner date you can each night. Much more efficient.<p>Unfortunately, efficient marketplaces don&#x27;t automatically out-compete thick ones. It&#x27;s why I haven&#x27;t done anything about the problem - the difficult part of Tinder&#x27;s success to reproduce isn&#x27;t the app or the matching algorithms or the UI, but rather convincing enough people to participate on their platform.
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GuiA将近 10 年前
For the most part, I find that most online social media just degrades human interaction. Twitter encourages short shallow quips, Facebook shows me my friends arguing angrily and pointlessly over random articles, dating apps encourage some of the behaviors described in the article. Heck, even HN encourages a certain kind of attitude that I don&#x27;t find that great, all in all. I know that it&#x27;s not black or white, and that you get out of these things what you put in them - but more often than not, those systems are designed in such a way to tap into primal human drives (the need for sex, validation, novelty, etc.) that makes it very hard to have constant good self discipline.<p>As I&#x27;ve realized this over the past few months (a big factor was reading the biographies of some of my heroes, e.g. Dirac, Feynman, etc., and realizing that they spent a lot of their time working alone in their offices uninterrupted, and communicating with people either in real life over meals, walks, etc. or by postal mail), I&#x27;ve been trying to pull out of most technological communications; using text only for coordinating&#x2F;logistics (&quot;want to grab dinner tomorrow night?&quot;) and email for longer form communication.<p>Then instead of dicking around on Reddit for an hour or chatting with people on Jabber, I go hang out in a local bookstore, read a book in a coffee shop, grab a beer (without my phone) alone at the local bar, go have a meal with a friend. I&#x27;ve had interesting encounters and great conversations with complete strangers; I was the first surprised, given that I&#x27;m not particularly gregarious and it&#x27;s hard for me to strike up conversation with a stranger. But it turns out that there are plenty of people out there who will happily talk to you for a bit.<p>I just recently moved to a new place, and have been thinking about how I can structure my living space to encourage good habits (e.g. practicing music regularly, reading books, working on electronic projects) and discourage bad ones (e.g. spending too much time on social media, reading superficial online articles, etc.). One of the things I did was not connecting my iMac (which I still use for composing music in Ableton, programming, reading PDFs, etc.) to the internet; if I need to look up restaurant times or something, I&#x27;ll use my phone. I do try to leave my phone in a drawer out of sight most of the time, and have removed most of the distracting apps on it. It&#x27;s only been a week, but I like what it&#x27;s doing so far.<p>I&#x27;m in the second half of my 20s, I work in tech, so I don&#x27;t think I&#x27;m a case of a grumpy old luddite. I&#x27;m just starting to realize that technology makes things like hooking up easier, but certain things aren&#x27;t meant to be made easier. People designing those social apps and sites have, for the vast majority, no regard for your time and your attention - so maybe you just shouldn&#x27;t give it to them.<p>I remember reading an article a long time ago (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;kk.org&#x2F;thetechnium&#x2F;amish-hackers-a&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;kk.org&#x2F;thetechnium&#x2F;amish-hackers-a&#x2F;</a>) about the misconception we have about the Amish refusing to use technology. We think that the Amish refuse to use ALL technology; but really, it&#x27;s that our society accepts technology unconditionally as soon as it&#x27;s available, whereas Amish society accepts it only after it&#x27;s proven a clear benefit, and that they understand how to use it in a way that won&#x27;t disrupt their community. For instance, they found that phones are useful: if someone hurts themselves, it&#x27;s good to be able to call the hospital. But if you put a phone in every home, then people start using it a lot, and local community ties suffer. Their solution to that is to have a single phone booth per village, a couple minutes&#x27; walk out. Another example is vehicles: it&#x27;s very useful to have a tractor to work on the farm, but then people start using them as vehicles to go spend time outside of the village, again weakening community ties. Their solution to that is to have tractors with steel wheels so that they can only drive in the fields, not the open road.<p>Of course you can push that philosophy as strongly as you want to the point of the absurd, and there are many things you can criticize about it. But overall, I do find that mindset very refreshing and interesting, and that&#x27;s what I&#x27;m trying to bring to my life.
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meatysnapper将近 10 年前
God I wish I was in NYC. The stories I&#x27;ve heard from buddies there!<p>West coast scene is not like this at all, especially not in Man-Francisco or Man-Jose (unless you like men of course).
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austenallred将近 10 年前
&gt;“Tinder sucks,” they say. But they don’t stop swiping.<p>Well... stop swiping?
linkregister将近 10 年前
For those lamenting the &quot;quantity over quality&quot; aspect of Tinder, I would suggest using Coffee Meets Bagel [1] as a supplement or alternative.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;techcrunch.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;02&#x2F;18&#x2F;dating-app-coffee-meets-bagel-lands-7-8-million-in-series-a&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;techcrunch.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;02&#x2F;18&#x2F;dating-app-coffee-meets-bag...</a><p>(I have no interest in this company nor have I used it; I have been told it works well for higher quality dates by male friends)
pandatigox将近 10 年前
Interesting to see that America (but as the other commenters have pointed <i>new york</i>) that a culture of sex is well and truly alive, whereas places such as Japan are suffering from a lack of this culture (men are now called &quot;herbivores&quot; due to their disinterest).
flycaliguy将近 10 年前
Any other non-photogenic dweebs with partners glad they got out of this game before it went mainstream?
pervycreeper将近 10 年前
Surprised they&#x27;re still quoting Christopher Ryan, who has no scientific credibility and whose work has been entirely debunked. He&#x27;s essentially just some kook proselytizing his own sexual perversions.
rhino369将近 10 年前
People have been writing about the casual sex explosion for ever since the internet hit mainstream but reports also say millenials have less partners than their baby boomer parents did.<p>Hard to say what is accurate.
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mirimir将近 10 年前
This reminds me of RFJason&#x27;s Craigslist experiment.[0]<p>Back in the day, rude invitations with dick pics were odd enough to mock. Now, according to this article, they&#x27;ve become almost accepted. Funny.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Jason_Fortuny" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Jason_Fortuny</a>
narrator将近 10 年前
Anyone remember Logan&#x27;s run and the dating &quot;circuit&quot; thing they had[1]? We are finally there.<p>1.<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=OMlHZNMH5KA" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=OMlHZNMH5KA</a>
rjurney将近 10 年前
This is why I use okcupid. People there actually want to get to know other people.
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kltpzyxm将近 10 年前
I imagine Twine would suit those who prefer a similar service for a dissimilar crowd. I do wonder what actual experiences are like, since I&#x27;m attached and have never encountered any males who use it.
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benten10将近 10 年前
There&#x27;s been a lot of talk of the decrease in &#x27;cost&#x27; of sex, etc in this thread. I want to chip in as someone who has spent a LOT of time on tinder.<p>Last month, I was spending SEVERAL hours a day swiping on friends&#x27; behalf on Tinder. We&#x27;d swipe till our eyes hurt, and we&#x27;d swipe again. You get a limited number of swipes (and total &#x27;targets&#x27;) per day, so once someone ran out of their daily quota, I&#x27;d swipe for someone else.<p>The process is TIRING! -- looking at attractive&#x2F; people at their best putting on their best show is tiring! It&#x27;s doesn&#x27;t seem to be screen fatigue -- there&#x27;s likely an upper boundary on how many faces&#x2F;people you can process in a day. We&#x27;d end up not checking people&#x27;s profiles and swipe based on the amount of skin showed on profile pictures. It sounds ridiculous, but being judgmental of people&#x27;s face&#x2F;facial features apparently gets tiring at some point.<p>This leads me to believe that the interactions don&#x27;t come for free -- they may be cheap, but the costs exist.<p>So as someone who spent all that time on Tinder, it is not clear to me what &#x27;friction&#x27; Tinder removes as compared to dating sites say, 10 years ago. Having a hookup app on your lap, and on your cellphone is not that different. Or sites on the desktop 15 years ago. I know people who think &#x27;mobile&#x27; hookup apps are the most godawful things to have happened in the world (and that because, as a lot of people have said here, because they reduce the cost of interaction), but that&#x27;s not significantly different from say, 10&#x2F;15 years ago, is it?<p>If &#x27;hookup stats&#x27; are really higher, it could be because not everyone agrees on the definition. For a lot of my friends, going over to sleep at someone&#x27;s house constitutes a hookup. I&#x27;d imagine something like that would have happened 20 years ago anyway in an offline setting, but you&#x27;d have met the person in a bar, or a club or what have you. That you happened to have met them on Tinder doesn&#x27;t make it an &#x27;apocalypse&#x27; for the dating type.<p>All the friends I swiped for ended up going on multiple dates, some in the same week. Two ended in a committed relationship, and one who never wanted to be in a relationship was almost dragged into one. I mention this because without tinder, he would never have been out their anyway. So here&#x27;s my theory: tinder is bringing out all the &#x27;marginals&#x27; -- people on the relationship margin who would otherwise not have been &#x27;out there&#x27; anyway. Since their ratio to the general population has increased because of increased visibility, it seems that more people are NOT into dating. That&#x27;s a fallacy because it does not control for the marginals: they&#x27;d not be &#x27;relationship minded&#x27; without tinder anyway.
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dataker将近 10 年前
When most women think &quot; Ew, a dadbod&quot; ,it&#x27;s expected they will encounter the most &quot;despicable&quot; kind of men.<p>Such paradigm is not a consequence of a misogyny; quite the other way around.<p>Downvoting me won&#x27;t change this.
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beatpanda将近 10 年前
Boy, that sure is a parallel universe. Did you know striking up a conversation with a stranger in real life can still get you laid? Less efficient, I know, but if you&#x27;re already saving so much time replacing food with Soylent you should have some wiggle room.
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zxcvvcxz将近 10 年前
&gt; “For young women the problem in navigating sexuality and relationships is still gender inequality,” says Elizabeth Armstrong, a professor of sociology at the University of Michigan who specializes in sexuality and gender. “Young women complain that young men still have the power to decide when something is going to be serious and when something is not—they can go, ‘She’s girlfriend material, she’s hookup material.’ … There is still a pervasive double standard.<p>Women try and find the best man they can possibly get. Just because 50% of the population is female and 50% is male doesn&#x27;t mean that they&#x27;re going to pair off equally. Women want the top 20%! [1] There are evolutionary reasons for this that push our species forward, mating always has and always will be a competition.<p>Now think of the perspective of these top 20% guys. They get all the sex and need not give out their exclusive commitment. And why would they? From an economic perspective, they can maximize their sexual strategy this way (spread the seed, as it were). Monogamy just slows that down.<p>Furthering the economics analogy, these dating apps increase the <i>liquidity</i> and <i>efficiency</i> of the market. Want Chad, the good looking investment banker guy? Keep swiping, you&#x27;ll find him. No need to wait around for Bobby from your programming class to finally ask you out (he probably doesn&#x27;t even lift weights).<p>There are two groups clearly disadvantaged by this current setup:<p>1) Those 80% of &quot;below average&quot; males. Because one of the top males can satisfy many young women (you read the story, some guys sleep with 100+ girls a year), these men get left out. Traditionally, marriage existed as an incentive for the vast majority of men to be productive in exchange for reproduction opportunities. I&#x27;m sure the discerning reader wouldn&#x27;t be surprised to learn that a girl sleeping with a bunch of top 20% dudes and later &quot;settling down&quot; has a harder time staying in a happy marriage [2].<p>2) Which leads us to #2, unmarried women entering their 30s, or whatever arbitrary later age makes them less attractive to the top 20% men. The reality of male preference for physical attractiveness necessarily means that women who engaged in hook-up culture during their earlier years will have to lower their standards.<p>We had a period of time where strict monogamy throughout adulthood dominated, and now that&#x27;s becoming less so (hugely declining marriage rates as one indicator, [3]). The question is whether or not this is a natural evolution for our society, or a sign of decline.<p>---<p>[1] - &quot;As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. &quot; <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.okcupid.com&#x2F;index.php&#x2F;your-looks-and-online-dating&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.okcupid.com&#x2F;index.php&#x2F;your-looks-and-online-dati...</a><p>[2] - &quot;They claim this finding is especially true for women, writing in the report, &quot;We further found that the more sexual partners a woman had had before marriage, the less happy she reported her marriage to be.&quot;&quot; <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.huffingtonpost.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;08&#x2F;21&#x2F;more-sexual-partners-unhappy-marriage_n_5698440.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.huffingtonpost.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;08&#x2F;21&#x2F;more-sexual-partner...</a><p>[3] - <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;national.deseretnews.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;4535&#x2F;US-marriage-rate-hits-new-low-and-may-continue-to-decline.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;national.deseretnews.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;4535&#x2F;US-marriage-rat...</a>
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curiousjorge将近 10 年前
<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.icrw.org&#x2F;media&#x2F;news&#x2F;commentary-does-access-contraception-empower-women" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.icrw.org&#x2F;media&#x2F;news&#x2F;commentary-does-access-contra...</a>
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