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Paypal froze our funds, then offered us a business loan

299 点作者 caser超过 9 年前

23 条评论

jusben1369超过 9 年前
There&#x27;s very little thought put into a discussion on &quot;why&quot; PayPal froze those funds. PayPal says &quot;based on what we&#x27;ve seen in the past there&#x27;s a high probability that you&#x27;ll collect a lot of money for an event and then not execute that event. If that happens, we PayPal will be on the hook to make those payments to those disgruntled end users. So we can either 1) Simply refuse to work with you or 2) risk share with you by keeping enough in your account so that we can reduce our exposure to those types of claims&quot;<p>If you chose a business model with an elevated level of risk then you&#x27;ll have extra expenses associated with that.<p>I really dug that email. It&#x27;s encouraging that it triggered what sounds like a very real internal discussion amongst multiple people there vs being getting completely ignored.<p>I know I sound like a PayPal apologist - I&#x27;m not! I know there are some very real horror stories out there. It&#x27;s just that they&#x27;re probably one of the few payment companies that would enable this business to actually be a business and asking $20K in surety when you&#x27;re _on the hook too_ isn&#x27;t as mean spirited as it first appears.
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quasse超过 9 年前
I&#x27;m just starting to need a real solution for taking regular payments and Paypal didn&#x27;t even cross my mind as a serious contender. The business model they&#x27;ve cultivated engenders similar levels of trust to car salesmen and the people who charge lost equipment fees at Comcast.<p>I&#x27;m looking at Paysimple for their integrated invoicing and transaction handling but I&#x27;d love to hear what other people use.
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sageabilly超过 9 年前
Is PayPal still around simply because, as one of the earliest and one of the biggest payment facilitators on the Internet, it&#x27;s become ubiquitous enough to not have to worry about being displaced? I cannot for the life of me understand how it&#x27;s still a thing since every week there&#x27;s yet another story of &quot;PayPay did Shady Thing that a bank couldn&#x27;t do and now I have no money and no way to get my money back.&quot;<p><i>Why is PayPal not dead?</i> In all my research I have never been able to come up with a good answer to that question.<p>[<i>edited to add</i>] Aside from consumer ignorance of other options, that is.
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URSpider94超过 9 年前
This is not surprising to me at all, nor do I see anything nefarious in this. PayPal operates two different business units, a payments processing business and a commercial loan business. Both operate on separate P&amp;L&#x27;s, and with different risk requirements.<p>Let&#x27;s consider two different situations:<p>1. PayPal&#x27;s payments processing group worries about the risk of your account, and thinks about applying a hold on your funds. Just before doing so, they call the loans group, who says that they&#x27;d be perfectly happy to give you a loan for the amount of the hold, you&#x27;re good for it. So, Paypal as a whole decides not to place a hold.<p>2. Paypal&#x27;s payment processing department worries about the risk of your account, so they place a hold on your deposits. In parallel, the loan department decides you&#x27;re a good credit risk, and so you apply for and receive a loan for the same amount as the hold.<p>In case 1, if those payments do indeed get charged back, Paypal is forced to try to come after you for the balance. Unfortunately, this debt won&#x27;t have very strong legal standing, because it&#x27;s not backed by a loan agreement. They might or might not get their money back. It also puts them in the position of having to chase you for the money.<p>In case 2, if the payments get charged back, Paypal is sitting on the funds already, and can just claim them. This might cause you to default on the loan, but that&#x27;s your problem now, not PayPal&#x27;s. They are also making interest on the amount of the loan.<p>It&#x27;s pretty clear that Case 2 is MUCH better for PayPal, and only marginally worse for you, assuming that you are right about the payments all being good -- you are only out the interest cost on the money. What you seem to be arguing is that PayPal should be &quot;nice&quot; to you and go with Case 1.<p>The other fact that you might be missing is that nearly all traditional payment processors would require some kind of reserve account in situations like this, and even if they weren&#x27;t holding the money, they require that they have withdrawal privileges on the account into which the funds deposit so that they can claw back money if needed. PayPal is by no means unusual or abusive in holding funds, it just seems that way because they don&#x27;t pitch this as part of their up-front marketing.
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CPLX超过 9 年前
The OP of this story was collecting money in the U.S. for events and lodging that had not yet happened in third world countries, and presumably was remitting a healthy amount of money from those transactions to multiple small accounts in said third world countries.<p>Their business was brand new and had no extensive transaction history with Paypal or anyone else. The customers providing the funds in question were most likely paying with credit cards and would be able to charge back the funds if the events didn&#x27;t take place or were unsatisfactory.<p>I find it impressive that Paypal was willing to work with them at all given the above fact pattern. Many, many payment processors simply wouldn&#x27;t be usable at all.
Osiris超过 9 年前
I have a small side business that does &lt; $1000 a month in PayPal transactions, but I regularly withdraw money from my PayPal account to my bank account specifically because I don&#x27;t trust leaving my money in PayPal.<p>Why don&#x27;t larger business do more frequent withdrawals from PayPal to a proper bank?
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maxmcd超过 9 年前
The fraud department at PayPal has to exercise a large amount of caution because if they make a mistake they lose more money.<p>The lending department at PayPal can be more opportunistic because they can potentially turn a profit with a successful loan.<p>I&#x27;m not saying that either of those actual departments are correct or that their decisions are sound, but even at a perfectly run organization wouldn&#x27;t this paradox be somewhat present?
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akeck超过 9 年前
Friends who do a lot of Ebay transactions have always recommended getting a dedicated checking account for Paypal, and then setting up regular transfers out the account, so that one&#x27;s ability to pay bills and vendors will not be impacted by a Paypal issue.
Animats超过 9 年前
Why use PayPal for credit card payment processing above the petty cash level? If you&#x27;re up to $30K, you should be getting merchant services from a real bank, not an intermediary. If you&#x27;re not using eBay, PayPal provides few benefits.
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iaw超过 9 年前
I&#x27;ve avoided having to trust PayPal with any sum of money since I first heard of their freezing practices years ago. Back then (not sure if this has changed) they weren&#x27;t regulated like a bank so they could get away with some pretty shady behaviors.<p>I always suspected that they were taking the collateral and making short-term investments, this is the first time I&#x27;ve ever seen them try to do both with the same company at the same time...
ErikAugust超过 9 年前
Speaking from a nightmarish personal experience moving hundreds of thousands with PayPal over the years, it is astounding to me that it took so long for someone like Stripe to come along.<p>It is not astounding they have quickly blossomed into a valuable company.<p>Why did it take so long?<p>And what about eBay? Someone should consider taking that on.<p>Letting a huge business being an incumbent without competition for 15+ years in the web world seems so absurd.
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kayfox超过 9 年前
I am in a position to hear a lot of comments on Paypal from freelance artists, and I often hear of them freezing someone&#x27;s account over some transaction or for no expressed reason at all. I often wonder how they can get away with this, I would imagine if a bank did this they would be in hot water quickly with a regulator. It all seems a bit shady.
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jadoti超过 9 年前
Nice of them to loan you your money with interest... if they were an honest company, maybe they&#x27;d offer to use the business LOC as collateral and free up your funds, dipping into the credit should the risk become real and your funds get charged back...<p>... if they were an honest company ...
ChuckMcM超过 9 年前
Generally good advice when considering PayPal is to recite to yourself &quot;PayPal is not a bank, PayPal is not a bank, ...&quot;<p>But they do like money, and they like to move it around creatively and create ways to use other people&#x27;s money to make money for them.<p>One of the reasons they aren&#x27;t a bank is they don&#x27;t do (and are not allowed to do AFAICT) fractional reserve lending. In that sort of scenario this story makes a lot of sense, you freeze(or seize) assets from your customers, and then loan them out to other customers who pay you interest on repaying that loan, and if they default you presumably keep the other customer&#x27;s money to cover that &quot;loss&quot;. Sort of 100% reserve banking.
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patsplat超过 9 年前
This is frustrating, but not necessarily a conflict of interest.<p>Any type of events business carries a significant risk to a payment processor. Funds are paid up front before services are delivered. If the event doesn&#x27;t happen there will be a demand for refunds.<p>This isn&#x27;t necessarily due to malfeasance on the part of the promoter. Imagine there was a conference booked in the World Trade Center for September 12th.<p>Boil it all down and what PayPal is doing is charging a higher percentage fee (aka the base fees plus the interest on the loan) for a business they deem to be more risky. Entirely fair.<p>Now for the way they presented those fees - absolutely unacceptable customer service.
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jamisteven超过 9 年前
Think OP is assuming Paypal has departments that understand how eachothers decisions affect the other, PP is a huge company and I doubt malice was actually intended, but nonetheless pointing it out to them was necessary.
nqzero超过 9 年前
regardless of what division is making the determination, either the company is risky or they&#x27;re not. charging them interest to access the money that is rightfully theirs is extortion, plain and simple
shorsusan1超过 9 年前
I am considering on using Paypal in my startup business. How do you feel about it? I attended a startup conference 6 months ago. Paypal was also there claiming that there will be solutions for startup business. I don&#x27;t know if this is a special case. How can I avoid my capital from being frozen? Singing &quot;Let it go&quot;?
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a3n超过 9 年前
&gt; Since we were a risky account, they said they needed to hold on to the remaining $20,000 for up to six months.<p>I would think just about any new business is some flavor of &quot;risky.&quot; I don&#x27;t see why any new business would use paypal knowing that.
pmontra超过 9 年前
Partially off topic but what would you recommend for transactions in the 1 to 10 Euros range in Europe? PayPal and Stripe have fixed costs per transactions that are quite substantials on the amounts at lower bound of that range. Thanks.
horsecaptin超过 9 年前
Clearly the used car sales department forgot to check with the customer service department whether the customer is actually happy with the ongoing relationship.
timshivcc超过 9 年前
Honestly, I just went stealth and operate numerous accounts.<p>If PayPal wants to freeze my funds, let them. Play with fire, your going to get burned.
Kinnard超过 9 年前
I think this is more common than people might realize. In fact, I think it&#x27;s fundamental to how the predatory lending industry(READ: banking industry) operates. David Graeber&#x27;s DEBT is a good read: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;libcom.org&#x2F;files&#x2F;__Debt__The_First_5_000_Years.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;libcom.org&#x2F;files&#x2F;__Debt__The_First_5_000_Years.pdf</a>