Ask HN: How viable is it for a programmer to switch to a DVORAK keyboard layout?

I switched from Qwerty to Dvorak about 13 years ago, and frankly I don't recommend it. It's not faster, it's only marginally more comfortable, and it's mildly inconvenient. I still type Dvorak, but only because the hassle of switching back is not worth the possible tiny benefit.<p>The initial slowdown lasts only a few weeks if you work on your typing speed. When I first learned Dvorak I lost the ability to touch-type Qwerty, but within the first year I retrained myself and was able to switch back and forth (though I'm still not quite full speed on Qwerty). The only thing I can't do is use Vi keybindings in Qwerty. They seem to be in a different part of my muscle memory, which has never been retrained.

I'm about 115 WPM on QWERTY. I learned Dvorak about four years ago and got to about 80 WPM. If I kept going I think I would have eventually slightly surpassed my QWERTY speed.<p>However, what I found was Dvorak is designed for <i>English</i>; it predates programming. Most programming languages are designed with QWERTY in mind. I think Dvorak made that harder, not easier.

In my experience, yes.<p>I switched to Dvorak a couple years ago, and I've been glad I did. I used to have terrible pain in my wrists and forearms. For eliminating pain, switching to Dvorak was as effective as switching to an expensive ergonomic keyboard.<p>I went cold turkey, so I felt like a stroke patient for the first four days. It was a very awkward and frustrating feeling. Within a week, I could type fast enough to code. (Coding doesn't require a fast typing speed.) It took about two weeks to get back to email/IM speed.<p>I'm probably not as fast as I was at QWERTY (110 wpm -&#62; 90 wpm), but I'm certainly fast enough. If I do 15 years on Dvorak, I'll probably reach 110 wpm again.<p>I'd recommend doing an hour of typing exercises each day, and napping after each exercise to let it sink in. Each time I woke up from a nap, I was <i>much</i> better at the exercise from before the nap.<p>I wrote up my experience on my blog if you're interested:<p><a href="http://matt.might.net/articles/preventing-and-managing-rsi/" rel="nofollow">http://matt.might.net/articles/preventing-and-managing-rsi/</a>

Change keyboard layouts if you have ergo problems, like I did. Don't change for speed; you won't gain any.<p>If you are finding that your keyboard is slowing you down while you code, though, consider changing your tools -- get a new programming language, or a new IDE. A concise language like Haskell requires very little typing, but you end up thinking about each line for a long time. If you're using Java with a plain text editor, consider switching to Eclipse; I find that Eclipse ends up entering about a third of the code that I author.

You're not going to type faster with the Dvorak layout. Maybe piano lessons would be a better use of time than Dvorak practice.<p>The layout is better for programming, though, so I recommend learning it. Underscore and hyphen are in the perfect place, and having the comma and period keys on the upper row is nicer for the hands.<p>Dvorak is a lot better for Emacs, too, if only because C-x stretches out the hand instead of scrunching it up.<p>I've become ignorant of the benefits of Qwerty, though. For some period of time, I got annoyed by the positioning of Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V, but eventually I just got used to using two hands for those commands. That's the one specific lingering annoyance that I can think of.

I use Colemak (<a href="http://colemak.com/" rel="nofollow">http://colemak.com/</a>), and I'm up to about 70 WPM (measured at typeracer.com, not anything more scientific). Unfortunately, I did no QWERTY tests before switching, so I can't compare, but I doubt I was significantly higher.<p>I'd recommend it. There are a few modifications I'd make, but overall it's quite nice. They've written programs to check finger travel distance, and it beats QWERTY and Dvorak. A reason to choose it over Dvorak is that it keeps WAZXCVB in the same place, so those common Ctrl-keys are just as easy to press.<p>There's several versions for Windows, including one that can be run off a flash drive, and work without installation (<a href="http://colemak.com/Windows" rel="nofollow">http://colemak.com/Windows</a>), and Colemak is also built in to X on Linux.<p>Although depending what you're doing, switching to an alternate keyboard layout can be a problem. For example, if I were a sysadmin, going around to different computers and fixing them, it would be infeasible to switch, unless I put the time in to being able to context-switch my brain quickly, so I could touch-type both.

I'd suggest learning Colemak. It requires slightly less finger movement than Dvorak, the layout is more similar to Qwerty, and it's more convenient for typing commands like "ls", which requires two presses of the right little finger in Dvorak.<p>I can touch-type in Dvorak and Qwerty, and I've been meaning to learn Colemak.

I started using Dvorak out of curiosity more than anything. I've been using it for close to 4 years now, and I haven't noticed any speed gains.<p>It's inconvenient to use other peoples' computers; although, this is offset a bit by the amusement value of watching others try to use my machine.<p>The claims about ergonomics may be valid. My hands move a lot less when using Dvorak, but I can't speak as to whether the chances of RSI are reduced in any way by this, or if it provides any kind of relief.<p>Programming-wise, I haven't had any problems. The biggest concern there is that you might not be able to type for the first week or two.<p>Unless you have some significant reason to do so, I don't think I would recommend switching myself. I didn't see any significant gains, but your mileage may vary.

I made the switch to Dvorak over a 2-week holiday break just under 10 years ago. I may have eventually boosted my speed marginally, but I <i>can</i> say my hands don't get tired or sore typing for long periods as they did on Qwerty.<p>The only con I've run into is when I have to use somebody else's computer, like during a presentation in a meeting and I end up basically hunting and pecking on Qwerty. I get looks like, "this guy is a developer?" One time when I explained I was a Dvorak keyboardist, a participant asked if I also spoke Esperanto. (I don't.)<p>However, I highly recommend the switch just for the brain-remapping experience. Going through the learning process literally feels like a mental rewiring.

I think you'll see a wide variety of responses here and the only way to know for yourself is to try it. I used Dvorak for 10 years and it worked fairly well for me, though ctrl-c/v is clumsier because you can't do it with the left hand while mousing with the right.<p>I ended up going back to querty in order to revert to hunt and peck (painful) due to wrist issues. Now I continue with querty on a very low impact keyboard with a "pawing" approach. My typing is slower this way, but it appears that independent finger motion is what does me in.

These posts seem to come up periodically. Search hacker news for 'dvorak'.<p>I've used Dvorak for three years or so. I like it, and it hasn't caused me problems. (FWIW, I use Emacs.) I type 95ish WPM on Qwerty, and haven't cared to time my typing on Dvorak - I type fast enough, either way. I switched as a precaution for RSI (and just to shake up old habits), and the layout feels less awkward than Qwerty. Seriously, ; on the home row?<p>Some people seem to believe that the failure of the Dvorak keyboard proves their economic ideology. Whatever.

I used it for about 3 years, and it sped me up greatly when writing text, as in large blocks of English language text, it didn't help with programming at all. However before that I was only ever a 5 finger Qwerty typist, the speed gain from Dvorak came from forcing me to touch type properly.<p>2 things made me abandon dvorak and switch back to qwerty. Keyboard shortcuts. I never got the hang of mentally mapping between individual keys, so I when I had to push a Ctrl-X for example, I would have to stop and think for too long trying to work out which one X is.<p>The other thing was pair programming, was a pain switching back and forth when grabbing and relinquishing the keyboard. Sometimes pair programming meets enough resistance as it is without my stupid keyboard layout adding to it.<p>Another bonus, is that with qwerty you can work single handed, and e.g. hold the baby or eat or use the mouse or whatever.<p>So right now I am back to my 5 finger qwerty, its slower for example for things like this message, but the bulk of what I do is just typing in little bits of text and source code here and there so the speed loss is acceptable.<p>If I were typing in large blocks of English text for a living I would switch back to dvorak, but for a programmer qwerty is better.<p>Actually, if you are one of those programmers that use the mouse to use menu items, and never use shortcuts, you might be ok with dvorak.

Depends. I use the "programmer dvorak" layout and it's definitely less finger-work, but you miss a few things. Cut and paste is a bit more of a hassle. I look like an idiot on QWERTY keyboards because I haven't bothered to remember it. You can practice both but it's much easier/faster to just switch.<p>I'm happy with my decision because it's one short decision and affects the rest of my typing life - ie forever. The reduced impact on my fingers and wrists seems worth it.

As DavidSJ noted, typing in Dvorak doesn't make programming any easier. However, there are newer generations of Dvorak such as Programmer's Dvorak (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard#Programmer_Dvorak" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard#Prog...</a>) that attempt to make it easier. I've been using plain Dvorak, because I didn't learn about the alternatives in time. I don't think the switch has made much difference either way.<p>Oddly enough, the change that has caused the greatest increase in typing speed for me was starting to use my netbook keyboard. Most people will find this insane, but the smaller keyboard decreases finger travel, so as long as your fingers are small enough to continue typing with precision it ends up being a plus.<p>I think it's pretty meaningless to worry about typing speed being a productivity problem while programming. I can type at 120 wpm, but only 85 wpm while typing composed English, and about 35 wpm typing code. It's much more about brain latency. :)

Not to be snarky but I'm curious what you're doing that you need extremely fast typing for? I rarely find that typing is my bottleneck, it's usually my brain.<p>That said, why not give it a shot for a day or two? At worst, you'll realize it is going to take forever to regain speed - at best, you're well on your way to using the new layout.

I started using dvorak some years ago. I have since switched back. I don't think it helped my speed or my hands, and there were too many other costs which made it not worth while: having to set it up every time you reload your OS or start a VM, or change window managers, etc; it made the vi editor unusable, and while I mostly use emacs the ubiquity of vi makes it inevitable; using other computers in the lab became difficult, because they are shared with other people who used querty; it sometimes confused some programs and made them unusable; and so on.<p>I don't think there is a long-term gain to be had. Read <a href="http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors" rel="nofollow">http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors</a> for an account of the qwerty myth.

I began using Dvorak because I heard it could be helpful in reducing RSI symptoms. It took several weeks to become proficient, so I don't recommend learning Dvorak with a big deadline looming. As a programmer, the most frustrating aspect of Dvorak is cut/copy/paste because the X/C/V keys are all over the place. I imagine this would be a problem for hardcore vi users too. The benefit is that my fingers travel less, so typing hurts less.

As alternative do DVORAK you could use the NEO-Layout it has a third modifier for parenthesis an that stuff. But I think is it very dangerous to use a different keyboard layout. I used NEO quite a time and I got a bit faster than on qwertz. but sometimes i had to use other computers than mine and i this moments I were doomed. I had to use two fingers with looking on the keyboard. That was my reason to switch back.

I switched to dvorak 3 or 4 years ago after 15 or so years of touch typing on qwerty. At the time I switched I could type ~120 wpm with qwerty. It took very little time to get up to 60-70 wpm on dvorak. Now, after 3-4 years on dvorak, I can type 90-100 wpm. So my advice is similar to others here. Don't switch for speed. I have never had RSI problems, so I can't comment on that aspect.

I'm using a type-II (German) Dvorak with some custom modifications that map [({&#60;})]&#62; to Alt Gr+homerow (Linux)/Alt+homerow (Mac) and the caps lock key to Alt Gr and Alt, respectively. I switched for ergonomics (big improvement, no RSI pain at all) not speed; if my speed has improved, it's probably not by much, but then I don't think I've ever wished for faster typing speed.

It took me about two weeks to learn it well enough to where I could instant message my friends comfortably. I didn't notice any speed-up from the switch. I did seem to notice less stress on my fingers after a full day. Eventually I had to switch off of it because I found oscillating between QWERTY and Dvorak keyboards (for example home vs work vs friend vs lab) was annoying.

As others have said, the major benefit of Dvorak isn't speed -- it's comfort. Your fingers do a lot less work typing Dvorak than QWERTY.

Keep in mind though one thing;<p>If you use the terminal often, you'll be using TAB, and even if you switch to DVORAK you'll still have repetitive action.

Don't listen to the DVORAK people. All the things they say are just FUD with no scientific studies to back them up. There is no real evidence that it is better in terms of ergonomics or speed. If you do switch to DVORAK, you will have lots of inconvenience because the world is QWERTY.<p>The very real advantages of sticking with the world standard greatly outweigh any imaginary advantages of changing layout. Your best bet is to just get a better keyboard, physically speaking.

Check out Colemak. I don't think I type much faster with Colemak but it's much more comfortable.

I just use the 0 and 1 keys and have my IDE convert to corresponding character every 8 keypresses. This way I don't have to move my fingers around at all and only need two fingers. It's a minor speedup and lets most of your fingers rest all day.

Which language/IDE are you using?