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American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

168 点作者 kareemm超过 9 年前

33 条评论

Vexs超过 9 年前
While I think his insights on how we treat our children is amazingly insightful, and I love how it&#x27;s described as a religion (the point that children are our sacred cows is very good in particular) his attempt to relate it to marriages seems shoehorned at best. There&#x27;s a lot of problems with the way we treat children, but I think it&#x27;s relation to marriage is the least of our issues.<p>But seriously, the whole &quot;children as a religion&quot; point is great. I mean, think of some of the bills and laws that get passed because &quot;think of the children&quot;. It&#x27;s not too different from religious laws.
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rustynails超过 9 年前
This is both a great article and a mediocre article. I agree with others that the marriage aspect is the weakest part.<p>As a parent, I constantly think back to the 70s as a benchmark for open mindedness and freedom with my children. In my honest opinion, we&#x27;ve lost a lot of perspective and become much less tolerant. In Australia, someone called the police because children walked a short distance to the local park by themselves. Taking a photo at a swimming carnival is taboo. None of these attitudes were around in the 70s.<p>I felt the relationship aspects between adults missed the mark. Not only the relationship breakdown aspects, but the women and sex. That reminds me of the woman who runs she++ (a sexist business name that no one calls out) who said in a Forbes interview that sex was bad and a man thing. There is a social stigma in admitting that women can like sex. Even Sam Mechkovich from Ars commented about bond women not falling for bond in his Spectre review, because that&#x27;s not a woman thing to like sex. My response to these people is &quot;what&#x27;s wrong with it?&quot; Most of the women I know and respect are open about sex. That doesn&#x27;t mean free sex, it means being open minded and confident in yourself to be free to speak your mind. My sort of people...<p>Ultimately, I lump all these social and parental problems down to Political Correctness. For the nay sayers, you can treat people with respect and not be PC. PC is a set of perverted rules that bully people into what to think.
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josephjrobison超过 9 年前
&quot;Ayelet Waldman, where the author explained that she loved her husband more than her four children.&quot;<p>Recently did some pre-marital counseling where they recommend that you put your spouse above your children. Seemed really strange to me and counter-intuitive. I don&#x27;t know much about marriage at all, but if you think about it, the trickle-down effect does seem to make sense as setting an example is a good lesson for kids.<p>I think the takeaway is to keep a balance. Also, it&#x27;s not like Ayelet Waldman is a revolutionary, as other old-school practitioners seem to have been recommending that advice for years.
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ajmurmann超过 9 年前
I never understood the sentiment of valuing babies over all else. To me it always seemed obvious that fresh college graduates are most valuable to society, since we just finished investing a ton of money into them. Babies on the other hand are easily replaced.<p>I get this is mainly an emotional argument, but it&#x27;s still startling to me how opposite it is to the purely economic argument I made above. In fact usually people think I&#x27;m just trolling when I&#x27;m stating my opinion on the matter but I&#x27;m dead serious.
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such_a_casual超过 9 年前
For anyone who&#x27;s interested in the rise in divorce rates, I highly recommend the book &quot;The Two Income Trap&quot;. It basically tries to prove that the transition to dual income households damaged the financial security of many families. Pair this with the fact that the number one cause of fighting and divorce is money, and you have a better explanation than what this article provides.
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nommm-nommm超过 9 年前
Call me callous but I always thought one of the most important lessons a child should learn is &quot;its not all about you.&quot;<p>I am so amazed when I see parents nowadays devoting their entire life to making sure their children are spared of any tiny little inconvenience. These children will be very poorly adjusted and these parents are rarely happy.
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yason超过 9 年前
Being a foreigner I do recognize the dynamic described in the article on some level, merely by observing the American culture from the outside, but I hadn&#x27;t realized it&#x27;s such a serious and pervasive sentiment——or is it?<p>Maybe there&#x27;s a bias such as the overmothering behaviour being overpresented in the media yet most families and mothers are absolutely regular people as parents, and possibly feeling bad themselves about never reaching the impossible expectations set in the media?<p>I&#x27;d happily read personal experiences here to figure out how much truth there is in it.
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unabst超过 9 年前
1) This comparison to me says more about religion than it does about parenting. Unconditional love and devotion to your baby? The feeling is physical, and the baby is real. To be able to invoke the same feelings for a deity appears more magical to me than parenting, especially for those who have never experienced having a child.<p>2) American parenting isn&#x27;t killing marriage. Marriages are killed one at a time by the unique parents that choose to do so. And that&#x27;s the problem with statistical conceptualizations. It rarely applies to you for those dealing with it at the present. Only in hindsight do the numbers compile anyway, so it really isn&#x27;t all that helpful.<p>Anyone in a marriage knows that the will to be together is sacrosanct. Once two capable independent adults decide to part ways, nothing could be easier. The past could have been wonderful, and it&#x27;s easy to feel good about what was good. But for many couples, divorce is the choice, and often a good choice for them. In other cultures, there are more bonds holding couples together. In the US, it&#x27;s far easier to be independent or marry again. It&#x27;s easier to live your life on your terms than on that of social perception or social dogma. Is this a good thing? Who are we to judge? If you feel the stats are tilted in the wrong direction, then we can try and tip it the other way with our own marriages. But &quot;for the stats&quot; is not usually what crosses our minds when we&#x27;re not getting along.<p>This is a classic case of &quot;is as does&quot;. Nothing is killing anything. This is the shape of the new American marriage.
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brazzledazzle超过 9 年前
I love my kids and I think they each have unique things about them that make them great. I also think they can be amazingly compassionate and caring little people. But let&#x27;s be real: By and large kids are at least a little bit sociopathic assholes. It&#x27;s that behavior that you spend the better part of their early lives trying to excise from them.<p>Does anyone remember being a kid? Regardless of whether you were the victim, perpetrator, instigator or bystander just think back on how cruel bullies could be both verbally and physically.
martin1975超过 9 年前
We&#x27;ve spared the rod for too long, IMHO. Not saying we should abuse our kids or even reprimand them physically necessarily, however seeing a two year old as anything more than a terrorist whom cannot be negotiated with, can have detrimental consequences in their adulthood. Boundaries must be drawn early on or else....
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__david__超过 9 年前
It&#x27;s just anecdotal, I&#x27;ve found that my siblings and friends with kids are pretty up front about the negative attributes of their kids. So the &quot;parenthood religion&quot; isn&#x27;t necessarily universal.<p>I think it&#x27;s still a good article. It comes down to balance in the end, I think. Kids are just another thing in your life that you have to balance—more plates to spin. If you&#x27;re only spinning your children&#x27;s plates, it seems obvious that your job and relationship plates are going to eventually fall...
sakopov超过 9 年前
Marriage first, children second. If you and your wife&#x2F;husband make a happy couple, you will likely raise a happy offspring by creating warm, healthy and balanced environment.
codinghorror超过 9 年前
This does seem a little extreme. I don&#x27;t know many parents that are so child centric that they &quot;have nothing left to say to each other&quot;.<p>On the other hand if you compare parenting in th 1970s there does seem to be something to the argument that parenting went from an occupation to a professional sport, where people compete at it. I object more to the tiger parenting where kids have to be at the top of their class, get in to MIT or Stanford, all that pressure. It&#x27;s not healthy.
gonyea超过 9 年前
I don&#x27;t understand this at all. Blame divorce on kids? What?<p>If anything, the American spending habits are killing the American marriage. Financial issues are the source of countless divorces.
HillaryBriss超过 9 年前
I always thought &quot;Baby On Board&quot; caution signs were placed on cars and minivans as a courtesy to other drivers.<p>These signs let other motorists know that the sign-toting car will swerve wildly, stop unexpectedly and misbehave drastically because a self-centered, totally implacable baby is present inside, jealously and continuously demanding the driver&#x27;s attention by screaming, vomiting and pretending to fatally gag on nothing in particular.<p>Now I know I was wrong.<p>Thanks HN!
ausjke超过 9 年前
read history boys at 18 or even younger can be generals and nowadays they&#x27;re still treated like toddlers, our parenting method is wrong in my opinion, the key is that we babysit them too much for too long.
leroy_masochist超过 9 年前
I agreed with pretty much everything until the following:<p>&quot;Mothers are also holy in a way that fathers are not expected to be. Mothers live in a clean, cheerful world filled with primary colors and children’s songs, and they don’t think about sex. A father could admit to desiring his wife without seeming like a distracted parent, but society is not as willing to cut Ms. Waldman that same slack. It is unseemly for a mother to enjoy pleasures that don’t involve her children.&quot;<p>Uh, are we living in the same society? Moms are more sexualized today than they ever have been. Have you ever been to a daytime CrossFit class? Lisa Ann has been the most popular adult film actress for years, for God&#x27;s sake.<p>I agree there is much progress yet to be made in resolving a variety of gender-equality issues....but the argument that society&#x27;s increasing valuation of children is driving a newfound societal demand for Victorian prudishness in mothers seems to fly in the face of all available evidence.
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munin超过 9 年前
&gt; child-centric lives can lose touch with one another to the point where they have nothing left to say to one another when the kids leave home.<p>there are couples like this because the way they made kids + 2 careers work on middle class salaries is by dividing the day in half and each parent spends one half the day with the children and the other works. after ten years of this, you don&#x27;t actually know your spouse any more - they&#x27;ve been living some life, but not one that you&#x27;ve had time to be a part of between your own career and your children.<p>this seems like an equally plausible explanation for this phenomenon, because when you sacrifice that much it must be for <i>something</i> and when someone else insinuates that maybe the sacrifice wasn&#x27;t worth it, well, that would really piss you off...
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chefkoch超过 9 年前
An article about american parenting and a picture of new born babies in munich, germany?
ryanmarsh超过 9 年前
I would like to understand the relevance of this article to Hacker News. Perhaps it would be helpful if I could see a demographic breakdown of visitors: marital status, age, and number of offspring.<p>&quot;Once our gods have left us, we try to pick up the pieces of our long neglected marriages and find new purpose. Is it surprising that divorce rates are rising fastest for new empty nesters? Perhaps it is time that we gave the parenthood religion a second thought.&quot;<p>So divorce rates for empty nesters are the kids fault or kids are holding together marriages that were doomed before they left the nest? This article is garbage.
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sdegutis超过 9 年前
He&#x27;s generalizing way too much. There are so many different subcultures, which each have their own style of parenting, and even within them parenting varies person to person too much to generalize like this.
vlehto超过 9 年前
&gt;The origins of the parenthood religion are obscure<p>&quot;The Nineteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits any United States citizen from being denied the right to vote on the basis of sex. It was ratified on 1920.&quot;<p>Womens suffrage has to reverb through political sphere. As a whole it&#x27;s not good or bad, just different. Another thing coming from there: time passed since women gained vote seems to correlate with welfare spending.<p>I don&#x27;t think religious fervor can be avoided in a society. It&#x27;s just a matter of where it is directed.
pravka超过 9 年前
This <i>is</i> extreme. I read this article when it made the rounds last year, and I hated it just as much this time around. Disclaimer: I&#x27;m a parent, and I love it. I also love being in a relationship with someone I trust and with whom I can talk about &#x27;grown-up&#x27; shit.<p>Granted, there are definitely parents who hover, worry, or interfere with their kids&#x27;, but, at least in the circles I run in, these are the exception more than the rule and most certainly don&#x27;t represent parents (or marriages) at large.
curuinor超过 9 年前
A. Teller is probably more interesting to HN folks because he&#x27;s head of Google X. This seems incongruous a little bit and then you see how people in Palo Alto parent...
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eximius超过 9 年前
Interestingly, I&#x27;ve asked many of my female friends, including my last few girlfriends, given the hypothetical choice of saving their husband or their child, who would they save? Almost all of them said their children.<p>Ask the men, however, and it is almost always the wife.<p>And none of these folks were married or had kids yet. It is something ingrained from before that occurs.
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vezzy-fnord超过 9 年前
Not every day you see a major publication questioning natalism.<p>See also Judith Rich Harris&#x27; <i>The Nurture Assumption</i>: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;The-Nurture-Assumption-Children-Revised&#x2F;dp&#x2F;1439101655" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;The-Nurture-Assumption-Children-Revise...</a>
draw_down超过 9 年前
Being a parent today seems so awful, especially if you are expected to make the household income on top of doing 50% of the parenting.
doctorstupid超过 9 年前
I have a suspicion that these parents are using children as mirrors for their self-obsessions. The self is the true religion here.
bsder超过 9 年前
Hmm, wouldn&#x27;t have expected &quot;But think of the chiiiiildren&quot; to be a shitty argument even when applied to marriage.
dba7dba超过 9 年前
If this article were true, how can you explain lower divorce rate in Asian countries?<p>China? S Korea? Japan?
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programminggeek超过 9 年前
Perhaps replacing real religion with a false one is unwise.
hosh超过 9 年前
This isn&#x27;t a bad train of thought, though I wonder if this says more about Millennial narcissism than it does about the &quot;religion of parenting&quot;.<p>I think this has more to do with a kind of ethical posturing (&quot;I am holier than thou&quot;) than it is about a sacred cow. There are parents who will give up their own interests for the sake of their children&#x27;s interest, and not because there is peer-pressure to do so, or as a way to gain status within the community, or to be tyrannized by a cultural myth.<p>So thinking about it more, I think this article is BS -- not because the issues it raises are not true, but because it focused on the wrong thing.<p>There is also a spiritual and psychological transformation that takes place with becoming a parent.<p>Philosopher Ken Wilber had written extensively about modernity, and the way it throws pre-modern ideas such as the Great Chain of Being out the window, leaving members of modernity disconnected with their place in the universe. That&#x27;s not to say that pre-modern ideas where they just told you where your place is a good idea. On the other hand, existential angst and a constant wondering of your place in society, in the world, in the universe as a whole is a constant them in the cultures of modernity.<p>What does this have to do with parenting? The idea of the Great Chain of Being is a kind of stand-in, or abstractions, that Ken Wilber claims ties the pre-modern religion together. They disagree on a lot of things, but one thing that is present in the religious teachings is putting the human experience in context of the cosmos as a whole. The search for the meaning of life was a search for your origins, of where you came from -- a search for who you were &quot;born&quot; from. It might seem obvious that your body was born from the DNA of both of your parents; however, where did they come from? If you trace things up your lineage, you still come to the question, &quot;Where did life originate from?&quot;<p>To use the mythic language in the context of the Great Chain of Being, you were &quot;born&quot; from the universe.<p>To become a parent is to experience -- just a little bit -- of what it is like for the universe to give life and creation. It might be accidental or intentional. Someone might enter this stage with naivete or with great wisdom. There are a lot of things you might have railed against growing up, but now as a parent, it makes you think and wonder.<p>My point is that, if you were to strip away the ethical posturing and political correctness, what you are left with is not a re-examination of parenting, that there is a sacred cow to be slaughtered. Parenting is an re-examination of your self and your place and purpose within the universe. Your growth does not stop there. You might gain a better appreciation of how things come together.
swagv超过 9 年前
&quot;Think of the children&quot; is a cliché