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Ask HN: Is startup equity just snake oil?

21 点作者 Spiritus超过 9 年前
Is equity just an excuse for start-ups to motivate lower salaries and bad work hours, which in the end don't yield much anyway?

14 条评论

AureliaDalek超过 9 年前
Think of them like lottery tickets. Yes, they could be worth millions of dollars, but the chance of that happening is very, very slim.<p>The tradeoff for the bad hours&#x2F;pay is that you&#x27;ll get more autonomy in your work and the ability to really influence the product. To me, this is why you should work for a startup. Certainly not for the stock options.
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cballard超过 9 年前
Yes.<p>First of all, they&#x27;ll probably just tell you how many shares you get. So, you don&#x27;t even know what percentage of the total you have! But even if they did tell you, they won&#x27;t show you the cap table, so there&#x27;s no way to even evaluate the worth, since you can&#x27;t see how much the investors are going to be paid out first. And even if you did know that, the board can just print more shares and make yours irrelevant anyways, so you <i>still</i> can&#x27;t tell what they&#x27;re worth.<p>So, assume they&#x27;re worthless.
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brianwawok超过 9 年前
If you make your own company and get 40% of the equity or whatever.. not snake oil at all!<p>If you join a late stage startup and get a good salary and a few shares... not snake oil, but not going to be life changing. Base your decision on the salary and what you will be working on.<p>All the people in the middle offering you 50% of market pay plus 1% of a small company? Ya that is pretty much a scam to get cheap labor, don&#x27;t fall for it.
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ThrustVectoring超过 9 年前
I only ever value equity in terms of &quot;percentage of the founder&#x27;s share&quot;. That is, if it isn&#x27;t the same kind of thing as what the founders have, then there isn&#x27;t anyone negotiating on your side to keep it valuable, so it&#x27;s probably not worth anything.<p>The golden question is &quot;if you get an exit that makes you $10m, how much money does that mean for me?&quot;
bobby_9x超过 9 年前
There are many issues with getting equity when you are not investing money:<p>1) rounds of investments will dilute your shares 2) you have no control over the company and are now in the precarious position where the situation could get really bad, but you don&#x27;t want to leave because you don&#x27;t want to lose your shares (I&#x27;ve been there) 3) If the company is overvalued at some point, takes an investment, and then sells for less than that value, the investors will get paid back first (further reducing your chances at getting a payout).<p>Is it snake oil? Not necessarily, but it&#x27;s a huge risk and you shouldn&#x27;t think of it as your path to riches.
poof131超过 9 年前
Yes, more than changing the world, fake equity is what start ups are all about. The goal is to take the fake equity and try to make it real. As an example, a friend built a prototype in a couple months and with the help of someone else, he was able to raise a $1M note at a $10M cap. With 50% of the company he now has $4.5M in equity. But it’s all imaginary. Without an exit it means nothing.<p>Employees are the ones who need to watch out for this, because the founders turn around and try to pretend the equity is real. An offer of $200k of this fake equity isn’t really $200k. And for you to ‘get rich’ and 10x your $200k, you will need to 10x the founders $4.5M of fake equity. All the founders need to do is see an exit and they are rich since the initial seed round gives them millions.<p>So don’t worry about $ numbers, just the percent of the company. If it is early, understand the cap table and fight for your fair share. And don’t stop fighting, especially if you are adding value. Remember the founders got millions of ‘fake equity’, they can and should share. Don’t forget that the ebullient founders see a payday on most any exit whereas you won’t. I like the advice that you are either learning or earning, and if you aren’t founding you most likely are learning.<p>Also, don’t let people talk you far below market salary since you aren’t just giving up big company salary, but also bonus and stock. Most of all though, you need to trust the founders since it’s easy for them to screw you and easy for them to screw everyone if they don’t make the right moves. Even if you build a good product and get customers, if there are bad ratchet clauses everyone but the investors will get screwed.<p>This is geared more toward early stage. For later stage you aren’t going to see the cap table or anything else. The main thing for mid to late stages is growth: users, customers, and revenue. You are stepping on to a rocket ship priced for perfection, if it goes off trajectory your equity is going to be worthless, so don’t feel obliged to stay and help out of charity. At this point the founders have likely already made millions, the senior employees are probably going to be okay, but the noobs are going to get burned.<p>YC and others have done a lot to help founders. Unfortunately, no one has done much to help employees. So pay attention and do your best to find people you trust. Remember, founders have every incentive to sell you the golden dream, since it’s likely to be golden for them.
rudimk超过 9 年前
No, not always. It&#x27;s something a lot of startups misuse. But I wouldn&#x27;t say that&#x27;s how everybody does it. I know some startups that offer equity with a slight pay cut, just to gauge your motivation, and bump up your pay soon after.
mesozoic超过 9 年前
Pretty much. Would you work as hard or take as much of a paycut if you got virtual lottery tickets instead (lottery tickets that even if you win may not pay out since VCs have a higher priority stake in them)
forgottenpass超过 9 年前
<i>Is equity just an excuse for start-ups to motivate lower salaries and bad work hours, which in the end don&#x27;t yield much anyway?</i><p>Pretty much. Unless you have your lawyer (not <i>a</i> lawyer, <i>your</i> lawyer) tell you otherwise assume equity as compensation is worthless.<p>There are times and places where equity isn&#x27;t meaningless, but that&#x27;s not at Valley tech startups. There it&#x27;s mostly used to mislead impressionable youths that haven&#x27;t been burned yet.
relaunched超过 9 年前
It&#x27;s less snake oil as it is an inheritance from a long, lost relation. Stock isn&#x27;t something you can bank on, unless the company is knocking on the door of an IPO and then you are probably looking at RSUs anyway.<p><i>I&#x27;m gonna do some math that probably doesn&#x27;t apply to a new grad, but certainly could apply to an experienced SE&#x2F;SWE&#x2F;etc.</i><p>Look at it this way, if you are making $175k, with a 15% bonus and $55k of vesting stock at Google (&quot;Alphabet&quot;). Let&#x27;s just assume the stock doesn&#x27;t fluctuate over the course of the year. We&#x27;ll call your total comp $255k real money (forgoing 401k and other benefits for simplicity).<p>Now, you join a well-funded seed startup. They pay you $150 (even in these crazy times this is a high startup figure). Congratulations! You just became an investor. I&#x27;ll save you the spiel about paying for a better environment, accelerated learning, purpose, etc...You have invested 105k a year, in exchange for .1-.25 percent of the company, if it&#x27;s still a pretty small startup. Oh yeah, and year one&#x27;s money gets paid mostly towards your stock cliff; you paid to accrue the first years stock until the end of the year (if you make it to the end of the year). If you leave in month 11 you get nothing. However, at month 12 you get the stock from year one, then each month you earn 1&#x2F;48 of your total equity stake.<p><i>A few more simplifying assumptions. Let&#x27;s say your annual adjustments at BigCo and your annual adjustments at startup are equal, which they won&#x27;t be. Also, there&#x27;s no opportunity cost.</i><p>Next year you pay that $105k again. Then, the company raises a few rounds of capital, over the next 5 years. All in all you&#x27;ve been at the company for 7 years and paid $735k for (let&#x27;s call it) .1% of a company that was worth $5 million post at the time. But, you&#x27;ve been diluted 30%, 20%, 15% and 7% in subsequent rounds, and then maybe re-upped a little along the way. You have 3 times your initial grant worth of stock, because you were really good at your job, so now you own .000189 % of the company.<p>If the company has a $500 million dollar exit, with no preferences, you get $94,500. But, with all the rounds you raised, $500 million is probably gonna trigger a liquidation preferences. Let&#x27;s say it took $150 million VC money to get your exit. Well, you get $66,150. Damnit...<p>Well, that doesn&#x27;t seem worth it. How big does the company have to get to make it worth it? Well, I haven&#x27;t heard of any $10,000,000,000 acquisitions. So, let&#x27;s say you IPO and after your lockup period, you leave the company and sell all your stock. You&#x27;ll have a tax advantageous $1.89 million. Off all the startups you hear about, and many you don&#x27;t, how many $10,000,000,000 exits have you heard about? And what is that risk factor worth?<p>Now, why do people do startups? Well, let&#x27;s say your startup is Facebook. After your lockup period, you had a market cap of ~$100,000,000,000. Your .1% is now worth $18.9 million. Or if you had an original .25%, $47.25.<p>I hope you get the point.
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gesman超过 9 年前
It&#x27;s an effort to sell you expensive lottery ticket.<p>You may or may not choose to play this game but odds are not in your favor.<p>My suggestion is to postpone options&#x2F;equity discussion up until after the salary discussion is settled. Let it be icing on the cake rather than replacement for the part of the cake.
juhq超过 9 年前
The thing is, it&#x27;s all upside down. If a startup wants to get a experienced person to the team, they should offer more salary and then some options&#x2F;shares instead of lower salary and possibility of options.<p>I really don&#x27;t understand why an experienced person would take a pay cut.
lacker超过 9 年前
No, that is too simplistic.<p>When you get a job offer with an equity component, you should be able to estimate its value. Figure out what you think the company is worth, figure out what % of the company you own, and multiply those two numbers together.<p>I have had friends get job offers where the equity component was worth less than $1000, and I have had friends get job offers where the equity component exceeded the salary component. It really just depends on the startup. So don&#x27;t just dismiss the equity component as worthless without digging into it a bit more.
staunch超过 9 年前
I&#x27;d compare it to being part of a team in a poker tournament. You walk away with a share of the winnings or you walk away with nothing.