TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

Market Rate is for Lobsters

120 点作者 mjbellantoni超过 9 年前

24 条评论

slackstation超过 9 年前
It&#x27;s funny that the term &quot;Market Rate&quot; is used but, the actual market is never really mentioned.<p>Ann is paid $170,000 in the Bay Area because that what all the other developers of her caliber are willing to exchange their time and expertise for.<p>A company would pay Ann $50,000 if it could. They only hire people who they think they will eventually make more from their labor than they will pay the person.<p>If you are Google, you will make roughly $1M per employee currently. For Software Developers that number is even higher, for Sr. Software Developers that number is even higher. The fact that how you get paid and how much value you generate don&#x27;t have much of an effect on each other is basic capitalism.<p>What&#x27;s smart is to be Ann, get a $170k salary and move to Costa Rica and keep the $170k because at the end of the day, she wouldn&#x27;t have been hired if she didn&#x27;t make more than $170k of value for the company.
评论 #10687633 未加载
评论 #10687871 未加载
评论 #10692531 未加载
评论 #10688120 未加载
dmd149超过 9 年前
A lot of these issues only arise if you&#x27;re assuming you need to create some sort of master pay system that is &quot;fair.&quot; We all know in practice that decisions like pay can be based on the environment at the the time of hiring, or other random variables.<p>For example, an engineer may get hired at a time when there is a high supply and relatively low demand, and is only able to negotiate a salary of $100k. 5 years later, because of the relative shortage of engineers, a junior engineer is hired at $130k, while the the more senior engineer is now only making $120k.<p>Of course, trying to come up with a master system to adjust for something like that will be impossible, as this article points out (using a hypothetical move from a higher cost location to a lower cost location). The company will not adjust the senior engineers salary until he puts up a fight and comes in with competing offers.<p>What this suggests is perhaps that the most effective and fair system is no system at all, one that remains dependent individual actors (or businesses) trying to get the best deal that they can for themselves. This is, in practice, what is happening now, but we wouldn&#x27;t have any expectation of every company trying to create some sort of formula to determine what is &quot;fair.&quot;<p>This means sometimes that you will be hurt by environmental factors (say you quit or get fired in a down market in your field), but other times you may cash in (maybe the senior guy at your company quits and you have the opportunity to leverage that into a much higher salary for doing his job).<p>Trying to make some master system that is &quot;fair&quot; and will work in all circumstances just seems silly. The market is perhaps a good arbiter of value on a broad scale over long time periods, but in more localized environments and shorter time spans, it is far more random. Thus, the best personal system in my mind is one in which we can take advantage of the randomness when possible, and learn to handle the inevitable downsides as well.
评论 #10687643 未加载
评论 #10687488 未加载
tyoma超过 9 年前
Discriminating based on location for 100% remote work is opening up a big can of worms. Since in this case physical location isn&#x27;t material to the work, paying less based on location could be inadvertently discriminatory. For instance, do localities with low pay just happen to correspond to where certain ethnic minorities live?<p>Other parts of the Buffer payment formula simply illegal. The practice of paying people more for each dependent [0] violates many localities&#x27; (e.g. Cook County, IL [1]) anti-discrimination ordinances.<p>0. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;open.buffer.com&#x2F;transparent-salaries&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;open.buffer.com&#x2F;transparent-salaries&#x2F;</a> 1. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jmls.edu&#x2F;clinics&#x2F;fairhousing&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;cook-county-human-rights-ordinance.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jmls.edu&#x2F;clinics&#x2F;fairhousing&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;cook-county-huma...</a>
评论 #10688118 未加载
NateDad超过 9 年前
I work remotely from outside Boston, a friend at work is remote from Argentina (I find the parallel to the article interesting). I make more than he does by a significant amount (very roughly similar to the salaries in the article).<p>I actually don&#x27;t know what would happen if I moved to Argentina. I presume my salary would get dropped. Maybe not.. depends on if I can convince someone else to give me an offer at my previous salary for remote work... but then what of my Argentinian friend?<p>I think all developers <i>should</i> get offered the same amount independent of location. As remote work takes off (and I think it will...), this will become the norm. Why? Because of how market works. If Google will pay me 170k to work from my house, then smaller companies need to start competing with that.<p>Ironically, the big companies are still way behind on this. I work at Canonical... our devs are all fully remote. I have people from nearly every continent working on my project. There&#x27;s very very little friction to remote teams, except sometimes you need to talk to someone who&#x27;s asleep. But that honestly is not usually that bad. You keep close teams in similar time zones and everything just works out. We use hangouts and irc and email... hell, the disincentive to have useless meetings probably saves us more time than we spend working around the relatively small problems remote work introduces.<p>(also, I&#x27;m kinda glad to get away from whiteboarding crap... a whiteboard is not a good tool for pretty much anything in development... a shared text window is almost always superior)
评论 #10687849 未加载
评论 #10688361 未加载
评论 #10690879 未加载
jrs235超过 9 年前
Commenter on the story has an excellent point: &quot;An even more absurd, but equally &quot;market rate&quot; scenario would be to pay Ann more because she wants to and has chosen to drive a luxury car, but to pay Sofia less because she chooses to take public transportation.&quot; - Philip Hallstrom
评论 #10687608 未加载
评论 #10687594 未加载
Alex3917超过 9 年前
Hiring strategies like this are often used as a legal pretext for paying women less than men. Economists call this the &#x27;marriage monopsony.&#x27;<p>The idea is that because men on average earn more money, or at least did until recently, women generally move when their husbands get a new job. This means that men are able to compete for the best wages in a global market, but women are only able to compete for the best wages in their local market. Which, depending on their industry, often means only a handful of options, and thus severely limited bargaining power.<p>See also:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;econpapers.repec.org&#x2F;paper&#x2F;izaizadps&#x2F;dp7343.htm" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;econpapers.repec.org&#x2F;paper&#x2F;izaizadps&#x2F;dp7343.htm</a>
评论 #10687495 未加载
patio11超过 9 年前
Cost-of-living adjustments are pretty de rigeur for global operations which hire out of a particular social class and want consistent ability to staff locations important to them regardless of variances in local cost of living. Consider, for example, megabanks.<p>Many software companies hire remotely and are rediscovering this. We don&#x27;t <i>need</i>, as a function of the business, to have someone in e.g. central Tokyo and central Kansas, but it turns out that we often end up having that, or the strong possibility of that given the ex ante distribution of individual candidates.<p>Almost every distributed shop I worked with has a formal or informal discretionary bump in &quot;the formula&quot; to accommodate high-cost-of-living candidates. It is generally closer to $10 ~ $20k rather than &quot;double.&quot;<p>American companies used to (and some foreign companies still) adjust salaries based on family size, too, which was also primarily a way to maintain access to desirable candidates for non-managerial work who had gotten an early start on family formation. (This was subsequently illegalized in the US, AFAIK, but &quot;city in which you live&quot; is not in general a protected class in US labor law.)
评论 #10687489 未加载
tptacek超过 9 年前
Wait, is it actually lawful to advertise salaries that vary with the size of employee families?<p>That seems like a really, really bad idea.
评论 #10687924 未加载
评论 #10687934 未加载
评论 #10692520 未加载
princeb超过 9 年前
I was about to write a long economic essay on why this can&#x27;t always work out, but I think the main thing here is that he is talking about a distributed team. in which case, (I presume that) the location has very little advantage unlike a company that is let&#x27;s say based in Sillycon Valley with sales efforts there as well elsewhere in the States, or development work that relies heavily on collaboration (as opposed to top down direction).<p>In which case, realistically Ann should get paid the same amount as Sofia. No problem hiring all Sofias if Ann&#x27;s situation in Sillycon Valley does not confer any benefit to the company at all.
评论 #10687483 未加载
paulddraper超过 9 年前
The remote work market will trend towards location-independence.<p>Differential pricing cannot last in a fungible market. The companies that offer $100k and get $300k value from each employee will eventually out-compete those that offer $100-200k and get $300k value.<p>It&#x27;s the same mechanism behind free markets defeating other forms of discrimination (I use this in the general, non-legal sense). If most companies pay women less because that&#x27;s the market, eventually the non-discriminating outliers will do better and the market adjusts to the more efficient reality.<p>The timing may be unknown, but the movement towards a non-discriminating equilibrium in fungible markets is not.
lopatin超过 9 年前
I actually think that Option 1, where Ann has her salary lowered after moving out of the valley is the most reasonable way to handle remote compensation. In other words, as an employee you get compensated by the quality of life that you can afford (how many goats you can buy regardless of what city you live in) instead of by some metric of how many dollars you are worth to the company.<p>The way I look at is that employment is a mutually beneficial agreement. Both parties should have the option to end the agreement when some part of the situation changes. When Ann moves and for some reason thinks that it&#x27;s unfair that she won&#x27;t be making an SF salary in Ohio, she can leave the company. Same goes for the employer when an employee moves from Ohio to SF. Saying &quot;you&#x27;re working remotely and we will pay you Ohio market rate but if you move to SF, we cannot afford that, so you will either have to accept Ohio market rate in SF or leave to find another company that will pay you SF market rate&quot; sounds like the only fair option to me.
评论 #10687931 未加载
abannin超过 9 年前
Changing pay based on location seems to be creating a strong incentive for fraudulent behavior. I&#x27;ll tell the company I&#x27;m living in San Francisco whilst living Buenos Aires. If they ever ask, I&#x27;ll say that I&#x27;m traveling for a month. Cost of living adjustments makes a lot more sense when the employee must be physically present.
amlgsmsn超过 9 年前
&gt;What happens next? More importantly, what should happen?<p>&gt;So, we punish Ann for moving by reducing her salary?<p>I don&#x27;t see a problem with reducing Ann&#x27;s pay. If rent is only $300 instead of $3000 the pay should reflect that.<p>If that sounds like a problem, imagine that the company pays rent or for hotel stay for visiting employees. If hotels cost $400 a night in SV and $40 a night in Argentina, should the company pay $400 a night in Argentina in order to &#x27;equalize the pay&#x27;?
评论 #10687418 未加载
评论 #10687434 未加载
sokoloff超过 9 年前
Option 1 seems the best of those constrained choices.<p>Until global and remote work is the norm and as productive as on-site work, there is a local market. And the local market is one of the factors you&#x27;re competing within&#x2F;against (employee&#x2F;employer perspective).<p>Setting one market wage worldwide as an employer ensures that you&#x27;ll not get much (any?) talent from the high-cost locations.
评论 #10687436 未加载
morgante超过 9 年前
I think it depends to a large extent on whether you&#x27;re paying for results or time.<p>The remote contracting market, especially for fixed rate contracts, is not driven by locations. It&#x27;s driven by who in the globe can do a particular job at a particular price, and there&#x27;s a wide variety in how much that translates to in &quot;goats&quot; for different developers.<p>Traditional remote jobs are still driven mostly by paying for a fixed amount of time working on the job per week. As such, they&#x27;re not hiring for a &quot;job to be done&quot;—they&#x27;re hiring you as an individual. To do that, they just need to pay more than the next best option, which is frequently determined by the local labor market.<p>Given that, option 1 makes a lot of sense, with the catch that you have to have a clear policy so it&#x27;s known ahead of time. Also realize that Ann might try to get a better replacement offer and then you&#x27;ll have to match to the &quot;new&quot; market for that location.
mahyarm超过 9 年前
Employers are customers that pay for semi fungible services. And like all people and organizations they will try to get the best price they can get. They want a certain amount and level of service and will try to pay the minimum to get it. Just like a person will try to get the cheapest plumber who is skilled enough for their needs.
hueving超过 9 年前
The author is failing to understand basic supply and demand. Just because the company doesn&#x27;t care that the developer is in Silicon Valley doesn&#x27;t mean there aren&#x27;t a ton of companies that do care and will pay a large salary for it. Either you compete with those companies and offer a high salary, or you will just exclude yourself from higher silicon valley developers.<p>Just because you don&#x27;t value location doesn&#x27;t make the location premium any less real. The simple fact is that there is a lot more demand for developers in the bay than there is in South America.<p>A company could certainly overpay the devs outside of SV so the numbers look the same, but it&#x27;s fiscally irresponsible.
lewisl9029超过 9 年前
One of the replies to a Buffer employee&#x27;s comment caught my attention:<p>&gt; Perhaps you are (inadvertently) either using location as a lever to underpay employees, or using it as an excuse to overpay people you like but perhaps do not justify the cost for the business?<p>I think this hits the mark. Companies that push heavily for remote work generally aren&#x27;t doing it because they genuinely care for the benefits it brings employees. They&#x27;re pushing for it because it saves them money over operating with an entirely local team (when local means a high market-rate area like SF), precisely because they can discriminate based on location when negotiating salaries.
prewett超过 9 年前
I&#x27;m curious what this guy&#x27;s view of free markets is (for&#x2F;against). A competitive global market should end up with the situation he complains about (developers in low-income countries being paid less). Buyers (companies) will try to buy as cheaply as they can, and sellers (employees) as expensive as they can. Developers in &quot;Buenos Tiempos&quot; can&#x27;t charge SF prices, because all the other developers would be happy to work for 10% less than SF prices, resulting in a downward spiral.<p>In a non-free market, such as a command economy, prices could be set by someone(s). But he doesn&#x27;t like the idea of an arbitrary entity (the company, in his case) setting the number of &quot;goats&quot; (living standard) you get paid. He wants developers to get to negotiate that. But they already are, and globally developers and companies have settled on the prices we have.<p>I suspect that some analysis would show that developers want a certain standard of living globally, and beyond that, they are pretty happy. I&#x27;d love to be paid the living standard of a millionaire, but I&#x27;m also okay to be paid what other developers are getting paid. Until all of us decide refuse anything less than living like millionaires, we&#x27;ll get paid a middle class salary.
rdl超过 9 年前
The military solves this by having &quot;Basic Allowance for Housing&quot; and COLA multipliers be VERY specific to &quot;duty station&quot;. Those absolutely do change if you move, and are separate from &quot;salary&quot;, so it&#x27;s not perceived as the same thing as reducing salary on move.
rch超过 9 年前
I think the formula makes more sense if you look at MRR from the perspective of workers in each market.<p>Salary may naturally vary by location, but wealth accumulation (in dollars, not goats) should be the same for equivalent contributors across the distributed organization.
评论 #10687707 未加载
redguava超过 9 年前
There&#x27;s an important thing that is not covered here. Currency fluctuations.<p>Assuming you pay people in their own currency (which is useful to make sure they don&#x27;t pay unnecessary fees, and also that they get a consistent pay each month). How do you keep salaries consistent globally?<p>Do you adjust them each month to compensate fluctuations? Sucks for those that just got a pay cut.<p>I don&#x27;t know the answer, I think the way Buffer does it is the best of the options I&#x27;ve come across so far. I&#x27;d like a better solution.
chris_b_超过 9 年前
Slightly unrelated, but I find the scaling factor based off experience interesting. Speaking as a junior, I am convinced that in 2 years or so when I would probably be classed as intermediate I will be worth far more than 10% more than I am now. Beyond that, I work at the moment with people who would be in the advanced&#x2F;master range who are I think are definitely worth more than 20&#x2F;30% more than me.
facepalm超过 9 年前
Come to think of it, supposing a company is OK with remote workers, why would they hire somebody in an expensive location?