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Sun, Oracle, Android, Google, Mozilla and JDK Copyleft FUD

161 点作者 g1n016399超过 9 年前

13 条评论

defenestration超过 9 年前
Some quotes to quickly understand what is going on.<p>Andreas Gal, Former CTO of Mozilla, wrote yesterday: &quot;... a curious event got my attention: A commit appeared in the Android code base that indicates that Google is abandoning its own re-implementation of Java in favor of Oracle’s original Java implementation. I’ll try to explain why I think this is a huge change and will have far-reaching implications for Android and the Android ecosystem.&quot; Source: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;andreasgal.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;01&#x2F;05&#x2F;oracle-sinks-its-claws-into-android&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;andreasgal.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;01&#x2F;05&#x2F;oracle-sinks-its-claws-into...</a><p>Bradley M. Kuhn, in charge with the task of enforcing the GPL for Linux, wrote today: &quot;Thus, my conclusion about this situation is quite different than the pundits and link-bait news articles. I speculate that Google weighed a technical decision against its own copyleft compliance processes, and determined that Google would succeed in its compliance efforts on Android, and thus won&#x27;t face compliance problems, and can therefore easily benefit technically from the better code. However, for those many downstream redistributors of Android who fail at license compliance already, the ironic outcome is that you may finally find out how friendly and reasonable Conservancy&#x27;s Linux GPL enforcement truly is, once you compare it with GPL enforcement from a company like Oracle, who holds avarice, not software freedom, as its primary moral principle.&quot; Source: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;ebb.org&#x2F;bkuhn&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2016&#x2F;01&#x2F;05&#x2F;jdk-in-android.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;ebb.org&#x2F;bkuhn&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2016&#x2F;01&#x2F;05&#x2F;jdk-in-android.html</a>
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guelo超过 9 年前
It&#x27;s weird how uncommon the knowledge that Google lost the lawsuit is. They lost it in appeal at the Federal Circuit. There is a remaining &quot;fair use&quot; decision from the lower courts but Google doesn&#x27;t have much hope there.<p>Google&#x27;s current approach using Harmony&#x27;s clean-room API implementation has been basically deemed illegal. Google will likely have to pay millions if not billions to Oracle for copyright infringement. And they will continue to be infringing as long as they are distributing their current Android systems.<p>P.S. The law of the land is now that when you create an API it is copyrighted.
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wbillingsley超过 9 年前
A bit undermined by speculation like &quot;we should expect Oracle to...&quot; and &quot;despite Oracle&#x27;s expected nastiness&quot; being so central to the analysis.<p>If we&#x27;re talking speculation, then I&#x27;m guessing the next piece of news might be an announcement that Google is buying Java and Oracle&#x27;s Java team. The line of thinking goes...<p>- Despite currently looking like losing a lawsuit, Google has just cosied closer to Oracle&#x27;s version of Java. (Something&#x27;s afoot...)<p>- Despite currently looking like winning a lawsuit, and Java 8 being very well received, Oracle&#x27;s rumoured to have just let its Java evangelists go, and to be less interested in Java than it used to be. (They look willing to sell...)<p>- JavaOne was apparently a bit light on announcements (Could something other than just work on Java 9 be distracting them and making them put some plans on hold for a mo...)<p>- Having a litigious competitor own a key piece of Android is surely a pain point for Google that gets more painful as Android keeps storming ahead. Buying it would make that pain go away.<p>- Google&#x27;s looking at possibly having to pay some money in the lawsuit, and will likely want to get something for it<p>- Oracle&#x27;s looking at an uncertain return from the lawsuit, hasn&#x27;t extracted that much revenue from Java itself, and might just be happy to take some cash for someone else to be custodian of it from here on
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azakai超过 9 年前
Why is there &quot;Mozilla&quot; in the hn title here, but not in the article&#x27;s title? (nor the article body, except for a small aside about the MPL license, in parentheses)
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kevingadd超过 9 年前
I find it hard to believe that the author of this post didn&#x27;t know better than to refer to Andreas as a &quot;pundit&quot;. I have my many disagreements with him personally but it&#x27;s ridiculous to treat him as a tech media talking head when his opinions on the subject are clearly based on multiple years <i>shipping an Android-derived operating system on phones</i>. Not to mention Firefox for Android, which I think he had some involvement with as well. The post as a whole seems to be intended to frame disagreement with Mr. Kuhn&#x27;s PoV as coming from uninformed rabble and media talking heads.<p>The post itself is well-written and thoughtfully argued, so it&#x27;s disappointing that it&#x27;s undermined by the author&#x27;s choice of tone. If anyone is qualified to share their detailed thoughts on the OpenJDK&#x2F;Android move, former&#x2F;current officers of Mozilla are high on that list.
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po1nter超过 9 年前
I&#x27;m wondering why doesn&#x27;t Google ditch Java entirely and create something like XobotOS[1]. I know it wouldn&#x27;t be a popular move but at least the devs will get a decent language to use (C#) and users will have a better performing OS[2]<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;xamarin&#x2F;XobotOS" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;xamarin&#x2F;XobotOS</a> [2]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.xamarin.com&#x2F;android-in-c-sharp&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.xamarin.com&#x2F;android-in-c-sharp&#x2F;</a>
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rms_returns超过 9 年前
The important thing is that Java should not be allowed to be owned and trolled upon by companies. Java belongs to the community that developed it collectively, not to a single corporation that paid bucks to purchase it from Sun.<p>And Java IS open source. Lets not allow Oracle to monopolize and troll the API spec. If we allow that to happen, it will open a floodgates of patent trolls across the United States and the victims could be innocent startups who have just begun struggling and innovating in the market.
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mtgx超过 9 年前
&gt; Eventually, (slowly but surely) GPL enforcement will adjudicate the widespread problem of poor Linux license compliance — one way or the other<p>So when is that going to happen? The Linux Foundation just stopped funding the Software Freedom Conservancy, in a concerted effort with others to kill it and any GPL enforcement.
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invalidname超过 9 年前
Another response to the article with a somewhat different angle available here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.codenameone.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;debating-brendan-eich-over-android-openjdk-move.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.codenameone.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;debating-brendan-eich-over-...</a>
baroa超过 9 年前
So Oracle supports OpenJDK. They even hope to ditch their flavor of Java in favor of the open one. What&#x27;s the fuss?
pron超过 9 年前
This entire thing may be confusing to a lot of people, as many are already confused by what the entire Android court case was about. The confusion is not accidental. Google&#x27;s very extensive PR machine has put in <i>a lot</i> of resources to make sure people are confused (what Oracle puts into lawyers, Google puts into PR). But just to lay down a few facts:<p>Since 2006&#x2F;7, Java has been available under two licenses: commercial and open-source. The commercial license allows free implementation of the Java APIs and has a full patent grant, but requires conformance with the Java TCK (Technology Compatibility Kit) <i>and</i> requires payment if used in mobile devices (this was Java&#x27;s main revenue stream for a long time). It is also possible to license the JDK source from Oracle under the commercial license for a fee. The same JDK is also released under the GPL. This license is completely free and unencumbered (the GPL itself prohibits any restrictions). It does not require compatibility (unless you want to call the result &quot;Java&quot;), and has no field of use restrictions. It also has a full (implicit) patent grant. As this article notes, OpenJDK&#x27;s copyleft is not viral either (certainly not more than Linux): applications and libraries running on top of it are unaffected due to the &quot;classpath exception&quot;. You can do <i>whatever you like</i> with Java when you use it under the terms of its open-source license: use the implementation, use just the APIs and implement it yourself, use the whole thing or just small portion, pass the TCK, not pass the TCK, fork it or not. You are even allowed to use it to implement .NET.<p>Google has had both of these options for licensing Java (at least since May 2007, but that was still before Android was released). Until very recently, Google chose neither. They couldn&#x27;t reach an agreement with Sun on the fee for the first license, and didn&#x27;t like the second (possibly because they feared that phone manufacturers would reject a GPL runtime, classpath exception or no). Instead, they chose to argue in court that the APIs are not Oracle&#x27;s to license[1].<p>What has changed now? Perhaps Google realized that given Android&#x27;s success, phone vendors would swallow whatever license Google gives them. In any event this is a win for everyone: Google wins because they will need to spend less resources on maintaining Android, Oracle wins because Java will now be on Android, and Android and Java developers win because they&#x27;ll have a better runtime and greater compatibility. This is contingent, however, on Google not forking OpenJDK too much beyond compatibility; the license does allow them to do so.<p>Yes, the mainline OpenJDK project is steered by the JCP (Google, Intel, Twitter, and IBM are all members) and Oracle does have veto power, but that is just the project governance. Anyone is free to fork OpenJDK, as long as they don&#x27;t call the result Java (unless they fork and choose to pass the TCK). The situation is no different from other large open-source projects.<p>[1]: I have no opinion on whether or not Google&#x27;s actions were legally justified (I do have an opinion about their ethics), but I do know that unlike Google&#x27;s PR line, the ruling has little or no effect on the industry. Google&#x27;s actions with Java&#x27;s APIs were quite different from any other API implementation that I know of. Also, the ruling does not apply to web APIs. See discussion here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10811011" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10811011</a>.
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dingo_bat超过 9 年前
All these complex licences (GPL2, GPL3, LGPL, Least GPL, etc) do nothing except create confusion about which license to use. I have found a simple solution that allows me to focus on my work and not on the legalese; I just use the MIT license.
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throwaway_forcl超过 9 年前
I&#x27;m not sure how common knowledge this is, but Oracle is quietly going after any company of any significant size which uses Java in their software <i>at all</i>. It&#x27;s not just the embedded stuff either; simply using Java in enterprise software is enough to bring them running with their team of lawyers threatening a lawsuit. These suits are being settled at large sums without raising any external indication that this is going on. It&#x27;s not the big guys or the startups that have to worry, it&#x27;s the mid-sized companies that know a long, protracted lawsuit with Oracle will not end well for them.
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