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The Universe Is Made of Mathematics

34 点作者 zoltz超过 9 年前

12 条评论

westoncb超过 9 年前
Lets say you select all the aspects of a person&#x27;s life that you consider to have any relevance to anyone and write down a description of every one of them—is that person now &#x27;made&#x27; of words? That&#x27;s how ridiculous this is.<p>I think what this is missing is a justification for thinking the universe somehow &#x27;uses&#x27; mathematics in this sense; being &#x2F;describable&#x2F; by it, is not at all the same as actually being generated by it.<p>There is a mistaken assumptions here that consistent rules from &#x2F;within&#x2F; the universe would apply to its own operation. It&#x27;s like assuming that because some rules must always hold when Monopoly is played, that the rules governing its physical constitution must be drawn from the same set.<p>&quot;Confusing the moon with the finger pointing at it&quot; —is a simple concept to understand, but seeing all the subtle places where we actually make the mistake in our mental lives requires another level of effort.
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DCKing超过 9 年前
The reasons presented in favor of a mathematical universe read somewhat like rehashed arguments used by deists&#x2F;theists.<p>&gt; For something to be physical it must be present at some time and place within the universe, and for something to be abstract it must exist outside of space and time.<p>No. He is redefining words here. &#x27;Physical&#x27; is not usually defined as &quot;exists in space and time&quot;. Abstract thoughts or concepts do not exist outside of space and time. Abstract thoughts are the results of the modeling capabilities of brains and exist very much in the physical world. It isn&#x27;t even known whether &quot;existing outside of space and time&quot; is a coherent concept.<p>&gt; but if the universe is a mathematical object, it needs no creator (on Platonism at least),<p>Firstly, this is the Kalam argument all over again. It isn&#x27;t clear at all that the Universe <i>needs</i> a beginning or whether the &#x27;beginning of the Universe&#x27; is a coherent concept at all.<p>Secondly, even assuming mathematical platonism is true, and even if &#x27;creation&#x27; was a prerequisite for the universe, mathematical platonism has no construct to go from &#x27;describing a universe&#x27; to &#x27;creating a universe&#x27;. That seems to be quite an important thing to miss.<p>&gt; Our universe is fine-tuned because it is one which has the ability to support conscious thought selected from an infinite multitude of mathematical structures, most of which are lifeless.<p>This is very problematic. Once you start thinking about &quot;different mathematics&quot;, you lose all foundations upon which you can reason. Logic does not work anymore. Even if it were true at all, no human could possibly have meaningful thoughts about it. Besides, if we abandon the concept of our &#x27;mathematical structures&#x27; in other universes, what do the words true and false itself even mean?<p>There&#x27;s lots of handwaving with (very) incoherent concepts and dubious logic in this post to make the argument for a mathematical universe.
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ching_wow_ka超过 9 年前
I&#x27;m not much of a mathematician, but I found &quot;Mathematics: The Loss of Certainty&quot; by Morris Kline (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Mathematics-Loss-Certainty-Oxford-Paperbacks&#x2F;dp&#x2F;0195030850" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Mathematics-Loss-Certainty-Oxford-Pape...</a>) very insightful in regards to the development and current state of mathematics. A brief synopsis:<p>From Amazon: &quot;This work stresses the illogical manner in which mathematics has developed, the question of applied mathematics as against &#x27;pure&#x27; mathematics, and the challenges to the consistency of mathematics&#x27; logical structure that have occurred in the twentieth century.&quot;<p>From goodreads.com: &quot;Most intelligent people today still believe that mathematics is a body of unshakable truths about the physical world and that mathematical reasoning is exact and infallible. Mathematics: The Loss of Certainty refutes that myth.&quot;<p>Edit: This was also interesting: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=RlMMeqO7wOI" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=RlMMeqO7wOI</a> , a video by Stephen Wolfram. I know he is often criticized for various reasons, but much of what he says makes intuitive sense.
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ccvannorman超过 9 年前
1) All mathematical objects exist abstractly and independently of minds (mathematical Platonism)<p>Without a mind to understand, interpret, and define mathematics, does it exist? This is a core philosophical problem at the intersection of science and feeling. Without observation, no mathematics exists (for the observer). By proving it exists, you must also have an implicit observer.<p>2) The mind is a computational process (The Computational Theory of Mind or CTM)<p>Pretty big assumption, considering we still have no idea how the mind works (e.g. quantum fluctuations that lead to patterns and thoughts, the origin of which are not known to us or predictable by us.)<p>3) The universe behaves according to laws of physics which are expressible mathematically (metaphysical naturalism)<p>What about where those laws break down, such as inside a black hole or at the beginning of the Big Bang? Do those places and times extend beyond our Universe? If so, where exactly do you draw the line between where our Universe ends and something else exists?<p>These arguments feel quite tenuous to me, another attempt by an intelligent person to say, &quot;Ah, I&#x27;ve figured it all out, THIS is how everything is.&quot;
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vezzy-fnord超过 9 年前
In very broad terms, this is part of an age-old debate in the philosophy of science about how mathematics should be interpreted - instrumentalists (manipulating symbols) versus realists (mathematics underpins objective reality).<p>Realism is obviously popular because any viewpoint which attaches grandiose &quot;meaning&quot; and &quot;purpose&quot; to things is bound to be more popular over what is seen as &quot;colder&quot; and analytic.<p>There&#x27;s actually several sides, but those two are the main ones.<p>EDIT:<p>In addition,<p><i>For a creator God, we are left to ask who created the creator - but if the universe is a mathematical object, it needs no creator (on Platonism at least), so this is a very satisfying answer to that eternal question. It has always existed and will always exist outside of space-time as a mathematical construct.</i><p>No. In fact, a lot of people who subscribe to creationism make the exact same argument - that God has always existed outside of space-time and requires no creator. Your handwaving this in the same fashion is not a satisfying answer in the slightest.
outofcuriosity超过 9 年前
If the universe was &quot;made of mathematics,&quot; then there would necessarily exist a Grand Unified Theory. But, Hawking asserts that Gödel&#x27;s Theorems imply that not only does a Grand Unified Theory not exist, but that the formulation of one is impossible (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.hawking.org.uk&#x2F;godel-and-the-end-of-physics.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.hawking.org.uk&#x2F;godel-and-the-end-of-physics.html</a>).<p>The author stresses that all of reality is mathematical in structure, but this is at odds with the fact that all mathematical systems containing self-reference are necessarily incomplete. Physics is a self-referential system.<p>If the structure of the universe is mathematical, it is probably a very different math than humans are used to. Insert your favorite flavor of metaphysics here!
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kazinator超过 9 年前
Every result in physics hitherto has been some sort of mathematics: an equation or a constant (measured or otherwise established to some digits of precision). What is a particle? A collection of mathematical properties. So is a wave. If we extrapolate from the past to the future, we can expect more of the same: no &quot;non-mathematical bottom&quot; will be found. Nobody is even looking; the researchers expect all new results to take the shape of math. So the notion that &quot;maybe it&#x27;s just math all the way down&quot; is actually quite rational. One day we may hit bottom, the way a (terminating) recursive function does, and realize; this is it: there is nothing more going forward, and if we look back, it&#x27;s just a collection of math.
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Strilanc超过 9 年前
If the universe we find ourselves in is a result of post-selecting for mathematical models where life can exist (i.e. by the anthropic principle), why is the universe <i>so large</i> and <i>so rich in neg-entropy</i>? Shouldn&#x27;t minimally-viable-habitat universes be vastly, <i>vastly</i> more numerous (and don&#x27;t forget about Boltzmann brains!)? Shouldn&#x27;t we expect to be in one of those, instead of here, and be forced to penalize the hypothesis by a corresponding amount? [1]<p>&gt; <i>So, as cosmologists, we have an issue to address — why was the entropy of our early universe so small? If high-entropy states are “natural,” why don’t we live in one? You might think to appeal to the dreaded anthropic principle, and argue that life couldn’t exist in a state with really high entropy. But that turns out not to be good enough; the entropy of our universe is much much lower than it needs to be to support the existence of life. So we are faced with the “arrow of time problem.”</i><p>1: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.preposterousuniverse.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2004&#x2F;10&#x2F;27&#x2F;the-arrow-of-time&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.preposterousuniverse.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2004&#x2F;10&#x2F;27&#x2F;the-arro...</a>
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eludwig超过 9 年前
&quot;A map is not the territory&quot;
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ArekDymalski超过 9 年前
I don&#x27;t understand why people still believe in this concept. For me it&#x27;s quite simple:<p>1. Our nervous system has quite narrow and well defined capability of receiving signals from the outside world. Every of our senses has own limitations. We can&#x27;t see UV or IR etc.<p>2. Our body has a specific way of interacting with the world : we have specific size, strength, have to operate as one, undivided entity etc.<p>3. With such input coming from the above points, our brain creates a specific model of the outside world to function in it, interact, count apples and lions etc.<p>4. Part of this model is this cool toolset containing math and logic. It&#x27;s very useful for us to predict and analyze the world and it&#x27;s so flexible that we can expand and bend it according to our will in face of mismatch between observable reality and math.<p>So there is no surprise that we keep seeing math around us. We created it as a result of interaction with the world.<p>But to insist that math is the real way the world works is ridiculous. It&#x27;s like saying that there&#x27;s nothing beyond the visible spectrum of light because we can&#x27;t see it.<p>I&#x27;m quite sure that any creatures with significantly different bodies than ours would come up with different &quot;math&quot; and different view of the universe.<p>EDIT: I was trying to imagine such creatures but gaps in my knowledge and limitations of my homo sapiens mind are hard to escape and imagine something unimaginable. But I&#x27;ll give it a try: Think of a creature built of 100 autonomously moving clouds of particles, sharing one consciousness. The clouds can change their sizes in the ping-pong - planet range and communicate by radio waves. I think that just the ability to watch specific event from 100 perspectives would give this alien completely different psychology and approach to the logic, truth etc.
qCOVET超过 9 年前
Here is the documentary if you don&#x27;t want to read the blog post: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=IuGI6pQFZC0" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=IuGI6pQFZC0</a>
a3voices超过 9 年前
Maybe the universe is a user interface for your consciousness, and physical objects don&#x27;t really exist.