What Do We Really Know About Osama Bin Laden’s Death?

One big danger is assuming that the Pakistani state is some sort of monolithic entity - it isn&#x27;t. The ISI is a state within the state, and there are significant sectarian movements and tribal loyalties on top of it, and that&#x27;s without even getting into the nature of the efficacy (or lack thereof) of the governing apparatus across the country (ie, one big movement calls for working with the TTP, or the Pakistani Taliban).<p>In other words, is it possible that elements in the Pakistani state (read: ISI cells &#x2F; divisions) and some personnel knew that Bin Laden was in Pakistan? Almost certainly yes.<p>Is it probable that it was known widely by the governing apparatus as a sort of defacto knowledge discussed at say, the cabinel level? I&#x27;d say that&#x27;s unlikely.

So we are supposed to believe that:<p>1) There are super secret helicopters that allowed the US Seals to fly over Pakistan to Abbotabad (which is nearer to India than to Afghanistan) without the Pakistani military which is always paranoid about Indian aircraft&#x2F;drones knowing about it.<p>2) Despite one of the Helicopters CRASHING &amp; BURNING and some guy Tweeting about it, there was no police, no military response in Abbotabad, a Garrison City where you literally cannot throw a rock and not hit a Military person<p>3) The US Seals faced no resistance while entering the compound, and OBL had no guards on the perimeter<p>4) No single image of OBL&#x27;s body is in the public domain<p>5) the Seals flew out to Abbotabad, were on the scene for an hour, flew back (about ~3 hours) of elapsed time - never once were the Pakistani&#x27;s any wiser? No military, no police no official response?<p>These are only some of the major flaws but if you think about this for sometime the whole thing totally strains belief.<p>Maybe Seymor Hersh&#x27;s tale is not the truth but the official version is certainly pure fantasy.

Sounds more likely to me that some people within the Pakistani intelligence knew Bin Laden was in the country, similarly individuals within the US intelligence community knew and had known for a while that he was in Pakistan if not specifically where&#x2F;how to get him out. The idea that someone sold him out is certainly plausible.<p>The idea that there has to be some black and white distinction between the US cooperating with Pakistani authorities to enter the country and kill him vs the idea that they had no knowledge at all I think is probably not accurate. It sounds possible that US authorities alerted Pakistani authorities that they were going to be conducting a raid and Pakistan could comply or face much bigger problems. Since they didn&#x27;t want to be portrayed internationally as being complicit in housing a well known terrorist, they ignored the radar signatures of the helicopters just long enough for the raid to happen.<p>It&#x27;s too bad they didn&#x27;t bring the body back to the US. I wouldn&#x27;t consider Bin Laden to be a Muslim and therefore not deserving of a proper Muslim burial. I see no reason they should have disposed of him and prevented some sort of public verification.

This is Hersh&#x27;s publication: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lrb.co.uk&#x2F;v37&#x2F;n10&#x2F;seymour-m-hersh&#x2F;the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lrb.co.uk&#x2F;v37&#x2F;n10&#x2F;seymour-m-hersh&#x2F;the-killing-of-...</a>

We actually know quite a bit, author of book on the subject defending his account against Hersh&#x27;s:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vanityfair.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;mark-bowden-bin-laden-capture-conspiracy" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vanityfair.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;mark-bowden-bin-laden...</a>

The official accounts of its killing strongly reminded me of the way the &#x27;link&#x27; between 9&#x2F;11 and Al Qaeda was made.<p>The passport found by a cop, a few days later near ground zero :P

reading all of these comments reminds me, welcomingly, that most commentators on HN don&#x27;t know shit: they are just really good at sounding like they know what they are talking about.<p>interestingly this is only ever apparent when a topic comes up that I am an expert in.

&gt;Tell the story you want them to believe.<p>I can speak from first-hand experience that this is exactly how matters of this nature are handled. The general account of Bin Laden&#x27;s death may be true, but the government chose which details they wanted to drive the narrative and selectively released those. i.e. the heroism of the SEALS vs that our &quot;ally&quot; was hiding a terrorist.

It is criminal to make unauthorized disclosures of classified material. The numerous conflicts in the story suddenly make a lot more sense after taking that in to consideration.<p>This particular piece gives the Obama administration a tremendous pass by failing to mention what the made up narrative did to the Pakistani vaccination program.

Can anyone explain what is meant by this:<p>&gt; During the Iraq war, reporters informed us that a mob of jubilant Iraqis toppled the statue of Saddam Hussein in Firdos Square. Never mind that there were so few local people trying to pull the statue down that they needed the help of a U.S. military crane.<p>Here&#x27;s an (edited) video of the event: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=Snyz8sn2-z4" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=Snyz8sn2-z4</a><p>I&#x27;m 90% certain I watched this live at home in the morning when I was home sick from school. There were a smattering of people trying to bring it down and then the crowd got bigger and then the U.S. crane came in and helped. This happened over the course of an hour or two. I remember thinking it was cool that U.S. military helped out.<p>Where does this claim of the false narrative come in?

The logic behind keeping OBL&#x27;s death a secret has some facets worth examining.<p>Most reasons given mention OBL&#x27;s propaganda value - but was he really that popular? Did he have t-shirts or something similar a la Che Guevara? Would stronger proof of his death have attracted more people to his cause?<p>Could not mystique in the end prove stronger than martyrdom? At least a couple of religions describe the return of a prophet.<p>Isn&#x27;t it also possible to have very good reasons for either releasing photos of his death or not killing him? The kind of terrorist who might emulate OBL would probably prefer death on the battlefield to capture or execution. So it&#x27;s not clear what kind of deterrent effect all the secrecy has delivered.<p>I can however think of a few reasons to kill him quickly and release as few details as possible. Independent verification of anything might produce inconvenient facts, that would cast doubt on all other claims. A commenter said Pakistan does not act as a single entity, which is true, but neither does the US. So who knows what a debriefing might have revealed?

I trust Seymour Hersh on this.<p>If my only choices are either believing what the government says, or believing what a decorated investigative journalist says, I&#x27;m going with the investigative journalist. The government simply has too much of an incentive to lie about something like this.

Not a word about the vaccination program?<p>It was reported both in the mainstream media at the time, as well as featuring in Hersh&#x27;s version of events. They (of course) don&#x27;t quite match up, but the vaccination program definitely played a role in both versions.<p>It&#x27;s a bit weird to leave it out. Not like the reporter wouldn&#x27;t have come across it, and the repercussions are quite real.

On an unrelated note; what&#x27;s with the over use of the word &quot;narrative&quot; in this article? It seems to be a fad lately for people to use it to sound smart (I guess) but you&#x27;d think the editor of the NY Times would&#x27;ve told the guy, &quot;try picking a different word for once, eh?&quot; It&#x27;s used so much it&#x27;s almost distracting.

The main whitewashing Ive heard was he and some of his family were shot in cold blood, i.e. Weaponless and without provocation. I am guessing due to the tight constraints of the operation and the difficultly of a high profile prisoner. I dont know why some thought they had to whitewash the story, because most people would understand the necesity.

So if he is not dead, it was either:<p>* A move to push OBL to come out of the bushes to denounce its fake death, and get an opportunity to catch him this way ?<p>* A move to get Obama reelected ?<p>What else could be seen as foul ? I mean it&#x27;s a war against Islamic terrorism, I&#x27;d understand if some plays were little lies. Manipulating the public can be okay if it&#x27;s not for risky purposes.

Previous discussion: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9520984" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9520984</a>

I go by the King&#x27;s rules: No head? Then he ain&#x27;t dead.

It sounds like what really happened was that Pakistan (or elements therein) was protecting him, sold him out (or someone did for money), and the US just went in and mopped him up... and then sexed up the story to help re-elect Obama and probably to cover for the CIA&#x27;s &quot;enhanced interrogation&quot; program.<p>I suppose it&#x27;s also possible that there is some alternative narrative that&#x27;s being covered up, such as the CIA actually keeping him alive (or telling Pakistan to do so) as &quot;bait&quot; to catch other members of his network or for some sort of propaganda or psyops purpose. Maybe we&#x27;ll know in 25 years.

Sorry to derail the discussion but a possible word of warning: whatever is going on in the OP&#x27;s page and code, it&#x27;s causing the tab Safari on my iPad (Air 2) to completely freeze. Not bad enough that I have to do a hard reboot, but enough that the entire page is completely unresponsive. This is the first time this is happened to me on a NYT story page.

I don&#x27;t find his cover up story at all credible - Pakistan knew where Bin Laden was the whole time and kept it a secret from the U.S.? For what possible gain?

...That he&#x27;s dead? Do we really need to know more than that?

And, yet, the biggest questionable detail of all goes virtually unchallenged.

tl;dr:<p><i>Hersh’s most consequential claim was about how bin Laden was found in the first place. It was not years of painstaking intelligence-gathering, he wrote, that led the United States to the courier and, ultimately, to bin Laden. Instead, the location was revealed by a ‘‘walk-in’’ — a retired Pakistani intelligence officer who was after the $25 million reward that the United States had promised anyone who helped locate him. For that matter, bin Laden was hardly ‘‘in hiding’’ at all; his compound in Abbottabad was actually a safe house, maintained by the Pakistani intelligence service. When the United States confronted Pakistani intelligence officials with this information, Hersh wrote, they eventually acknowledged it was true and even conceded to provide a DNA sample to prove it.</i>

While we are on the subject, has anyone else really looked at the image of Obama in the situation room looking intently at the TV? The picture the Whitehouse put out looks like they put Obama&#x27;s head on another persons body. Seriously, I&#x27;m not trying to change subjects, but there is a white collar that sort of appears behind and over his next, but doesn&#x27;t actually fit with his head and body. I would love to know if anyone else bas noticed this?