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Let’s continue to build Product Hunt, together

94 点作者 csmajorfive超过 9 年前

24 条评论

minimaxir超过 9 年前
This is mostly a disappointing response that tries to deflect with &quot;hey, we do good stuff too!&quot; which is a PR move, not an argument against the events which caused the accusations against Product Hunt.<p>The highlighted quote and central thesis of &quot;Everyone’s upvote is equal — my upvote counts the same as yours&quot; misses the point that the <i>product selection process is opaque</i>, and the updated FAQ of &quot;we receive so may products per day!&quot; does not absolve PH of that. (it&#x27;s a 2 year old startup. They no longer get a pass on scalability issues).<p>Speaking of the FAQ, here&#x27;s the update discussing conflicts of interest:<p>&gt; &quot;Do I need to disclose that I’m invested or advising a company I post to Product Hunt? Product Hunt is a place for authentic, honest conversation and we highly encourage people to disclose any potential conflict of interest in the comment thread.&quot;<p>...which misses the point <i>entirely</i>. The conflicts-of-interest are with <i>the moderators themselves</i>, and friends-of-friends of the submitters. And given the culture of PH, very few people will disclose a conflict of interest willingly if it hurts them.<p>I&#x27;m not reassured that anything will change in the near future.<p>EDIT: Added my comment to the comments on the Medium article.
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tedmiston超过 9 年前
Some context for those who haven&#x27;t followed this in the past week:<p>1. There was a controversial Medium post 6 days ago accusing Product Hunt&#x27;s ranking system of being unfair amongst other things.<p>&gt; How Product Hunt really works (medium.com)<p>687 points by brw12 6 days ago | 222 comments<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10739875" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10739875</a><p>2. Then the same day someone started a signup sheet to build an open version.<p>&gt; Let&#x27;s Create a Better Product Hunt (docs.google.com)<p>222 points by BetterLaunch 6 days ago | 98 comments<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10741827" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10741827</a><p>3. Then someone built and launched it.<p>&gt; Show HN: Open Hunt – an open and community-run alternative to Product Hunt (openhunt.co)<p>1072 points by mhurwi 3 days ago | 176 comments<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10759879" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10759879</a><p>For most of the day on Friday, Open Hunt sat at the #1 spot on Product Hunt, and Ryan Hoover was a good sport about it.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.producthunt.com&#x2F;tech&#x2F;open-hunt" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.producthunt.com&#x2F;tech&#x2F;open-hunt</a>
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josephpmay超过 9 年前
What struck me from the HN thread on the article this is responding to was the vitriol directed towards Ryan. The general consensus seemed to be that he was a terrible person who was using Product Hunt to perpetuate the &quot;Old Boys Club&quot; in tech. From my experience dealing with him, that seems like the polar opposite from the truth. I don&#x27;t know him well, but he appears to be a genuinely nice guy who loves discovering new technology and wants to enable people to share their creations with a wider audience. I do believe the OC made a number of valid points, and Product Hunt needs to evolve so that insiders have less influence. Still, it saddens me that HN&#x27;s reaction was to make personal attacks and accusations. (most of the evidence given was anecdotal, too) I think Ryan&#x27;s response clears up the reasoning behind why Product Hunt is structured the way it is. I hope that in the future members of the HN community stop and think before they make personal attacks based on a one-sided Medium article.
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staunch超过 9 年前
&gt; <i>...The problem is not so much the money itself as what comes with it. As one VC who spoke at Y Combinator said, &quot;Once you take several million dollars of my money, the clock is ticking.&quot; If VCs fund you, they&#x27;re not going to let you just put the money in the bank and keep operating as two guys living on ramen. They want that money to go to work.</i><p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;paulgraham.com&#x2F;startupmistakes.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;paulgraham.com&#x2F;startupmistakes.html</a><p>This is an example of A16Z killing a startup. They only care about about the big hits, so they&#x27;ll happily dump too-many-millions into small products like ProductHunt and RapGenius, trying to force them to Get Big Fast.<p>ProductHunt should&#x27;ve been operated by two people for 5+ years but they raised too much money. Communities can&#x27;t really be bought with money. You have to grow them organically and authentically over many years. Hacker News and reddit are perfect examples to emulate.<p>Digg is an example of the VC way of doing things.
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matt2000超过 9 年前
I just wanted to suggest to everyone here who is building a product this thought: product hunt didn&#x27;t launch on product hunt. It was a simple email test which found an audience and grew from there. That&#x27;s the opposite of hoping to launch on some list of top products and grab an audience.<p>It&#x27;s not a bad thing, but you don&#x27;t need it. And if you&#x27;re counting on it having a major impact on your traction, you probably shouldn&#x27;t be.
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kevindeasis超过 9 年前
People are beginning to move to: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.openhunt.co&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.openhunt.co&#x2F;</a><p>Just look at this HN post: Show HN: Open Hunt – an open and community-run alternative to Product Hunt (openhunt.co) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10759879" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10759879</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10741827" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10741827</a><p>How about their ranking system: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10739875" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10739875</a>
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empressplay超过 9 年前
All you have to do is look at Ryan Hoover&#x27;s &quot;recommended&quot; comments on his own post to get a sense of his position on things. This is a weak attempt at damage control that shows absolutely no desire on his part to address the central issue with Product Hunt: those people (in particular, those who aren&#x27;t PH employees) who can arbitrarily post startups to the front page with no differentiation from those who made it there via popularity.<p>Of course they won&#x27;t change it. The whole &quot;game&quot; is to provide a system that on the surface looks meritocratic, but actually isn&#x27;t, in order to give visitors the impression that the arbitrarily posted products &#x2F; sites are popular (because they must be to have made it to the front page), and thus drive traffic to them. It&#x27;s dodgy.
jlukic超过 9 年前
My experience with Product Hunt.<p>- Front page of HN, check.<p>- Top trending weekly product on GitHub. Check.<p>- Ability to get the in-crowd at Product Hunt to approve of my product for voting on their site. NOPE.<p>The response was the same canned one that others have mentioned. AZ buying a product news outlet to advance their other startups is a vague accusation, but in my world not in the tin-hat territory whatsoever.
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swanson超过 9 年前
My big takeaway from the original post was that &quot;early insiders&quot; controlled the frontpage of ProductHunt. This post confirms that &quot;early insiders&quot; can still post straight to the frontpage. I see data from this blog post that is presenting an argument that the &quot;early insiders&quot; are a small percentage of the currently upvotes, but I don&#x27;t understand why someone would opt for viral effects if you could just have an &quot;early insider&quot; post it directly.<p>When I view the Product Hunt frontpage, I see nothing to indicate that a submission has been &#x27;boosted&#x27; and that seems to be an area that could be improved if &quot;early insiders&quot; will continue to have the boosting ability.
tonydiv超过 9 年前
Product Hunt faces a difficult challenge. Many people from the software&#x2F;startup world are egalitarian, yet Product Hunt is a business. They must find a balance.<p>A more democratic approach to this would work much better than the insider model they&#x27;ve adopted. Hacker News isn&#x27;t a business, Reddit is, yet both are egalitarian. There does exist a balance that works.<p>They&#x27;ve solved the problem of sorting good&#x2F;curated products based on upvotes, but that is not the true problem.<p>The harder problem is ensuring new products can reach the front page fairly. Reddit would not be the amazing community it is today if there were a curation team at Reddit determining what should be on the front page. If I were PH, I would focus on this problem.<p>I would urge them to address the issues that the community is bringing up. His post does not seem to indicate any change will occur.
ascendantlogic超过 9 年前
Am I the only one that read (most of) this and didn&#x27;t really see any direct responses to the criticisms leveled at it last week?
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FussyZeus超过 9 年前
Literally addresses NONE of the issues presented in the piece he&#x27;s responding to. No one questioned the upvote system and how much each vote counted, though I&#x27;d say that&#x27;s still dubious. When insiders exist to get your product on the home page and no one who doesn&#x27;t use that method gets on the home page, and you have coordinated launches using SPECIFIC TIMES that it will be on the front page, you don&#x27;t get to come out in a medium post with a cute cat and go &quot;But, we didn&#x27;t do that!&quot;<p>As I&#x27;ve said previously on here I&#x27;m a capitalist and I respect greed, but I don&#x27;t tolerate liars. If you going to build and insiders promotion site, then do it, and own it. Don&#x27;t backpedal when someone calls you out.
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hoodoof超过 9 年前
The guy is a politician. So many smokey words and mirrors, so little straight talk.
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thetmkay超过 9 年前
I think PH suffers from an identity crisis.<p>It started off as a curated newsletter and became a portal. It never fully embraced a community-driven approach (as evidenced by their opaque curation policy) nor a pivot to a more search engine&#x2F;yelp-like community. In essence, they have yet to conquer their scalability problem: how to maintain quality while increasing quantity of products. It&#x27;s a bloomin&#x27; hard problem to be fair to them.<p>What I am most disappointed by is that with network effects, it is beneficial for a community as a whole to have one dominant portal. The one thing you want for a dominant community platform is transparency (there&#x27;s an argument for decentralization too), a requirement that has yet to be met.
sqldba超过 9 年前
Wow what a crock of shit. They got called out for back room deals and ignoring products; and it&#x27;s only after a revolt ready to make their entire operation obsolete that they publish a half hearted PR response that admits no responsibility at all.
rjvir超过 9 年前
&gt; Once the product has received a significant number of credible upvotes (those that aren’t manipulated by voting rings) from the community, will be promoted to the homepage within 48 hours.<p>&gt; Everyone’s upvote is equal — my upvote counts the same as yours — and ultimately upvotes determine what rises to the top of Product Hunt.<p>To me, this was a direct contradiction.
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jrometty超过 9 年前
I encourage everyone with unanswered questions to participate in Product Hunt&#x27;s LIVE chat. If you feel like a point wasn&#x27;t adequately covered, drop by and ask Product Hunt&#x27;s team directly. (link is from the article) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.producthunt.com&#x2F;live&#x2F;product-hunt-team" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.producthunt.com&#x2F;live&#x2F;product-hunt-team</a>
byoogle超过 9 年前
I’m unsure as to why the Product Hunt outrage in particular. <i>Every</i> major distribution platform (the press, social networks, app stores, even Hacker News) favors insiders. Has PH been presented as a solution to this problem? (I never thought so, but perhaps I haven’t been paying such close attention.)
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OoTheNigerian超过 9 年前
Meh.<p>This is a response to the traction openhunt is getting. Another version of &quot;I&#x27;m sorry we got caught&quot;.<p>Ryan, maybe had good intentions at the beginning then got carried away with the &quot;stardom&quot; and of course, with $6 million in the bank, a bit of arrogance took hold.<p>His initial response to the Medium article was &quot;lol&quot;, while that of the posse was &quot;fuck the haters&quot;. He forgot his remit was building a massive community and not a small clique.<p>Competition is good. It makes people humble.<p>Product Hunt cannot change. It&#x27;s &quot;community&quot; is vested in ensuring things remain the same. Just like fat cats.<p>Reminds me of a certain logo.<p>Coincidence?<p><i>Edited: $6million not $16 million series A</i>
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alexatkeplar超过 9 年前
My only interaction with Product Hunt was through the email harvester they ran on 17 December 2014 (a few months after joining Y Combinator) which found our company&#x27;s public info@ email address and subscribed it to Product Hunt.
shahocean超过 9 年前
Oh come on! I had thought you are better than this! Another PR stunt?
DodgyEggplant超过 9 年前
It&#x27;s digg all over again
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hoodoof超过 9 年前
If you want to protest, just don&#x27;t submit your new startup to ProductHunt.
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jsneedles超过 9 年前
Hi All, I&#x27;m new here and I&#x27;m familiar with PH. I&#x27;ll come right out and say it - I&#x27;m a big fan. I think people are looking for a point-by-point response to the earlier piece... and that&#x27;s unrealistic. If you look at the message being sent here, it&#x27;s valid and honest. Some thing are addressed directly &quot;your vote counts the same as mine&quot; dispels the direct link myth. The change in % of &quot;insider&quot; posts making it to the homepage has substantially decreased meaning you don&#x27;t NEED to be or know one of these people to make it.<p>I&#x27;ve been on both sides - I&#x27;ve coordinated a launch with the help of PH &amp; I&#x27;ve launched my own things at my own times. I&#x27;ve had great success and some flops doing both. There are pros &amp; cons. But again... the frequency of this is certainly decreasing.<p>It&#x27;s not that you need an insider, but if you really want to have a &quot;launch&quot; they help... If you want to share something cool you made, and think it&#x27;s good, and garner some useful feedback... Post away!
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