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Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

141 点作者 Excluse超过 9 年前

18 条评论

chiaro超过 9 年前
This sure seems to be HN&#x27;s flavor of the month (and possibly for good reason). One thing I haven&#x27;t seen mentioned is the fact that markets are created, not discovered. LLC&#x27;s and Delaware C-Corps didn&#x27;t materialise out of the aether, nor did the property rights regarding their shares. I dislike the concept of &quot;deserving&quot; at the best of times, but under this light, those that are the most successful reap their rewards largely in relation to how this system is established. Taxing large profits is no more &quot;unnatural&quot; than protecting the right to these profits in the first place.<p>That said, with regards to the article, appealing to businesses as moral actors is only so effective. A business acting unethically but legally is most rectifiably a problem with the law, rather than the business.
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ekianjo超过 9 年前
Yet poverty as a whole is decreasing according to numerous measures.<p>Plus their report contradicts the world bank observations: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;ourworldindata.org&#x2F;VisualHistoryOf&#x2F;Poverty.html#&#x2F;Global-Income-Distribution-2011" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;ourworldindata.org&#x2F;VisualHistoryOf&#x2F;Poverty.html#&#x2F;Glob...</a><p>Which is not surprising since Oxfam has a clear political agenda.<p>EDIT: world bank poverty report, clearly showing the decreasing poverty rates globally: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.worldbank.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;dam&#x2F;Worldbank&#x2F;gmr&#x2F;gmr2014&#x2F;GMR_2014_Full_Report.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.worldbank.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;dam&#x2F;Worldbank&#x2F;gmr&#x2F;gmr2014&#x2F;G...</a>
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bobby_9x超过 9 年前
What about actors? The top 1% of actors make more than the rest of the actors combined. Is this fair? Should we tell Tom Cruise that he needs to take 80% of his paycheck for the next Mission Impossible movie and redistribute it to the actors that are not well-known and aren&#x27;t making as much?<p>How about something more relevant, like startups: Should it be fair that only 1% of startups make more than any of the other startups combined? Unicorns like Uber and Airbnb should take their profits and spread them around to startups that failed!<p>Yes, there is inequality, but I don&#x27;t necessarily a bad thing. It&#x27;s the natural form of most free marketplaces and systems.
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srgseg超过 9 年前
I feel the serious point Oxfam are looking to make is let down by a definition of wealth that is very distorted.<p>Their headline is based on a report by Credit Suisse [1] which defines net worth as: &quot;the marketable value of financial assets plus non-financial assets (principally housing and land) less debts.&quot;<p>Consider two people who will earn exactly the same amount of money at every stage of their lives. But one is 18 and has just started working, the other is 65 and has just retired. Is the 65 year old really 1000x richer than the 18 year old, because the 18 year old has saved $100 so far and the 65 year old has had time to save $100,000? Is this really 1000x inequality? For the purposes of determining inequality, these people should be considered equal, because it&#x27;s simply the case that one person is older and has had more time to save.<p>A fair assessment of a person&#x27;s wealth, at least when determining fairness and inequality, should include more than this. It should include an estimate of their future earnings potential plus the social security&#x2F;welfare state entitlements and state pensions that they are entitled to.<p>Otherwise you have hundreds of millions of people in the West with negative &quot;wealth&quot; who in reality will enjoy a far wealthier life than someone in the developing world with small positive financial assets and no debt.<p>Someone with $100 in assets and no debt does not get to claim that they are single handedly &quot;richer&quot; than the combined net worth of tens of millions of university graduates that each have a total career earnings potential of millions of dollars, but who each still have outstanding student debt and thus negative net worth.<p>Also see this article on the &quot;the wealthy living paycheck to paycheck&quot; [2] which points out that people that will enjoy very wealthy lifestyles are spending rather than saving their income, and therefore really are rich yet will be written off as being far &quot;poorer&quot; than others in terms of financial assets.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;publications.credit-suisse.com&#x2F;tasks&#x2F;render&#x2F;file&#x2F;index.cfm?fileid=C26E3824-E868-56E0-CCA04D4BB9B9ADD5" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;publications.credit-suisse.com&#x2F;tasks&#x2F;render&#x2F;file&#x2F;inde...</a> [2] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;business&#x2F;2015&#x2F;dec&#x2F;25&#x2F;wealthy-americans-living-paycheck-to-paycheck-income-paying-bills" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;business&#x2F;2015&#x2F;dec&#x2F;25&#x2F;wealthy-amer...</a>
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lifeisstillgood超过 9 年前
&quot;The existence of a billionaire is a clear indicator of one or more market failures&quot;<p>I have been banging this around my head for a while since PG&#x27;s infamous essay. There are plenty of reasons to see wildly successful people as talented, special etc. But nowhere near enough to believe them to be superhuman. Nor as rare as might be expected.<p>Becoming a billionaire (or member of top 1% or what have you) is not something that can only be achieved by a certain fraction of the population, like being over 6&#x27;6&#x27;<p>There must be market distortions that fail to share out the vast wealth of the Russian oilfields? Similarly for not sharing the license fees of MSWord or the markup on Amazon books.<p>Maybe PG is right and we need thousands more entrepreneurs out for themselves, and we shall see the inequalities of the world sort themselves out through &quot;market&quot; action.<p>Which would mean still we need politicos action (why not more female entrepreneurs? What about highly regulated industries?)
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brandonmenc超过 9 年前
&gt; Members of this global elite had an average wealth of $2.7 million per adult in 2014.<p>I know plenty of people in their 60s who simply busted their asses at middle-class jobs while saving their pennies who are members of this &quot;global elite.&quot;
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rboyd超过 9 年前
Strange to see a Rothschild speak out against inequality.<p>(FTA) Lady Lynn Forester de Rothschild [...] said: “Oxfam’s report is just the latest evidence that inequality has reached shocking extremes, and continues to grow. It is time for the global leaders of modern capitalism, in addition to our politicians, to work to change the system to make it more inclusive, more equitable and more sustainable.&quot;
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jqm超过 9 年前
2.7 million puts one in the richest 1%? Unexpected, but I guess it makes sense. There are still a lot of very poor in the world.<p>I started to think &quot;injustice&quot; when I saw the article, but 2.7 million will barely buy a nice house in some parts of the US. I suppose in some ways wealth is still relative.<p>I guess I&#x27;m more curious about what percentage of world assets the .001% control.
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tokenadult超过 9 年前
A good response to this[1] was posted here on Hacker News, but so far it languishes unread, with too few upvotes to promote it from the new submissions page. Take a look for a specific response to the article kindly submitted to open this active thread.<p>[1] &quot;What Oxfam won’t tell you about capitalism and poverty&quot;<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blogs.spectator.co.uk&#x2F;2016&#x2F;01&#x2F;what-oxfam-wont-tell-you-about-capitalism-and-poverty&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blogs.spectator.co.uk&#x2F;2016&#x2F;01&#x2F;what-oxfam-wont-tell-yo...</a>
Paradigma11超过 9 年前
On the other hand every single person of the richest 90% owns at least as much as the whole poorest one-third does.<p>Heck, even i do. So i own as much as 2 400 000 000 people do in total. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.oxfam.org&#x2F;sites&#x2F;www.oxfam.org&#x2F;files&#x2F;file_attachments&#x2F;ib-data-wealth-having-all-wanting-more-190115-en.xlsx" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.oxfam.org&#x2F;sites&#x2F;www.oxfam.org&#x2F;files&#x2F;file_attachm...</a><p>At least a court helped the poorest person on earth last year: &quot;In March 2014, a French high court upheld Kerviel&#x27;s prison sentence but ruled he would not have to repay €4.9bn&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;J%C3%A9r%C3%B4me_Kerviel" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;J%C3%A9r%C3%B4me_Kerviel</a> So there is still hope left.
fiatmoney超过 9 年前
If you simply conflate &quot;richest&quot; with &quot;most powerful&quot;, this is already the case, and has been for most of human history. It&#x27;s unclear why we should care about monetary wealth specifically more than other dimensions of power.
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ps4fanboy超过 9 年前
The global economy is in a transitional period, computerization has made inequality rise, but also Women working has led to higher inequality among families, Robotics and further automation of current industries will make things much worse for the people currently alive. There isnt a clear solution, what will ultimately happen is people working less and a higher percentage working in higher skilled jobs.
T2_t2超过 9 年前
So I assume everyone downloaded the PDF AND the excel? Good, so lets get to the numbers:<p>My problems:<p>1. Percentages: the article talks in percentages, as if something tangible was lost from 50-45%. Here is the table of wealth by year in total vs the bottom 50%:<p>year Total($bil) 50% ($bn)<p>2000 $117,052.00 $702.31<p>2001 $113,390.00 $793.73<p>2002 $122,757.00 $859.30<p>2003 $147,566.00 $1,032.96<p>2004 $166,018.00 $1,162.13<p>2005 $171,182.00 $1,198.27<p>2006 $195,941.00 $1,763.47<p>2007 $220,043.00 $2,200.43<p>2008 $189,877.00 $1,708.89<p>2009 $205,656.00 $1,850.90<p>2010 $216,084.00 $2,593.01<p>2011 $224,382.00 $2,243.82<p>2012 $238,089.00 $2,142.80<p>2013 $255,620.00 $1,789.34<p>2014 $263,242.00 $1,842.69<p><pre><code> +224.89% +262.38% </code></pre> The wealth of the bottom 50% had tripled by 2010, even 2012, and has fallen off in the years since 2010. Taking the 2014 reduced numbers, that is still a 262% increase in 14 years. In contrast, the TOTAL economy has grown 224.89% since 2000. Why is THAT not the story? &quot;Global share of bottom 50% growing faster than the world economy&quot; doesn&#x27;t fit the narrative perchance?<p>Besides which, isn&#x27;t that F^$%^&amp;$ing amazing! That the bottom 50% areover 2 and a half times richer. That is world changing for the people it affects, surely? Yet the story is the rich have more. Really, &quot;Rich have more&quot; is the story? I can&#x27;t wait for &quot;water is wet&quot; as installment 2.<p>More importantly, why is the story not the drop from 2010 to 2014? What was that?<p>So I sought out the source: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;publications.credit-suisse.com&#x2F;tasks&#x2F;render&#x2F;file&#x2F;?fileID=60931FDE-A2D2-F568-B041B58C5EA591A4" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;publications.credit-suisse.com&#x2F;tasks&#x2F;render&#x2F;file&#x2F;?fi...</a> and it appears that the wealth in the bottom 50% is made up mostly of mostly of two things (see figure 8, page 12): 1. Poor nations - e.g. Africa and, largest of all, India which accounts &quot;... for over a quarter of people in the bottom half of the distribution&quot;. 2. Ruch Americans in debt - the tail seems skewed that way, to me at least.<p>If we take just India, they had a massive currency exchange problem vs the USD since 2010. In 2010, it was 46.21 rupee to the dollar, in December 2014 it was 62.8 (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.x-rates.com&#x2F;average&#x2F;?from=USD&amp;to=INR&amp;amount=1&amp;year=2014" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.x-rates.com&#x2F;average&#x2F;?from=USD&amp;to=INR&amp;amount=1&amp;yea...</a>). That is a drop of about a third in value. That is likely at least part of the reason for the wealth drop.<p>2. The percentage projection carries on from what looks like an historical anomaly between 2010 and 2014. If the currency exchange reverses course, and India claws back even 10% of the gap, the percentage to the 1% will likely reverse to some degree.<p>3. The data set for the rich changes dramatically. The minimum to be top 80 in 2014, would be top 15 in 2004. Zuckerberg appears out of nowhere in 2011, adding a few billion (his wealth versus the 81st position) to the total from nowhere. If Wallmart&#x27;s founder had survived, we&#x27;d have a top 80 with 4 more billionaires in it, making it an even larger a total. That&#x27;s not really indicative of anything (other than rich people can die too).<p>Look, I get Oxfam&#x27;s political agenda, but I think a +262.38% increase in wealth for the bottom 50% - even after what looks like a currency disaster since 2010 - is amazing in and of itself, and any comparison to an arbitrary set of extremely wealthy is just political machinations.
mercer超过 9 年前
So, I know this is a complicated issue that has been discussion with a lot of emotion and even anger. I find it very difficult to make any sense of it all, because it strikes me that in every discussion some crucial things are mixed up so much that the entire discussion strikes me as unproductive most of the time. In single back and forth&#x27;s, we mix up:<p>- the meaning of words - the specificity of the argument (say, actor income versus a country versus the global economy) - the ethical assumptions underlying our argument - the actual facts<p>Personally I&#x27;ve been raised, developed my thoughts and occupy an environment that can be considered <i>strongly</i> on &#x27;the left&#x27; of the spectrum (yes, also vague). That said, I really try to properly <i>understand</i> the &#x27;other&#x27; side(s).<p>But it&#x27;s difficult, considering that my <i>entire</i> world view is built on assumptions, arguments, lines of reasoning that are built on &#x27;facts&#x27; and &#x27;knowledge&#x27; that is &#x27;leftist&#x27;. My left-wing viewpoint is like a realist painting while my right-wing viewpoint is more like a crude child&#x27;s drawing. So <i>obviously</i> I&#x27;m more likely to reject the latter, and judge its proponents harshly, because it seems so stupid and primitive.<p>So I guess my question is... How would I best go about developing a more nuanced picture of the &#x27;other&#x27; side(s) so that I can try to find &#x27;truth&#x27; that is not conveniently aligned with my upbringing and current viewpoints, however difficult (or impossible) that might be?<p>I&#x27;ve been trying to subscribe to blogs that don&#x27;t align with my views. I&#x27;ve also been trying to look into philosophical views that seem to further this, but I find it difficult because I don&#x27;t really <i>know</i> what axioms underly these views so alien to me. So I don&#x27;t always know where to look. I&#x27;ve been trying to respectfully read economic or social arguments (including pg&#x27;s recent essay) that I have some fundamental issues with, but it all falls apart through sheer complexity and ambiguity (see: the discussions here where half the time people seem to discuss what pg <i>actually</i> said). And whenever some discussion <i>does</i> go into &#x27;facts&#x27;, I&#x27;d really have to read the sources where half the time I would need to study that particular field to even understand the abstract, not to mention that I can&#x27;t really check the accuracy of these facts in the first place (and we all know that the further we get from the &#x27;natural&#x27; sciences, the more ambiguous and slanted these facts become).<p>Here&#x27;s the thing. I was raised an Evangelical Christian, and now I&#x27;m (basically) an atheist. The difference between these two paradigms is huge. I&#x27;ve <i>believed</i> both these sides with full conviction, so I know in quite a bit of detail how to defend many beliefs from either side. I feel that as a result, I can often pinpoint at which point in an argument things diverge, and I also feel I can reasonably choose in which direction to go. It also feels a bit schizophrenic and uncomfortable.<p>But the only reason I can do this is that I&#x27;ve basically studied theology and I&#x27;ve been immersed in this now-alien point of view for about 25 years, not counting the period of overlap where I was very confused about matters.<p>Obviously I cannot do that with an issue such as this. So what <i>can</i> I do, aside from try to assume that the viewpoint alien to my own is probably not as stupid or superficial as it seems? How can I assess a commenter&#x27;s viewpoint when I don&#x27;t have any knowledge of their background, honestly, or expertise as a <i>person</i> (which I do feel is important. we <i>need</i> to take shortcuts at some point).<p>It&#x27;s incredibly frustrating, but I don&#x27;t want to get stuck in convictions that I just happen to have chanced into, basically.
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TazeTSchnitzel超过 9 年前
Massive income inequality hurts economic growth. Why? The rich don&#x27;t spend (much of) their money, they hoard it.
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jevgeni超过 9 年前
Let me rephrase the title using absolute values:<p>&quot;Richest 73 Million People Will Own More Than All The Rest by 2016&quot;
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hkmurakami超过 9 年前
Well the richest 1% have definitely lost more than the rest (proportionally) over the last 2 weeks as well...
monochromatic超过 9 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=pdR7WW3XR9c&amp;feature=youtu.be&amp;t=53s" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=pdR7WW3XR9c&amp;feature=youtu.be...</a><p>Rising inequality on its own is not a problem.
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